The Salim-Javed Story

I chanced upon this old interview of Javed. Very interesting! The Salim-Javed Story

When the Salim-Javed partnership dissolved at the height of its success, one expected the two arrogant writers to lash out at each other. They didn't. Their silence was mysterious. There were no accusations, no explanations. But the rumour mills buzzed. Some attributed the split to Shabana's entry into Javed's life. Others attributed it to Javed's desire to establish himself as the No 1 writer... but alone! Though Salim did speak out to the press, Javed kept a stiff upper lip and let more controversies build around him. However, what was more mysterious than the "silence" was the fact that Javed went about signing films with top banner-makers whom he had worked for earlier in collaboration with Salim - and all on his own terms, leading the industrywallahs to believe that he had secretly worked out his plans before the famous split. That had upset Javed. He wondered why he could not pursue his own ambitions without being termed manipulative and conniving. He allowed me to interview him then on a series of controversies surrounding him, only because I was a friend and I would represent him honestly. Like he himself said: "At least, the interview will be fair." And, while I kept my side of the bargain, he didn't, as he proved in his answer to my last question. Read on and take a walk in the past with Javed Akhtar. Is it true that Shabana is the cause of your split with Salim? Why are you maintaining silence over it? It is ridiculous to suggest that Shabana is responsible for our split. It was my decision and I take full responsibility for it. We parted ways professionally, and I wouldn't like to discuss the reasons for it. Even today my relationship with Salim saab is so strong that it is unimaginable that Shabana or anyone else can be responsible for coming between the two of us. Whatever the world might say, I still feel a deep sense of respect, love and gratitude towards Salim saab. I wouldn't be where I'm today without him. Though our professional relationship has ended, our feelings for each other have remained the same. It may sound sentimental, but I know one thing for sure that tomorrow if I'm in trouble, Salim saab is the only one, YES, the only one who will go out of his way to help me out. After your split with Salim, people within the industry are waiting for your first release to asses your work. Does this make you feel you're beginning your career all over again-like a newcomer? No, I don't feel like a newcomer. If I do I'll have to feel like a very expensive newcomer. I have been paid more than I deserve for these films. At the same time, I know that people are waiting to see my forthcoming films like Betaab, Mashaal and Duniya with a certain amount of curiousity. That makes my situation not only thrilling but a bit scary as well. People say that in the Salim-Javed team, Salim was the PRO and Javed, the writer. How true is this statement? This is not only an insult to Salim saab but also to our long association. Anyone who makes such statements is either mean or foolish. When there is a partnership, there is an equal sharing of money, credit and acclaim. Salim saab and I shared these equally, because we contributed to our films equally. I remember when we were together, people would often ask, "Who writes what?" and we would reply, "One of us writes the nouns and the other the verbs." Do you feel that you have now started depending heavily on the casting of your film and that the actors have become bigger than your scripts? Rishi Kapoor-Dimple Kapadia-Kamal Haasan in Saagar and Dilip Kumar-Anil Kapoor in Mashaal? Casting is very important. But actors cannot guarantee a film's success. A particular cast can raise the expectations of an audience but what ultimately matters is the film itself. The story of Saagar was written long before the actors were signed on. While I'm happy that the casting has caused a sensation, what makes me happier is the fact that each one of them suits the role perfectly. Even if I say so myself, Saagar will be a beautiful film and I have great expectations from it. Being a close friend of Rajesh Khanna, why did you opt to write Dimple's come-back film? Rajesh Khanna and I have never been close friends. We share a cordial relationship. Whatever has happened between Rajesh and Dimple is personal... who am I to takes sides? I don't think by writing Dimple's come-back film I'm offending Rajesh Khanna. Neither am I letting him down in any way. For that matter, I don't owe any explanations to Rajesh, because, tomorrow if I write a script for Rajesh, I won't explain myself to Dimple. I believe you are in the process of creating a casting coup by signing the never before team of Shabana Azmi and Amitabh Bachchan? Shabana Azmi in my opinion is the finest actress in the country today. Amitabh Bachchan is no less. Casting them together will be a challenge for any script writer. Yes, I do plan to bring them together, as soon I'm ready with my script. I think they will be a tremendous combination in a dramatic film. Do you think Amitabh will work with you after Shakti? Do you feel you let him down in the film? No, we didn't let him down in Shakti. If people felt that there wasn't enough of Amitabh in the film then the loss was the film's, not Amitabh's. Today, his position is such that these things can hardly make any difference to him. Only time will tell whether he works with me in the future or not. Rumour has it that Dilip Kumar has been tampering with your script of Mashaal? No, that's not true. He has never tampered with my script. I consider him to be a great actor and I'm sure he has faith in me as a writer, otherwise he would be doing my job. Mashaal is turning out to be a very good film. Yash Chopra is at his best. But the surprise packet of the film will be this young actor Anil Kapoor. How is it that your wife Honey has taken to working as an assistant to Ramesh Talwar? Why should Honey's working surprise anybody? True, she doesn't have to work for money but I see no reason why she should let her creativity rust. In fact, I find it hard to believe that she is not working. Honey has always wanted to direct films and she is learning the technique of how to go about it. Ramesh Talwar is not only a competent director but a dear friend of ours. Mark my words. Honey will be a very great director one day. She has just shown me the first script that she has written. It's about a father-daughter relationship, and it's brilliant. I'm not saying that because she is my wife but she has done a great job of it. She has aptly given it a beautiful title: Lamhe. You have said in an interview that Gulzar knows nothing about poetry, that his writing is abstract and that he writes songs which don't fit into the meter... I've never said that Gulzar knows nothing about poetry. But I do say that he writes abstract poetry... that he ignores the traditional meter. But there is a difference between abstract poetry and absurd poetry. Maybe, I'm too conservative about the norms and traditions of poetry to accept anything that violates them. A poet is at liberty to experiment with ideas, but he should not tamper with the rules which differentiate poetry from prose. However, I have great respect for Gulzar saab's aesthetic sense in choosing the right words for his poems. People say that the poems appearing under your name are not yours, but from the collection left behind by your father Jan Nisar Akhtar. If my poetry is being mistaken for my father's, then it's the finest compliment that I have received. And finally, are you and Shabana Azmi going to get married? Please give me an honest answer to this very controversial question. I'm married to Honey. Shabana and me are very good friends only. --Pammi Gaut

