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Dharamkshetra discussion thread 2 (Page 27)

Brahmaputra IF-Sizzlerz
Brahmaputra
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Posted: 23 May 2015 at 7:29am | IP Logged
I don't like Karna Kunti poem by Tagore as it shows Kunti in a bad light. (no offense to Kunti haters, for god sake). Also, I never felt sympathy for whatever happened to Karna, honestly. When it is very clear that under which circumstances she had to abandon Karna continuously, I don't think she should be criticised for that. All those who are ready with tamaatars & andaas, remember, they are very costly these days and read MB please. I am in no mood to write an essay on Kunti.

amritat IF-Dazzler
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Posted: 23 May 2015 at 7:46am | IP Logged
Originally posted by CaptainSpark


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Yes man.. I really wish he did! Same old Karna LOL

And @bold - I always say moment we say karna, atleast in front of Bengalis, comes Tagore for his ONE poemLOLPeople keep on proving my point, Tagore should atleast be given 50% credit for makin Karna the KARNA THE GREAT!

And Madhushan Dutta should be given almost more than half the credit for Bengalis having this urge to workship villians, and think.. they are not actually wrong.



OKay now I should stop or else people will accuse me for bashing Tagore and Dutta ROFL


Brishti...like it or not but Karna is the most popular character from Mahabharat after Lord Krishna...not just in Bengal but in the country...And that is quite justified...
Any character that is tragic or has hints of tragedy will always garner more attention from the masses...
I dont have anything against this...
The only two problems I have with Karna's excessive popularity is most people worship Karna for the wrong facts that have been propagated n promoted by Shivaji Sawant's novel, Kashi Dashi Mahabharat n other works on Mahabharat...
Few like Jamy, Watcher n Sabhayata love Karna because of the RIGHT reasons...I just wish this false image is corrected n people accept his flaws as well, instead of considering him as a white person...Karna, Arjun, Draupadi, Kunti...none of them were white...
Second problem, I have is, while glorifying Karna...Kunti is dragged...with Kunti, Arjun is dragged...with Arjun, Draupadi is dragged...n Bhishma, Drone, Kripacharya, Bheema...even Lord Krishna is dragged n put down, on account of Karna...
This is wat I detest...
It is true that all these characters had hurt Karna with their words or actions at sometime or the other...but Karna was no saint either...He had retaliated quite often with the same harshness...Every character has some good n bad side side...
Blindness in favouritism is wat makes me Karna-phobic, if not a hater...

As for Tagore...well he had written 'Gandharir Abedon', 'Chitrangada' n another poem that metaphorically describes Draupadi's Vastraharan...So, it's difficult to say, whose fan he was...

As for Michael Madhusudan Dutta...I am a BIG fan of his...
He showed the world a different way of looking at the age-old epics...but he did not do to Ram, wat modern authors on Duryodhan do to Lord Krishna or the Pandavas...
This man was a genius...
From wat I have heard, Michael Madhusudan was extremely Anglicised...He had written a novel named 'Captive Lady' in English but his English-loving self was extremely heart-broken when that novel was disregarded...
So, he decided to write in his mother-tongue n came up with a masterpiece like 'Meghnad Bodh Kabyo'...


The reason y he wrote from the perspective of the villain is something like...India, under British rule was going through revolutionary stage...Indians were fighting back for their land n honour...
Thus the poet came up with the poem, with the idea, that if, Indians who are fighting for defending their motherland fromforeigners are being hailed as heroes n the British as the villains...then y is Meghnad not considered a hero...
He, too was fighting to defend his country from a 'foreigner' Ram...

This is how...the poem came into being...or so I was told by my Bengali teacher...

Sorry for the gyaan... LOL

Neither Tagore nor Madhusudan Dutta may have imagined how pathetic the 21st Century people will be... LOL
And they never insulted the Ps or Ram in their work, like modern fans do... LOL
amritat IF-Dazzler
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Posted: 23 May 2015 at 8:10am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Brahmaputra

I don't like Karna Kunti poem by Tagore as it shows Kunti in a bad light. (no offense to Kunti haters, for god sake). Also, I never felt sympathy for whatever happened to Karna, honestly. When it is very clear that under which circumstances she had to abandon Karna continuously, I don't think she should be criticised for that. All those who are ready with tamaatars & andaas, remember, they are very costly these days and read MB please. I am in no mood to write an essay on Kunti.


