Dharamkshetra discussion thread 2 (Page 26)

CaptainSpark IF-Rockerz

Joined: 03 January 2014
Posts: 9858

Posted: 23 May 2015 at 6:13am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Urmila11

Thanks Brishti for posting its translation. I'm sure that almost everyone here will cry for Karna only after reading it Wink but you know, I have cried for Mata Kunti Cry no one feels that lady's broken heart!
Dude, why do you end up saying everything I feel? LOL But umm, I also cried for Karna only in this one LOL But Kunti, she is my fave after Arjun and I love her. Once in school I had a debate with my Bangla teacher because she called Karna loyal. And everyone was against Kunti in my class (especially one girlAngry) so I had a debate and I proved my point! And my teacher praised me Big smile

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DurgaS IF-Dazzler

Joined: 12 February 2013
Posts: 3955

Posted: 23 May 2015 at 6:18am | IP Logged
Originally posted by CaptainSpark

@Durga - Welcome! Now enjoy the poem Wink (PLEASE DONT BECOME A KARNA FAN!)
Oh, I am not a fan of any character. Everyone with their plus and minus points, some had more pluses and some more minuses. It was the choices that they made which made them good or bad. Some abided by dharma, some dislodged it. Those who abided became heroes. Some became martyrs, some defeated, some became victorious. The decisions or choices they made in life lead them to their respective results. In this battle of Dharma and Karma, very difficult to choose one as favourite. 

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amritat IF-Dazzler

Joined: 16 March 2011
Posts: 4046

Posted: 23 May 2015 at 6:31am | IP Logged
Originally posted by DurgaS

Originally posted by CaptainSpark

@Durga - Welcome! Now enjoy the poem Wink(PLEASE DONT BECOME A KARNA FAN!)

<font face="Comic Sans MS, Times, serif" size="2" color="#000066">Oh, I am not a fan of any character. Everyone with their plus and minus points, some had more pluses and some more minuses. It was the choices that they made which made them good or bad. Some abided by dharma, some dislodged it. Those who abided became heroes. Some became martyrs, some defeated, some became victorious. The decisions or choices they made in life lead them to their respective results. In this battle of Dharma and Karma, very difficult to choose one as favourite.</font>

Well said Durga...
amritat IF-Dazzler

Joined: 16 March 2011
Posts: 4046

Posted: 23 May 2015 at 6:47am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Brahmaputra

Originally posted by amritat

Interesting discussions going on...

From Ramayan to Mahabharat to Rabindranath Tagore to Madhusudhan

As for Karna...well the new serial with Karna on Sony is sending chills down my spine... LOL
With another show on none other than Karna, I can clearly visualize the state of the forum... LOL
Same old debates, same old discussions n sarcastic members...same old bashing...everything will start again...
My curiosity wont let me stay away from the forum n those debates will start there as well...with some new members joining the group... LOL

I wish Siddharth Tewary had chosen some other area of interest... Cry
I dont get it what is so much there in Karna's life to be shown in a daily soap. I am not being anti Karna here. For a film, it is okay. There is enough. But for a daily show, there is nothing much written about his life in MB. He comes, says something sharp or sweet, fights & goes. This is what MB has about him. I read that the show will be based on MJ. In that case, it is better not to watch. Trust me, that book is good for nothing. I hate it to the core coz many people believe what stupidity written in it is the ultimate truth about Karna. As you said, that forum will have same old debates which have became boring for me now. How long we shall debate on same things without reaching at any point? LOL. Honeslty, there is nothing left to discuss about Karna than what did in MB forum. I guess many Karnalis will turn against the show if it shows stupid things in name of Karna's life.

Jamy...this is y u are my favourite Karna fan... Big smile

In fact u are the first Karna fan who didnt like Shivaji Sawant's novel...I must say, the author deserves a lot of claps for being so convincing...y else would people believe everything in the novel?
It is full of factual errors but the author(from wat I have heard) has done a brilliant job, as far as his writing is concerned...everyone I know who has read the novel has gone into a trance about Karna... LOL
You are the only one who has remained in senses...

I hope somone could come up with a similar novel on Draupadi...justifying every action of her with a folktale... Wink...creating fake characters n creative incidents to justify her thirst for justice...Evil Smile

I wouldnt mind a similar novel on Arjun n Kunti too...