Yash Chopra: Contents
Rachel Dwyer (with a Foreword by Lata Mangeshkar)

1975 Deewaar ('The wall; I'll die for mama')




Deewaar/The wall, produced by Gulshan Rai's Trimurti Films, opened 24 January 1975 as Manoj Kumar's Roti, kapra aur makan/Bread, clothes and housing was celebrating its golden jubilee (fifty week run). It is regarded as a classic of Hindi cinema.




The film begins with Ravi Verma (Shashi Kapoor) being given a medal for his work as a policeman. He says his mother, Sumitra Devi (Nirupa Roy) was really responsible for his success and her flashback begins.




Anand Verma, a trade unionist in a coal mine, capitulates to his bosses when they kidnap his family. The unionists taunt his family so he flees. They then tattoo his older son,Vijay, 'Mera baap chor hai/My father is a thief' Sumitra, Vijay and her younger son, Ravi, move to Bombay. She works on a building site to send Ravi to school, while Vijay polishes shoes. Sumitra prays regularly but Vijay will not join her.




Vijay (Amitabh Bachchan) becomes a dockworker where he leads a rebellion against paying protection money, after another worker is killed. After a choreographed fight with stylish dialogues, Vijay emerges as the a hero but is picked out to join a band of smugglers where he makes enough money to buy his family a large house. Ravi (Shashi Kapoor), encouraged by his girlfriend Veera (Neetu Singh) meanwhile joins the police after finding he has no connections necessary to enter other work. Vijay meets Anita (Parveen Babi) and they begin their affair at the end of which she is pregnant.




Ravi is put on the police case against his brother. He asks to be taken off but they make him stay on it. Vijay and Ravi confront one another but neither is prepared to yield. Their father's body is found one day and they carry out the last rites.




Sumitra is ill but recovers when the priest informs her that Vijay has prayed for her life. Anita is killed going to get a sari for their wedding. Vijay goes to meet his mother in the temple. Ravi has to kill him in a shootout, and Vijay dies in his mother's arms at the front of a temple.




