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return_to_hades

@return_to_hades

IF-Stunnerz

+ 6

Posted: 5 years ago

Originally posted by: astha36

Watching Zoya talk, she does come across as someone who would take reason above faith. Not surprised. Have these people you've mentioned publicly declared their atheism or is it a guess? I mean because they aren't very religious.

I read somewhere else about Jinnah too, what is a credible source though for this fact? I'd like to know one to refer to it in future debates.

I don't have documented proof. But Javed Akhtar has talked about atheism several times in TV shows he's been on. I remember film magazine interviews of Kamal Hassan, Rahul Bose and Amol Palekar stating they are atheists. Ram Gopal Verma has stated it in his twitter account and has gone on many anti-religion rants. I'm sure you will find proof if you dig.

I posted some stuff about Jinnah.

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Mintmargarita

@Mintmargarita

Senior Member

Posted: 5 years ago

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

Here is an old TOI article - https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/life-style/spotlight/Atheist-fundamentalists/articleshow/6014430.cms

If you read the writings and speeches by Jinnah in his early days he writes a lot about equality of humans and a common code of law. He worked tirelessly to distance himself from mullahs and Muslim religious leaders. Many historians find a lot of conflict between his personal views and the formation of Pakistan. I believe there is a book by a Pakistani author too 'something something what the nation doesnt know' (don't remember exact title) that speaks to his atheism.

Many found conflicts because they want to... I have read many books on him by English and unbiased authors. He is not how he is portrayed in Pakistan and India which is white and black respectively. Being liberal and secular doesn't mean that you don't believe in the existence of God. I am liberal too but i am not atheist by any means.

Also TOI will be my last source on this planet if I have to research on Jinnah.

Edited by RecklessDemon - 5 years ago

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Mintmargarita

@Mintmargarita

Senior Member

Posted: 5 years ago

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

Here is an old TOI article - https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/life-style/spotlight/Atheist-fundamentalists/articleshow/6014430.cms

If you read the writings and speeches by Jinnah in his early days he writes a lot about equality of humans and a common code of law. He worked tirelessly to distance himself from mullahs and Muslim religious leaders. Many historians find a lot of conflict between his personal views and the formation of Pakistan.I believe there is a book by a Pakistani author too 'something something what the nation doesnt know' (don't remember exact title) that speaks to his atheism.

@blue : that doesnt make him an atheist 😕 he talked about rule of law, human rights all through his life. Mullahs aremostly wrong because they present to you a rigid picture of Islam which is not the true picture. He was right in doing so. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in the existence of God, not someone who distances themselves from Mullah..

@green: you will find conflicting views because he truly believed in United India at first but seeing the stubbornness of some Indian politicians, he realized that it's not going to work. He asked for separate homeland for muslims because they were not given the quota he asked for in jobs for them and there were several underlying factors. It was a bitter truth which he had to accept later. And let me clarify he didn't ask for separate homeland for becoming a Prime Minister 😆 thats one of those ridiculous arguments you listen from Indian counterparts. He didn't even become a Prime Minister in Pakistan.

Again if someone is claiming he was an atheist who didn't believe in existence of God then that is false.. He always made speeches starting and acknowledging the oneness of God that makes him a Muslim... Anyway if you want I can refer some books to you from unbiased authors..

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return_to_hades

@return_to_hades

IF-Stunnerz

+ 6

Posted: 5 years ago

Originally posted by: RecklessDemon
Many found conflicts because they want to... I have read many books on him by English and unbiased authors. He is not how he is portrayed in Pakistan and India which is white and black respectively. Being liberal and secular doesn't mean that you don't believe in the existence of God. I am liberal too but i am not atheist by any means.

Also TOI will be my last source on this planet if I have to research on Jinnah.

Jinnah is the only one who can confirm or deny his beliefs, and alas he is no more to do so. All we can do is speculate and interpret. And there is a whole spectrum of interpretations on who he was.

IMO this TOI opinion piece I cited is pretty unbiased. It looks at Jinnah and Savarkar through a critical lens. But it is an opinion piece, not a factual article so your skepticism is warranted.

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Illyrion

@Illyrion

IF-Dazzler

+ 2

Posted: 5 years ago

Originally posted by: astha36

The other woman who is an Atheist is also very young, looks younger than Oprah. So, being young has nothing to do with having this or that belief. People can be evolved at any age. I have heard a lot about Oprah, obviously, so I just wanted to know if this is her normal behaviour on her chat show. Maybe it isn't so now. So, that's okay. In this video though, Oprah comes across as someone not very intelligent.

I was really impressed with the atheist woman whose name is Annie Laurie Gaylor. She was lucid, articulate and so composed. She really defended her stance in a dignified way against everyone in the show.