And dont worry...I dont think Karnalis will have issues with this serial... LOL
In fact a lot of Karnalis n Karnalas will get added to the already exploding fan base...

Edited by amritat - 23 May 2015 at 6:51am

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Brahmaputra IF-Sizzlerz

Joined: 12 February 2012
Posts: 13307

Posted: 23 May 2015 at 6:47am | IP Logged
Brishti, you did not sound harsh. It is clearly written that Drona out of his partiality for Arjuna, denied Brahmastra for Karna. That was neither Karna's mistake nor because of he was incapable of learning it. If this event is true (I dont believe it happened as you know) Drona knew Karna was capable but he denied knowledge for Karna because he loved Arjuna more. Drona did what no guru should have done. If you believe Karna was Drona's student, this very partiality was the reason Karna did not like Arjuna though Arjuna was innocent in it. Drona did let a small child's jealousy grow into hatredness when he as a guru was supposed to correct Karna there. But as I dont think Karna was nowhere Drona's student, what Drona did to him is not a matter to me.
Karna did not jump in Rangabhoomi when Drona announced Arjuna as the best archer. In fact, Drona did not announce any such thing at all. Trust me, Karna entered only after everyone stopped appreciating what Arjuna did. ("And, O Bharata, when the exhibition had well-nigh ended, the excitement of the spectators had cooled, and the sounds of instruments had died out there was heard proceeding from the gate, the slapping of arms, betokening might and strength, and even like unto the roar of the thunder - KMG, Adi parva 137). In fact, he entered by clapping for what Arjuna did a few minutes ago. He was not clapping for himself, surely.LOL If you read Rangabhoomi event, it is clear that Karna was a stranger to all those who were present there. (they all exclaim who is he who is he) Had Karna been a student with Ps & Ks, that would not have been the case. That is one reason why I say he was not a student of Drona. No one recognised him. And yes; he did not say he was better than Arjuna or Arjuna was less than him. What he said was "I shall show whatever you did, faster than you & you will be amazed by it". He was just being enthusiastic to show his skills. Else why did he tell Arjuna that "you will be amazed by it?". That was more a friendly dialogue, I think. He was very cool when he said it, he is not said to be in anger and all then.
Karna never said he wanted to prove superior to Arjuna. I dont remember any such dialogue. And yes he said many times that he wished to be accepted for what he was. I dont think that is needed to be taken as against Arjuna. Neither Arjuna ever said anything like that about Karna. What Karna always said he was never given a chance to prove his skill. And the only person capable of fighing him was Arjuna. Karna was never afraid of beind defeated, he said it many times. So queation of defeating or killing do not arise. But what important to him was to show what he knew or what he was capable of. He tells that to Krishna also that he never cared outcomes of what he did, he cared only what he did & accepted whatever the result is. (that is what Krishna also told Arjuna - dont think about the result, do what you suppose to do; isn't it?) How can we take that as he wanted to kill or defeat Arjuna? He wanted to show his skill whether he got defeated or not. Showing his skill was more important to Karna, not Arjuna. I dont think he needed to defeat or kill to show his skill. I guess it is better to read Karna Krishna conversation than reading what I write.

Edited by Brahmaputra - 23 May 2015 at 6:51am

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Brahmaputra IF-Sizzlerz

Joined: 12 February 2012
Posts: 13307

Posted: 23 May 2015 at 6:59am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Urmila11

In rangabhumi, Karna threatened Arjun. See this citation:

replied, 'This arena is meant for all, not for thee alone, O Phalguna! They are
kings who are superior in energy; and verily the Kshatriya regardeth might and
might alone. What need of altercation which is the exercise of the weak? O
Bharata, speak then in arrows until with arrows I strike off thy head today
before the preceptor himself!'

When you quote make it sure that you dont eat away some part of it.

"Vaisampayana continued, 'Arjuna, after this, deeming himself disgraced, said unto Karna stationed amidst the brothers like unto a cliff, 'That path which the unwelcome intruder and the uninvited talker cometh to, shall be thine, O Karna, for thou shall be slain by me.' Karna replied, 'This arena is meant for all, not for thee alone, O Phalguna! They are kings who are superior in energy; and verily the Kshatriya regardeth might and might alone.What need of altercation which is the exercise of the weak? O Bharata, speak then in arrows until with arrows I strike off thy head today before the preceptor himself!'