Yash says he was aware of the script's potential as soon as he heard it:
Deewaar was a script which we heard, we didn't work on it. Salim-Javed brought the script to us. What you see in the script they were inspired from Mother India, definitely inspired from Mother India. As far as the script is concerned Deewaar's better than Sholay. Success of the magnitude you will never see. It was such top script. And, success of Sholay was unbelievable, but as script even Deewaar was better. Dialogue-wise. Then there was not any dacoit or anything like that. It was an emotional picture and it was not a action picture. There was only one fight. The godown fight is famous, the godown fight.




Even though there was no music, the film did very great business. There was a controversy in the music because there was no scope for music in the script. There were only two songs.

Salim and Javed gave me a bound script, which was their best. Gulshan Rai, the producer wanted Rajesh Khanna as the hero but I had Zanjeer in mind, so wanted Amitabh and decided on Shashi. It was nearly all shot in Bombay or Khandala, mostly on night shoots as Amitabh was shooting Sholay during the day




Amitabh recalls:
I heard the story of Deewaar and liked its contemporary approach. Yashji loves beauty, nature and romance. Even when serious and dramatic he needs a bouquet of flowers. Deewaar must have been painful. He took the opportunity for romance. It has the best script and screenplay, best Salim-Javed film, with no space for music or songs. We were very happy, although Gulshan Rai was very sceptical because of the lack of music. The qawwali was an afterthought added at insistence of Gulshan Rai. Yashji was not keen to include it, but he went with the tide.




The dramatic moments were inspiring. The temple had two locations inside the studio, one for the scene where he begs mother's life and another duplicate in Chandivali studio for the sequence when they're young. The temple sequence was very dramatic, we didn't want to dub but to do it live. The two temple sequences were not dubbed. In the scene when he's asking for his mother's life, you can hear the camera move on the wooden trolley. The sound of the clock going off was an accident. We started that sequence at nine in the morning and shot until nine at night. He is very liberal in giving actors their lines. It's done in half an hour then left up to the actors.




Salim-Javed wrote the script but the execution is Yashji and the actor. There is little left to improvise. Salim-Javed didn't write the death scene. The gist was that his life flashes by, he thinks of tender moments, so I thought about what he would be thinking of, that he loved his mother but he hasn't received sufficient love.




Javed says about the temple scene when Vijay is angry with Shiva:
When this scene was shot, we had a discussion with Amitabh Bachchan. We felt he had too harsh a tone in this scene- a bit too defiant. But he was convinced and said, 'If I start the dialogue on a low note then somewhere in between I'll have to raise my tone. So instead I'm going to start the delivery of dialogue form a very strong stance and work my way down.' I think it did work. He was right.




Deewaar ran for over a hundred weeks and was soon recognised as a classic Hindi film. Perhaps this was because it broke so many rules. It has hardly any songs, the only two being the qawwali number and the title song, the hero is an anti-hero, there is little scope for romance as the heroine has a very small role, and is no innocent virgin, the lost father dies before there is a family reunion, and the hero dies at the hand of his brother.




Although a critic regarded the story as a problem in that it was not new, but this actually turned out to be one of its strengths. The story drew in large measure on Mother India, even in its structure, as a flashback by the sacrificing mother as the family's sacrifice is honoured by the state. The mother, abandoned by her husband, struggles to bring up her two sons. Her good son conforms to the Law, and her bad son takes the law into his own hands, invoking a natural law. The mother loves the bad son more but is compelled to choose the good son. The characters have the same mythic resonance but they are given contemporary touches, so Vijay is 'cool', handsome, and gives stylised speeches; Ravi is a young idealistic police officer, who realises the corruption of the system yet will not take to crime, embodying the Law directly. Nirupa Roy, though not such a great star as Nargis, plays the idealised mother, drawing on her earlier goddess roles, acting as the focus for the film's emotion. She has to chose between the law of the state and that of kinship, so although she loves Vijay, she has to follow the law. Vijay rejects religion, but is superstitious about his armband with the number 786, regarded as lucky by many Muslims, which saves him from bullets. He finally goes to pray when his mother is ill and his death takes place in the temple where he has long refused to worship.




The connection with Mother India draws on elements of this mythical or epic film, setting it in a modern, urban context. It also draws on other films, notably On the waterfront, for the dockyard confrontations and on the idiom of American urban cool that was becoming fashionable at this time. This character of Vijay clearly has the makings of a folk hero, as he supports traditional family values although he criticises the 'system' or the state, fighting for righteous causes from outside its sphere of operation. There is no doubt that he is on the side of Right, as he shows in his eloquent speeches, but these values conflict with those of the state and to resolve these he has to die, adding martyrdom to his cause.