Jamy...I dont think Tagore's poem demeans Kunti..In fact, I was going through some articles which had discussed how Tagore had taked creative liberty fotr showing her as a very maternal woman...whereas in the epic, she clearly had motives before going to Karna...

And I agree...I just detest this Kunti bashing, especially if these come from women...
Granted that the society was different then...n abandoning a child is a crime...but no mother gives up her child in pleasure...She was too young n the social pressures were there...
It's easy to point fingers at her...but being in her shoes is very difficult...
The place where Kunti screwed up the thing was when she went to Karna at such an impecceble time...

She had sent spies to see Karna growing up with Adhiratha, even felt happy when Karna was crowned as the King, n told the Pandavas the truth after Karna's death when it was not required...She had no need to disclose n put her image ay stake but she still did...although she put her sons in guilt, which would tear them till their death...

The only 2 things for which I have grudge against her was sharing of Draupadi( which I feel was intentional) n going to Karna before war...Apart from this, I actually sympathize with Kunti...

As fot Draupadi...apart from being brutally honest n too forthright...I dont see Draupadi ever planning or plotting against any innocent soul or killing innocent people like the men of the epic...
So...no need for any justification for her... LOL

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Brahmaputra

CaptainSpark IF-Rockerz
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Posted: 24 May 2015 at 8:55am | IP Logged
Okay. Will answer every line one by one... I am putting my response in Georgia font...
 
 
Originally posted by Brahmaputra

Brishti, you did not sound harsh. It is clearly written that Drona out of his partiality for Arjuna, denied Brahmastra for Karna. That was neither Karna's mistake nor because of he was incapable of learning it. If this event is true (I dont believe it happened as you know) Drona knew Karna was capable but he denied knowledge for Karna because he loved Arjuna more. Drona did what no guru should have done. If you believe Karna was Drona's student, this very partiality was the reason Karna did not like Arjuna though Arjuna was innocent in it. Drona did let a small child's jealousy grow into hatredness when he as a guru was supposed to correct Karna there. But as I dont think Karna was nowhere Drona's student, what Drona did to him is not a matter to me.
 
Where is that clearly written? There are high chances of you being correct because Drona was partial to Arjuna...Eklavya's incident is a clear proof of that... But can u post the citations which prove that... for my help. Also how do you know Drona knew he was capable? What proves that? And I believe that its not coz of Drona Karna didn't like Arjuna but simple for the fact that he DID THINGS which made Drona love him... Its not like his partiality towards Ashwathama.. Ashwi is incapable of that love.. he got that as Drona was partial to his son.. Arjuna's case was not the same. He was an excellent student. And Karna did not make any effort to improve himself better than HIMSELF in Drona's eyes, but only concentrated on hating Arjuna...
 
Originally posted by Brahmaputra

Karna did not jump in Rangabhoomi when Drona announced Arjuna as the best archer. In fact, Drona did not announce any such thing at all. Trust me, Karna entered only after everyone stopped appreciating what Arjuna did. ("And, O Bharata, when the exhibition had well-nigh ended, the excitement of the spectators had cooled, and the sounds of instruments had died out there was heard proceeding from the gate, the slapping of arms, betokening might and strength, and even like unto the roar of the thunder - KMG, Adi parva 137). In fact, he entered by clapping for what Arjuna did a few minutes ago. He was not clapping for himself, surely.LOL If you read Rangabhoomi event, it is clear that Karna was a stranger to all those who were present there. (they all exclaim who is he who is he) Had Karna been a student with Ps & Ks, that would not have been the case. That is one reason why I say he was not a student of Drona. No one recognised him. And yes; he did not say he was better than Arjuna or Arjuna was less than him. What he said was "I shall show whatever you did, faster than you & you will be amazed by it". He was just being enthusiastic to show his skills. Else why did he tell Arjuna that "you will be amazed by it?". That was more a friendly dialogue, I think. He was very cool when he said it, he is not said to be in anger and all then.
 