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amritat IF-Dazzler

Joined: 16 March 2011
Posts: 4046

Posted: 23 May 2015 at 7:09am | IP Logged
Originally posted by CaptainSpark

Here you go, Durga! The only work on Karna which made me cry. I CRIED being an ardent Karna hater, This one is a classic! Must read...

Karna Kunti Sangbad by Rabindranath Tagore

Rabindranath Tagore

Dialogue between Karna and Kunti

<font size="3">Karna:</font>

<font size="3">On sacred Jahnavi's shore I say my prayers</font>

<font size="3">to the evening sun. Karna is my name,</font>

<font size="3">son of Adhirath the charioteer, and Radha is my mother.</font>

<font size="3">That's who I am. Lady, who are you?</font>

<font size="3">Kunti:</font>

<font size="3">Child, in the first dawn of your life</font>

<font size="3">it was I who introduced you to this wide world.</font>

<font size="3">That's me, and today I've cast aside</font>

<font size="3">all embarrassment, to tell you who I am.</font>

<font size="3">Karna:</font>

<font size="3">Respected lady, the light of your lowered eyes</font>

<font size="3">melts my heart, as the sun's rays melt</font>

<font size="3">mountain snows. Your voice</font>

<font size="3">pierces my ears as a voice from a previous birth</font>

<font size="3">and stirs strange pain. Tell me then,</font>

<font size="3">by what mystery's chain is my birth linked</font>

<font size="3">to you, unknown woman?</font>

<font size="3">Kunti:</font>

<font size="3">                                              Oh, be patient,</font>

<font size="3">child, for a moment! Let the sun-god first</font>

<font size="3">slide to his rest, and let evening's darkness</font>

<font size="3">thicken round us. - Now let me tell you, warrior,</font>

<font size="3">I am Kunti.</font>

<font size="3">Karna:</font>

<font size="3">                        You are Kunti! The mother of Arjun!</font>

<font size="3">Kunti:</font>

<font size="3">Arjun's mother indeed! But son,</font>

<font size="3">don't hate me for that. How I still recall</font>

<font size="3">the day of the tournament when you, a young bachelor,</font>

<font size="3">slowly entered the arena in Hastina-city</font>

<font size="3">as the newly rising sun enters the margin</font>

<font size="3">of the eastern sky, still pricked out with stars!</font>

<font size="3">Of all the women watching from behind a screen</font>

<font size="3">who was she, bereft of speech, of luck,</font>

<font size="3">who felt within her tortured breast the pangs</font>

<font size="3">of hungering love, a thousand she-snake fangs?</font>

<font size="3">Whose eyes covered your limbs with blessing's kisses?</font>

<font size="3">It was Arjun's mother! When Kripa advanced</font>

<font size="3">and smiling, asked you to announce your father's name,</font>

<font size="3">saying, He who is not of a royal family born</font>

<font size="3">has no right to challenge Arjun at all,' -</font>

<font size="3">then you, speechless, red with shame, face lowered,</font>

<font size="3">just stood there, and she whose bosom your gleam</font>

<font size="3">of embarrassment burnt like fire: who was that</font>

<font size="3">unlucky woman? Arjun's mother it was!</font>

<font size="3">Blessed is that lad Durjodhan, who thereupon</font>

<font size="3">at once crowned you prince of Anga. Yes, I praise him!</font>

<font size="3">And as you were crowned, the tears streamed from my eyes</font>

<font size="3">to rush towards you, to overflow your head,</font>

<font size="3">when, making his way into the arena,</font>

<font size="3">in entered Adhirath the charioteer, beside himself</font>

<font size="3">with joy, and you, too, in your royal gear</font>

<font size="3">in the midst of the curious crowds milling around</font>

<font size="3">bowed your only-just-anointed head, and saluted</font>

<font size="3">the feet of the old charioteer, calling him Father.</font>

<font size="3">Cruelly, contemptuously they smiled -</font>

<font size="3">the friends of the Pandavs; and right at that instant</font>

<font size="3">she who blessed you as a hero, O you jewel amongst heroes,</font>

<font size="3">I am that woman, the mother of Arjun.</font>

<font size="3">Karna:</font>

<font size="3">I salute you, noble lady. A royal mother you are:</font>

<font size="3">so why are you here alone? This is a field of battle,</font>

<font size="3">and I am the commander of the Kaurav army.</font>

<font size="3">Kunti:</font>

<font size="3">                        Son, I've come to beg a favour of you -</font>