In Mother India the bad son, Birju, dies at the hand of his mother, who was the principal actor in this film, while here Vijay is the central figure. In Deewaar the conflict between the brothers is foregrounded more than in Mother India and is neatly stylised in the famous dialogue between the brothers. After Sumitra has refused to take anything more from Vijay, she and Ravi have moved out. Vijay and Ravi meet under the bridge over the pavement where they lived when their mother used to work on a building site. The children's song Sare jahaan se accha Hindustan hamara/Our India is the best in the world plays while the brothers argue, Vijay asks Ravi to move to another case as this is dangerous, saying that now there is a wall (deewaar) between them. Ravi says he cannot give up this case because of his principles and

ideals:
V Ufh! Tumhaare usool, tumhaaro aadarsh! Kis kaam ke hain tumhaare usool? Tumhaare saare usoolon ko goonth kar ek waqt ki roti banaayi jaa sakti hai, Ravi. Jin aadarshan ke liye tum ani zindagi per khelne ke liye taiyaar ho, kya diya hai tumhein un aadarshon ne? Ek chaar paanch sau rupaye ki police ki naukir. Ek kiraaye ka quarter. Ek duty ki jeep. Do jode khaaki vardi. Dekho! Dekho! Ye wo hi main hun, aur ye wo hi tum ho. Hum donon ek hi saath is footpath se uthe the. Lekhin aaj tum kahan rah gaye aur main kahan aa gayaa. Aaj mere paas building hain, property hai, bank balance hai, bungla hai, gaadi hai. Kya hai tumhaare paas?




Huh! Your principles and your ideals! What use are your principles? All your principles gathered together can't give you a square meal. These ideals for which you're prepared to risk your life - what have these ideals given you? A job earning four or five hundred rupees. A quarter to rent. A jeep when you're on duty. A pair of khaki uniforms. Look! Look! This is what I am and this is what you are. We both grew up together on this pavement. But look where you have got to and where I am. Now I have buildings, property, money in the bank, a house, a car. What do you have?
Ravi Meri paas maa hai.
I have Mum.




Other famous dialogues occur when Ravi realises the law is wrong, and visits the poor family whose boy was driven to steal bread to provide food for his parents and Ravi had to shoot him. Vijay's death scene, his speeches about dignity and many other such memorable dialogues are known off by heart by many people even today.




The film has one of the best depictions of Bombay, using real locations, ranging from the docks to five-star hotels. At this time in Bombay, smuggling was a real threat and one of its most notorious practictioners, Haji Mastan Mirza, was imprisoned during Emergency. This seamy side of Bombay is shown here in a 'realistic' manner which has been emulated in a few outstanding films, notably 1998's Satya (dir. Ram Gopal Verma).
Apart from music, another key ingredient of the Yash Chopra film is missing, namely romance. Ravi's girlfriend Veera (Neetu) has little to do apart from look sweet and be his boss's daughter; Vijay's girlfriend (Parveen), is a glamorous call girl. Although we see her in bed with Vijay, smoking a post-coital cigarette, we learn that she has also fallen foul of the system and nurses secret dreams of a traditional wedding and a conventional life.

Great interview Sahana.... What is interesting to know is Javed Akhtar's attitude towards Gulzar... Gulzar's poetry not getting appreciated by another renowned poet, and that too in public is surprising!

Also to be noted - he mentions about Honey Irani's script Lamhe in this interview which seems quite old... Must say that the lady wrote something way ahead of her times!

Sahana ji, It is a great article..Thanks for sharing..
As much as I understand Javed and Shabana are husband and wife..Probably this is an old article when they were not married..

Gulzar poetry may be abstract but is beautiful..

Originally posted by: jayc1234

Great interview Sahana.... What is interesting to know is Javed Akhtar's attitude towards Gulzar... Gulzar's poetry not getting appreciated by another renowned poet, and that too in public is surprising!

Also to be noted - he mentions about Honey Irani's script Lamhe in this interview which seems quite old... Must say that the lady wrote something way ahead of her times!