I think the point is that there is no evidence towards the existence of god. So, atheists just don't want to believe in something for the sake of it. If there's reasonable evidence, they'll believe it. It's like how do you prove tooth fairies aren't real.

Just curious...what did you think of her treatment of Diana Nyed at the very end of the video. Did you think it was different?

Evidence for God exists or does not contingent on your definition of God. I see evidence of what I consider God all around me and more so the more I learn about science and statistics but then, I am not looking for evidence of an omnipotent man in the sky controlling everything. Of him, I agree I see no evidence.

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Mintmargarita

@Mintmargarita

Senior Member

Posted: 5 years ago

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

Jinnah is the only one who can confirm or deny his beliefs, and alas he is no more to do so. All we can do is speculate and interpret. And there is a whole spectrum of interpretations on who he was.

IMO this TOI opinion piece I cited is pretty unbiased. It looks at Jinnah and Savarkar through a critical lens. But it is an opinion piece, not a factual article so your skepticism is warranted.

True, he is the only source of denying and accepting his views. Could you bring one statement from him where he denied the existence of God? I could bring several where he believed in existence of God specially when he was about to die reflecting his state of mind at that time.. In short he was NOT an atheist.

I am speaking up because I am truly inspired by his life and has studied him a lot and appalled by false allegation on him by various sources (Indian or Pakistani).

P.S: Jinnah is not related to BW and this is not the right place to discuss him. However being a follower of him I took it upon on me to clarify the false judgements and allegations. This post is not against you. Of course you are allowed to form an opinion but don't base it from other sources when his own speeches are very much place in records for everyone to listen and to read.

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Mausi Ji

@DobbyDeol

IF-Stunnerz

+ 7

Posted: 5 years ago

Bollywood only gets religious when their movies are about to release...

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return_to_hades

@return_to_hades

IF-Stunnerz

+ 6

Posted: 5 years ago

Originally posted by: Nova19
The interesting thing about atheists (as opposed to agnostics) criticizing religious faith is that atheism too requires some faith. After all how can you prove there is no god?

I don't think atheism is a matter of faith.

Can the universe be explained by a higher power? Probably.

Is it necessary to have a higher power explanation for the universe? Absolutely not.

The omniscient deity concept is riddled with holes and can be dismissed. If God knows everything then God knows the future. If God knows the future, the future is determined. If the future is determined free will does not exist. So you have to choose one over the other free will vs omniscient deity. That flies in the face of all major faiths - they preach free will as well as omniscience. Or they inconsistently switch between determinism and free will as they please.

Omnipotence can be refuted similarly. If God is all powerful, God has the power to see the future. If God knows the future, the future is determined. And so on.

Now a being with higher (but limited) powers with arbitrary influences on our world is feasible. But probability does not a fact make.

Logic requires that a claim or hypothesis must be proven to become a fact. The burden of proof lies on the one who makes the claim. So atheists are well within their logical right to reject the concept of God. After all humans came up with a theory that cannot be proven or disproven. Existence does not need a higher power to be explained.

Agnostics are on a slightly shakier ground because they are giving credence to a claim that is unnecessary to explain existence. But they are not making the mistake of accepting it as a fact.

There is no logical basis for theism. It is as good as believing in unicorns. You cannot prove the existence of unicorns because there is no fossil evidence for them. But you cannot reject it entirely because new species are discovered every day and maybe we just have not found unicorns yet. But most of us know that unicorns are a result of human imagination and dont believe it or feel agnostic about it. Something about God though makes human abandon all logic.

And now a lot of theists are going to be upset at me for calling them illogical. But hey, I'm still actively waiting for my Hogwarts letter. We all have our flaws and are illogical in our own way.

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astha36

@astha36

IF-Rockerz

+ 3

Posted: 5 years ago

Originally posted by: Nova19

Just curious...what did you think of her treatment of Diana Nyed at the very end of the video. Did you think it was different?

Evidence for God exists or does not contingent on your definition of God. I see evidence of what I consider God all around me and more so the more I learn about science and statistics but then, I am not looking for evidence of an omnipotent man in the sky controlling everything. Of him, I agree I see no evidence.

I thought her behaviour was fine at the end with Diana. But then it was just a few minutes. It does seem like it is sort of incredible for her that somebody could be an atheist.

I suppose it is the supernatural which the atheists do not believe in and don't find reasonable evidence for. But if someone thinks there is God in humanity or self, then that would be different.

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beingsirius

@beingsirius

Goldie

Posted: 5 years ago

I was an atheist for a time when life was shitty and nothing was going right. I never prayed or went to any temple or any such thing. Then fending for myself all alone in a foreign country with no family or friends or well-wishers brought me closer to the Higher Power somehow. So I'm not anymore at all.

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