<font size="3">Don't turn me away empty-handed.</font>

<font size="3">Karna:</font>

<font size="3">                                              A favour? From me!</font>

<font size="3">Barring my manhood, and what dharma requires,</font>

<font size="3">the rest will be at your feet if you so desire.</font>

<font size="3">Kunti:</font>

<font size="3">I have come to take you away.</font>

<font size="3">Karna:</font>

<font size="3">                                  And where will you take me?</font>

<font size="3">Kunti:</font>

<font size="3">To my thirsty bosom - to my maternal lap.</font>

<font size="3">Karna:</font>

<font size="3">A lucky woman you are, blessed with five sons,</font>

<font size="3">and I am just a petty princeling, without pedigree -</font>

<font size="3">where would you find room for me?</font>

<font size="3">Kunti:</font>

<font size="3">                                                        Right at the top!</font>

<font size="3">I would place you above all my other sons,</font>

<font size="3">for you are the eldest.</font>

<font size="3">Karna:</font>

<font size="3">                                  By what right </font>

<font size="3">would I enter that sanctum? Tell me how</font>

<font size="3">from those already cheated of empire</font>

<font size="3">I could possibly take a portion of that wealth,</font>

<font size="3">a mother's love, which is fully theirs.</font>

<font size="3">A mother's heart cannot be gambled away</font>

<font size="3">nor be defeated by force. It's a divine gift.</font>

<font size="3">Kunti:</font>

<font size="3">                                              O my son,</font>

<font size="3">with a divine right indeed you had one day </font>

<font size="3">come to this lap - and by that same right</font>

<font size="3">return again, with glory; don't worry at all -</font>

<font size="3">take your own place amongst all your brothers,</font>

<font size="3">on my maternal lap.</font>

<font size="3">Karna:</font>

<font size="3">                                              As if in a dream</font>

<font size="3">I hear your voice, honoured lady. Look, darkness has</font>

<font size="3">engulfed the entire horizon, swallowed the four quarters,</font>

<font size="3">and the river has fallen silent. You have whisked me off</font>

<font size="3">to some enchanted world, some forgotten home,</font>

<font size="3">to the very dawn of awareness. Your words</font>

<font size="3">like age-old truths touch my fascinated heart.</font>

<font size="3">It's as if my own inchoate infancy,</font>

<font size="3">the very obscurity of my mother's womb</font>

<font size="3">was encircling me today. O royal mother,</font>

<font size="3">loving woman, - be this real, or a dream, -</font>

<font size="3">come place your right hand on my brow, my chin</font>

<font size="3">for just a moment. Indeed I had heard</font>

<font size="3">that I had been abandoned by my natural mother.</font>

<font size="3">How often in the depth of night I've had this dream:</font>

<font size="3">that slowly, softly my mother had come to see me,</font>

<font size="3">and I've felt so bleak, and beseeched her in tears,</font>

<font size="3">Mother, remove your veil, let me see your face,' -</font>

<font size="3">and at once the figure has vanished, tearing apart</font>

<font size="3">my greedy thirsty dream. That very dream -</font>

<font size="3">has it come today in the guise of the Pandav mother</font>

<font size="3">this evening, on the battlefield, by the Bhagirathi?</font>

<font size="3">Behold, lady, on the other bank, in the Pandav camp</font>

<font size="3">the lights come on, and on this bank, not far,</font>

<font size="3">in the Kaurav stables a hundred thousand horses</font>

<font size="3">stamp their hooves. Tomorrow morning</font>

<font size="3">the great battle begins. Why tonight</font>

<font size="3">did I have to hear from Arjun's mother's throat</font>

<font size="3">my own mother's voice? Why did my name</font>

<font size="3">ring in her mouth with such exquisite music -</font>

<font size="3">so much so that suddenly my heart</font>

<font size="3">rushes towards the five Pandavs, calling them brothers'?</font>

<font size="3">Kunti:</font>

<font size="3">Then come on, son, come along with me.</font>

<font size="3">Karna:</font>

<font size="3">Yes, Mother, I'll go with you. I won't ask questions -</font>

<font size="3">without a doubt, without a worry, I'll go.</font>

<font size="3">Lady, you are my mother! And your call</font>

<font size="3">has awakened my soul - no longer can I hear</font>

<font size="3">the drums of battle, victory's conch-shells.</font>

<font size="3">The violence of war, a hero's fame, triumph and defeat -</font>

<font size="3">all seem false. Take me. Where should I go?</font>

<font size="3">Kunti:</font>

<font size="3">                                  There, on the other bank,</font>