Hi Jaya. Actually, Javed is quite frank unlike reclusive Gulzar. To some extent, I have the the same beliefs as Javed - don't like abstract poetry. I mean I do like many of Gulza's poems but I can perfectly understand where Javed is coming from - I identify with him more.

Yes, the biggest surprise for me is that Honey (whom I always considered a mediocre scriptwriter) wrote Lamhe which has some good scenes.

Originally posted by: Sur_Sangam

Sahana ji, It is a great article..Thanks for sharing..
As much as I understand Javed and Shabana are husband and wife..Probably this is an old article when they were not married..

Gulzar poetry may be abstract but is beautiful..

As I mentioned before the article, this is an old but interesting interview.
I find Gulzar's poetry beautiful but not always. I think Javed's forte lies in dialogues. Before Salim-Javed hit the scene, dialogues used to be so predictable. But S-J gave the public something it had never experienced before! People started learning the dialogues! Frankly, Amitabh would have been nothing without those dialogues penned by Salim-Javed.

When it comes to lyrics too, I find Javed no lesser than Gulzar in songs like "Tanhaayee" and "Hum logon ko samajh sako to samjho".
  Edited by punjini - 17 years ago

Scriptwriter Javed Akhtar says Hindi cinema has lost its soul

NEW DELHI (AP) - India's best known scriptwriter Javed Akhtar says Hindi cinema has "lost its soul" by producing films that do not reflect Indian realities but have romance and affluence as their central themes, a news report said Wednesday.

"Earlier producers asked us to write scripts that would run in small towns. Hence, the protagonist was from the working class and his concerns were reflected," Akhtar told Press Trust of India.

Filmmakers today wanted their movies to be a hit in the cities and attract audiences abroad, he said.

"The hero is well-off and suave. But the aspirations of 76 per cent of the people of India recede to the background," Akhtar was quoted as saying.

"Cinema today may have better locales, better techniques, swankier homes and cars, but somewhere it has lost its soul," Akhtar told PTI.

Akhtar wrote the scripts for numerous hit films, including blockbusters "Sholay" or "Embers," Zanjeer" or "Chains," and "Deewar" or "The Wall." He is also a prolific poet and lyric writer for hundreds of songs in Hindi films.

Akhtar, who is the seventh generation poet in his family, says he almost did not become a scriptwriter.

He began his career as an assistant director.

"In those days dialogues used to arrive on the sets minutes before the scene was to be shot. I would volunteer to tweak dialogues that directors were unhappy with, in a bid to retain my job."

Akhtar is working on three film scripts at present, including "Kabhi Alvida Na Kehna (Never Say Goodbye)," and his son Farhan Akhtar's film "Don."

Anu Gopalakrishnan provides some excerpts from her chat with Javed Akhtar that ranged from secular issues to Bollywood and his celebrity family members.



Q: From a script writer to poetry to a lyricist, your multi dimensional personality has been an inspiration to all literature lovers, tell us about this journey and your visit to Michigan?

JA: Gwalior is my birthplace though I've never lived there. I grew up in Lucknow and Aligarh and spent four years in Bhopal when I was in college. After that I came to Mumbai. And as you know rest is history. The purpose behind my visit to Michigan is to share my ideas and thoughts with my friends who are all part of the Aligarh Muslim University. I was invited by them and I am so happy to meet with them.

Q: With a strong sense for literature, most people end up being novelists and poets how did Bollywood happen?

JA: That was a long journey. I came to Bombay in 1964 and after a period of trials and tribulations. I got a break in 1969. It was a struggle where life seemed like a tunnel.



Q: Your strong interest in politics and literature is reflected in your writings and you have used this influence to fight fundamentalism. Any comments on this?

JA: Religion and politics should not be mixed. Fundamentalists, in other words extremist groups think themselves to be the sole voices of the community. I realized with a few others that it was very essential for secular Muslims to get organized and have a forum that would counter those attacks. MSD was formed two years back on Gandhi Jayanthi day.


Q: How was the response to your group - Muslims for Secular Democracy (MSD) forum? Your liberal political ideas and your healthy approach to women's causes may land you in trouble?

JA (laughs!): The response from the mainstream community has been exceptional. We have been talking to the common man and enlightening and informing them about the damages caused to the nation and as a community. I would like to emphasize on education. When truth is spoken, there will always be trouble in some form or the other. I am in a state where I have the privilege to stand in front of a global community and address such issues. People lack the courage to voice their feelings fearing the fundamentalists. All I am talking about is reason, tolerance, moderation, support for women's causes.