 
Then maybe your interpretation of a character's feelings and mine are different.. But I DEFINITELY don't think they are in any way friendly! Shocked And now coming to the clapping... as for that is concerned haven't you seen Hindi films.. that is like symbolism of sarcasm! I cant remember a scene where one character enters clapping for another.. but this is very common. Its just mocking of the person you are clapping for and that is exactly what Karna does... This is plain mockery!
Now, okay, even if Karna came in after Arjuna finished his turn.. Just as you posted the citation.. Come on Jamy.. this is making me laugh..! How can u say such a stupid thing? You try to be logical and explain.. atleast I feel that... I couldn't believe you are saying this.. Karna never meant to say Arjuna was any less or he was better? See, there are three comparative degrees. Good, better and best. So if Arjuna is fast, and Karna said I will show the same thing FASTER! He is plain comparing. You will have to accept this.. its a plain fact... People love to compare. That is the reason why GAMES, any ANY game, war, anything between TWO parties/individuals were born. This theory is very very much accepted AFAIK. The birth of game was because people love to compare. So two people doing the same thing, is not AT ALL without comparison unless they are two madmen trying to play some game in the roads. So obviously Karna was trying to mock Arjuna and prove himself better than him. Even if the Gurukul part never existed.. its pretty clear Karna wasn't in any way "friendly."

Originally posted by Brahmaputra

Karna never said he wanted to prove superior to Arjuna. I dont remember any such dialogue.
 
If everything would have to be proven by citations and dialogues, then there would be no value of literature. The fact that Karna wanted to be superior to Arjuna is pretty clear from the 18 parva epic. Now don't tell me you want citations as this fact CANNOT be proven with a dialogue. It is typical understanding and analysis of a character. Not necessary your analysis will be same from the same epic which you and I take as the source...
 
Originally posted by Brahmaputra

And yes he said many times that he wished to be accepted for what he was. I dont think that is needed to be taken as against Arjuna. Neither Arjuna ever said anything like that about Karna. What Karna always said he was never given a chance to prove his skill.
 
 
A good warrior should stop moaning about what he got and what not and take life as it comes. A good warrior I said. This is not possible in today's world. I am talking in context of those days. Today there is politics, and many other things which play a part in how much chances an individual gets.. so don't get me wrong. History is not that big a cheater to forget anyone capable. Drona tried to wipe out Eklavya, and he plainly accepted that. But History did not forget him. With dronas's name comes Eklavya's.
 
Originally posted by Brahmaputra

And the only person capable of fighing him was Arjuna.
 
Being over-confident is not a good trait... acc to me.
 
Originally posted by Brahmaputra

Karna was never afraid of beind defeated, he said it many times. So queation of defeating or killing do not arise.
 
I didn't get you... He never was afraid of being defeated fair enough. But his aim if to defeat others (read: Arjuna) so the question of defeating and killing arises.
 
Originally posted by Brahmaputra

But what important to him was to show what he knew or what he was capable of. He tells that to Krishna also that he never cared outcomes of what he did, he cared only what he did & accepted whatever the result is.
(that is what Krishna also told Arjuna - dont think about the result, do what you suppose to do; isn't it?) How can we take that as he wanted to kill or defeat Arjuna? He wanted to show his skill whether he got defeated or not. Showing his skill was more important to Karna, not Arjuna. I dont think he needed to defeat or kill to show his skill. I guess it is better to read Karna Krishna conversation than reading what I write.
 
Will surely check out. But that does not give me any reason to be a Karna admirer as one KArna Krishna conversation does not change his whole character. It does not make sense saying I did that I never wanted this... when you are NOT a good human being. End of the day that is what matters TO ME... History definitely does not care about who is good. That is why it remembers all the characters.. be it Karna or Arjuna..Bheem or Duryodhana.. Dusshashana or Sahdev...
 