<font size="3">where the lamps burn in the still tents</font>

<font size="3">on the pale sands.</font>

<font size="3">Karna:</font>

<font size="3">                                              And there a motherless son</font>

<font size="3">shall find his mother for ever! There the pole star</font>

<font size="3">shall wake all night in your lovely generous</font>

<font size="3">eyes. Lady, one more time</font>

<font size="3">say I am your son.</font>

<font size="3">Kunti:</font>

<font size="3">                                    My son!</font>

<font size="3">Karna:</font>

<font size="3">                                              Then why</font>

<font size="3">did you discard me so ingloriously -</font>

<font size="3">no family honour, no mother's eyes to watch me -</font>

<font size="3">to the mercy of this blind, unknown world? Why did you</font>

<font size="3">let me float away on the current of contempt</font>

<font size="3">so irreversibly, banishing me from my brothers?</font>

<font size="3">You put a distance between Arjun and me,</font>

<font size="3">whence from childhood a subtle invisible bond</font>

<font size="3">of bitter enmity pulls us to each other</font>

<font size="3">in an irresistible attraction. -</font>

<font size="3">                                              Mother, you have no answer?</font>

<font size="3">I sense your embarrassment piercing these dark layers</font>

<font size="3">and touching all my limbs without any words,</font>

<font size="3">closing my eyes. Let it be then -</font>

<font size="3">you don't have to explain why you cast me aside.</font>

<font size="3">A mother's love is God's first gift on this earth;</font>

<font size="3">why that sacred jewel you had to snatch</font>

<font size="3">from your own child is a question you may choose</font>

<font size="3">not to answer! But tell me then:</font>

<font size="3">why have you come to take me back again?</font>

<font size="3">Kunti:</font>

<font size="3">Child, let your reprimands</font>

<font size="3">like a hundred thunderclaps rend this heart of mine</font>

<font size="3">into a hundred pieces. That I'd cast you aside</font>

<font size="3">is a curse that hounds me, which is why</font>

<font size="3">my heart is childless even with five dear sons,</font>

<font size="3">why it is you that my arms go seeking in this world,</font>

<font size="3">flapping and flailing. It is for that deprived child</font>

<font size="3">that my heart lights a lamp, and by burning itself</font>

<font size="3">pays its homage to the Maker of this universe.</font>

<font size="3">Today I count myself fortunate</font>

<font size="3">that I have managed to see you. When your mouth</font>

<font size="3">hadn't yet uttered a word, I did commit</font>

<font size="3">a horrendous crime. Son, with that same mouth</font>

<font size="3">forgive your bad mother. Let that forgiveness burn</font>

<font size="3">fiercer than any rebukes within my breast,</font>

<font size="3">reduce my sins to ashes and make me pure!</font>

<font size="3">Karna:</font>

<font size="3">O Mother, give - give me the dust of your feet,</font>

<font size="3">and take my tears!</font>

<font size="3">Kunti:</font>

<font size="3">                                  Son, I did not come</font>

<font size="3">simply in the happy hope of clutching you to my breast,</font>

<font size="3">but to take you back where you by right belong.</font>

<font size="3">You are not a charioteer's son, but of royal birth -</font>

<font size="3">so cast aside the insults that have been your lot</font>

<font size="3">and come where they all are - your five brothers.</font>

<font size="3">Karna:</font>

<font size="3">But Mother, I am a charioteer's son,</font>

<font size="3">and Radha's my mother - glory greater than that</font>

<font size="3">I have none. Let the Pandavs be Pandavs, the Kauravs</font>

<font size="3">Kauravs - I envy nobody.</font>

<font size="3">Kunti:</font>

<font size="3">                                  With the puissance of your arms</font>