Q: You think an educated mind would be able to decide wisely on which forum to choose?

JA: It all depends on real perception. We have two forces pitted against each other. One is the democratic concept that says all people irrespective of caste. Religion, creed, color should not be discriminated/ All should have the same dignity and self-respect. Then there is the other which categorizes people according to religion. Freedom is not granted because a particular religion is minority. As an educated individual, I think one should uphold secularism with real priorities.


Q: Akhtar saab, so much has been written about your open outlook towards religion and politics, what inspires you to write such quality poetry, lyrics or scripts?

JA: All of us go through a collage of emotions. There are so many aspects in a person. We have varied stages of life which inspires us in one way or the other. Everything about life inspires me. Its not about the genre of work, but the quality you perceive. For me, the excitement about life, about work, that passion to experience makes me churn out prose and poetry.


Q: Writing to many is a hobby, to you - its your profession. What do you love doing other than writing?

JA: Reading, traveling and meeting people. Most of my experiences and interest towards life comes through meeting people from various backgrounds. This keeps me going.


Q: Your family members are all celebrities in their own right? How do you manage to spend time with each other?

JA: Yes! Shabana, Farhan and Zoya are all busy people. We respect each other so much that we give enough space and freedom to each other. This allows us to cultivate our creative skills. Though they have that celebrity status stamped on them, they are all easy going, extremely normal household names where success rests very lightly on their shoulders. I am thankful to god for having given me such extremely talented and good individuals as my family.


Q: After Tarkash- there has never been any poetic releases? Can we expect something in the future?

JA: Most definitely. My poetry collection will be released soon- probably less than a year. I started writing urdu poetry in 1980. Tarkash was released in 1995 as my first Urdu collection. The poetry collection was translated in English ("Quiver"), Kannada, Gujarati and Bengali as well.


His first collection of nazms and ghazals, Tarkash, had a very successful release in 1995 and is in its seventh edition in Hindi and fourth edition in Urdu. It has received rave reviews both as a book and as India's first audio book, having sold more than a hundred thousand copies. On the other hand, his Ghazal albums like Sangam, for example, in collaboration with the internationally acclaimed singer-composer, late Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, also had record sales.

Akhtar is also known for his celebrated partnership with Salim Khan, with whom he wrote some of the biggest hits in Indian cinema during the 70s and 80s, which included story, screenplay and dialogue for films like Zanjeer, Deewar, Sholay, Haathi Mere Saathi, Seeta Aur Geeta, Don and Trishul.


Q: How do you foresee the future of Indian film music. With English words being dominant in most Hindi lyrics today- there is remix, rap, techno all over us?

JA: But the worst is behind us! Indian film and Indian film music has come a long way. People are moving towards better cinema. I am optimistic. People have a choice to accept or reject the movie based on their taste. With regard to language. It changes in time. If you see, most Hindi movies have Urdu dialogues. The same way with words. The English word "bore" is no longer an English word. Its mixed within sentences and the same applies with 'mood'. Mera 'mood' nahi hain-again, mood is seen more in a Hindi angle. There are always new words and new language that gains precedence. That does not mean that we are heading towards destruction.

Son of the well-known Urdu poet and film lyricist, Jan Nissar Akhtar and Safia Akhtar, teacher and writer, Javed Akhtar belongs to a lineage that can be traced back to seven generations of writers. The highly respected Urdu poet, Majaz, was his mother's brother and the work of Muzter Khairabadi, his grandfather, is looked upon as a milestone in Urdu poetry.

Both Jan Nissar Akhtar & Safia Akhtar were professors at Hamidia College, Bhopal. Javed Akhtar did his schooling at the Cambridge School in Bhopal, Calvin Talukadar College in Lucknow, Mintoo Circle at Aligarh, and graduated from Saifiya College, Bhopal in 1964.

Javed Akhtar was in Michigan on Sunday to participate in the International Mushaira with his friends from Aligarh Muslim University.

Thanks Sahan for sharing

looks like very old interview.. he was not even married to Shabana then

Originally posted by: uknaik99

Thanks Sahan for sharing

looks like very old interview.. he was not even married to Shabana then

Yes, it's more interesting because you get to know his view before he was married to Shabana.