 


Edited by CaptainSpark - 24 May 2015 at 9:00am

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Brahmaputra

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Posted: 24 May 2015 at 9:03am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Brahmaputra

Originally posted by Urmila11

In rangabhumi, Karna threatened Arjun. See this citation:

Karna
replied, 'This arena is meant for all, not for thee alone, O Phalguna! They are
kings who are superior in energy; and verily the Kshatriya regardeth might and
might alone. What need of altercation which is the exercise of the weak? O
Bharata, speak then in arrows until with arrows I strike off thy head today
before the preceptor himself!'

When you quote make it sure that you dont eat away some part of it.

"Vaisampayana continued, 'Arjuna, after this, deeming himself disgraced, said unto Karna stationed amidst the brothers like unto a cliff, 'That path which the unwelcome intruder and the uninvited talker cometh to, shall be thine, O Karna, for thou shall be slain by me.' Karna replied, 'This arena is meant for all, not for thee alone, O Phalguna! They are kings who are superior in energy; and verily the Kshatriya regardeth might and might alone.What need of altercation which is the exercise of the weak? O Bharata, speak then in arrows until with arrows I strike off thy head today before the preceptor himself!'
If somebody is going to tell me : I will kill you or even something like I will punch you hard...
Then I am not as good as Gandhiji to say, Please do. I will say, "Dare you. I will kill you before that."

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Posted: 24 May 2015 at 9:06am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Brahmaputra

I don't like Karna Kunti poem by Tagore as it shows Kunti in a bad light. (no offense to Kunti haters, for god sake). Also, I never felt sympathy for whatever happened to Karna, honestly. When it is very clear that under which circumstances she had to abandon Karna continuously, I don't think she should be criticised for that. All those who are ready with tamaatars & andaas, remember, they are very costly these days and read MB please. I am in no mood to write an essay on Kunti.
 
Jamy, just as another forum member, I am telling you edit your postROFL 
Otherwise you will be bashed by people for  so called Tagore Bashing. ROFL
Somehow you are right by the way... and that is another reason you should edit. ROFL
Sorry but I cant help laughing LOL
Actually the reason I like the poem is because of the treatment.. The language, His expressions, and as a poem on whole KK Sangbad is excellent. But I totally agree with you when you talk about the message the poem is giving.. it is definitely demeaning Kunti.. Atleast my understanding tells me that...So I definitely DO NOT agree with the views of the poem..
 
 
 


Edited by CaptainSpark - 24 May 2015 at 9:14am

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Brahmaputra

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Posted: 24 May 2015 at 9:11am | IP Logged
Originally posted by amritat



This is y Tagore is Tagore...
How brilliantly, he had brought out Karna's pain...n even Kunti's...

Although, if I am not wrong, Kunti's intentions were not completely pure, I love this narration n the way Tagore brought out the emotions...
 
Why Amrita do you think that about Kunti? Cry 
Sorry but I just CANNOT stop myself from defending my favourite...Cry But that does not mean your point is totally invalid... Smile


Edited by CaptainSpark - 24 May 2015 at 9:11am

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amritat

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Posted: 24 May 2015 at 9:23am | IP Logged

Amrita

Not quoting your incredibly long postLOL Definitely Karna is the most popular character of Mahabharat even outside Bengal.. But it is true..atleast from my experience, that Bengalis see Karna is another light.. they workship him more than others.. in general.. And I feel Kashidashi Mahabharata, Karna Kunti Sangbad, Pother Panchali's Karna scene are highly responsible for this.. I am not blaming the authors for their creative liberty.. Ofcourse they can write. Infact they have given us some of the best literary pieces... Its not anyones fault but I feel Bengalis are a bigger lover of tragedy as a whole and also tears (Have you seen Bengali serials?LOL).. The whole world are lovers of tragedy.. Hamlet and Macbeth are anyday more popular than Merchant of Venice or Comedy of Errors.. But I still feel Bengalis are a bit more inclined.. you don't have to think the same..
As far Madhusudan Dutta is concerned, I agree with every word you said about him being one of best poets Bengal and the whole of world has seen... I am again not blaming him.. But his Meghnath vadh Kavya is highly a great example of workshipping villians.. I DONT MEAN TO DEMEAN HIM. It is a classic poem...BUT...the point remains.. these poems provoke workshipping of villians as a whole.. Thinking that villians the ones we knew as bad were not actually bad..this idea..

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