<font size="3">recover the kingdom that's your own, my son.</font>

<font size="3">Judhisthir will cool you, moving a white fan;</font>

<font size="3">Bhim will hold up your umbrella; Arjun the hero</font>

<font size="3">will drive your chariot; Dhaumya the priest</font>

<font size="3">will chant Vedic mantras; and you, vanquisher of foes,</font>

<font size="3">will live with your kinsmen, sole ruler in your kingdom,</font>

<font size="3">sitting on your jewelled throne, sharing power with none.</font>

<font size="3">Karna:</font>

<font size="3">Throne, indeed! To one who's just refused the maternal bond</font>

<font size="3">are you offering, Mother, assurances of a kingdom?</font>

<font size="3">The riches from which you once disinherited me</font>

<font size="3">cannot be returned - it's beyond your powers.</font>

<font size="3">When I was born, Mother, from me you tore</font>

<font size="3">mother, brothers, royal family - all at one go.</font>

<font size="3">If today I cheat my foster-mother, her of charioteer caste,</font>

<font size="3">and boldly address as my own mother a royal materfamilias,</font>

<font size="3">if I snap the ties that bind me to the lord</font>

<font size="3">of the Kuru clan, and lust after a royal throne,</font>

<font size="3">then fie on me!</font>

<font size="3">Kunti:</font>

<font size="3">                                  Blessed are you, my son, for you are</font>

<font size="3">truly heroic. Alas, Dharma, how stern your justice is!</font>

<font size="3">Who knew, alas, that day</font>

<font size="3">when I forsook a tiny, helpless child,</font>

<font size="3">that from somewhere he would gain a hero's powers,</font>

<font size="3">return one day along a darkened path,</font>

<font size="3">and with his own cruel hands hurl weapons at those</font>

<font size="3">who are his brothers, born of the same mother!</font>

<font size="3">What a curse this is!</font>

<font size="3">Karna:</font>

<font size="3">                                  Mother, don't be afraid.</font>

<font size="3">Let me predict: it's the Pandavs who will win.</font>

<font size="3">On the panel of this night's gloom I can clearly read</font>

<font size="3">before my eyes the dire results of war:</font>

<font size="3">legible in starlight. This quiet, unruffled hour</font>

<font size="3">from the infinite sky a music drifts to my ears:</font>

<font size="3">of effort without victory, sweat of work without hope -</font>

<font size="3">I can see the end, full of peace and emptiness.</font>

<font size="3">The side that is going to lose -</font>

<font size="3">please don't ask me to desert that side.</font>

<font size="3">Let Pandu's children win, and become kings,</font>

<font size="3">let me stay with the losers, those whose hopes will be dashed.</font>

<font size="3">The night of my birth you left me upon the earth:</font>

<font size="3">nameless, homeless. In the same way today</font>

<font size="3">be ruthless, Mother, and just abandon me:</font>

<font size="3">leave me to my defeat, infamous, lustreless.</font>

<font size="3">Only this blessing grant me before you leave:</font>

<font size="3">may greed for victory, for fame, or for a kingdom</font>

<font size="3">never deflect me from a hero's path and salvation.</font>

<font size="3">Translated by Ketaki Kushari Dyson</font>

<font size="3">[Spring 2000]</font>

This is y Tagore is Tagore...
How brilliantly, he had brought out Karna's pain...n even Kunti's...

Although, if I am not wrong, Kunti's intentions were not completely pure, I love this narration n the way Tagore brought out the emotions...
Brahmaputra IF-Sizzlerz

Joined: 12 February 2012
Posts: 13307

Posted: 23 May 2015 at 7:20am | IP Logged
Amrita,   thanks a lot for the compliment. Shivaji Sawant should be applauded for his language. MJ has nothing more than beautiful language. And honeslty, it repeats same things a lot which I dont like. He actually did a bad job as an author as he convinced people to believe in lies. Of couse he added a lot of lies in it. I cannot accept anything that appears stupid to me, even if that is about my favourites. I dont think we need stories to justify what Draupadi did. She did & respect her for what she was. Why need justification for all? Justifiction is never needed actually. Those who like her will surely need no justicfication at all. And those who don't, will not consider whatever you say because they just dont want to see her as she was. It is their choice to remain foolish. Let them be. Enjoy that na? Dont spoil it.LOL And still you can give justification if you wanna kill free time.Wink

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