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Draw Muhammad contest Taxas!!! WHY?? (Page 2)

-Aarya- IF-Dazzler
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Posted: 05 May 2015 at 6:59pm | IP Logged
Free speech  hangs on a thin string, and someone with a public voice, the free speech benefits from an extra megaphone, and the basic principle of free speech means you can say what you  want whenever you  want it, in practice one should think carefully about the impact of the words and how they might be felt among others whether or not they share the belief system. I personally believe that in not saying something just because you want to speak, but because you  want to be heard. so  when someone  open their mouth, they should not want to be part of the problem, but rather be  part of the solution and it's important we remember that free speech and respect should go hand-in-hand.


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clockworknerd

BirdieNumNum Goldie
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Posted: 05 May 2015 at 7:13pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by K.Universe.

Originally posted by 9tanki



Whats wrong in making cartoon of Muhammad? Cartoonist make fun of everyone don't they ? It gives nobody right to kill someone just because they drew picture of Muhammad. We see everyday one thing could be religious for one group but the other group insult it, thats the new reality. It doesnt mean people can come out with guns and start defending their religious belief on others.





Let's get the obvious stuff out of the way. Yes, killing in the name of religion is bad. Yes, nobody has a right to kill regardless of the provocation. Yes, just because people are offended, doesn't mean they should start a holy war.

I don't see a need to debate the above paragraph.

What is unconscionable, in my opinion, is the deliberateness of the act. They know that a large number of groups across the world would consider this act blasphemous. They know that a large number of groups across the world will be infuriated by this act. They know they would be hurting the religious sentiments of a large number of groups across the world by this act. Still they went ahead and did it. In short, they incited.

Offense, in my opinion, has levels to it. As an example, if Birdie cackles during a serious debate, I get offended. But the level of offense there is not the same as, say, a MF Husain drawing Hindu Goddesses or mother India, naked. On a scale of 1 to 10, if Birdie's cackle is at a 1, then MF Husain's act would be at a 7 or 8 for me.

Now you may question me why I should get offended if someone hurts my "religious sentiments". First of, I am ignostic. I don't have any religious sentiments. But it is the deliberateness with which the other party is trying to incite me, that is maddening me. It is the challenge of the provocateur that is causing the anger. It is the inflammatory action that is ticking me off. In that sense, the agitator has succeeded in agitating me.

If it is just one person like me who is getting agitated then perhaps countries may ignore.

If it is large groups of people who are getting agitated, then that is a potential risk to peace that some of us are not willing to absorb, just so a few troublemakers could have their fill of amusement under the guise of "free speech".



a lot of quacking and still gets you a big duck.LOL

as usual, you were dismissive of the main argument- killing is totally wrong, and it can have no justification, not even the intellectually phony incitement argument you came up with. 

basically, these guys have a nervous tic. LOLIf not the cartoons, there'd be something or the other that will get them rampaging. You just need to see the medieval east to understand that. 

I think the cartoons might actually serve a purpose. They hold a mirror to these people and might, just might, get them to be ashamed of their medieval mindset. In any case, these guys need to develop a sense of humor. They are too uptight for them own good. So buddy, just chill and get them to chill.LOL

oh by the way, just like it was important to stand up to the nazis no matter what the cost, i think it is important for the world to stand up to these mindless dangerous religious nazis. Just dont ignore them in the belief that they'll let you live and let live because they never do. It would have been a mistake to appease the nazis, and it would be a mistake to bend our principles to appease these guys now...These guys have shown that they can never be in harmony with others. 

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9tanki

K.Universe. Goldie
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Posted: 05 May 2015 at 7:41pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by BirdieNumNum


if not the cartoons, there'd be something or the other that will get them rampaging.
 


But this debate is about the cartoons, asswipe! How is a slippery slope going to help us in this context? The idea is to deal with real issues (such as those in happening Syria or Libya)  not create artificial ones like these pointless cartoon drawing contests.
Summer3 IF-Stunnerz
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Posted: 05 May 2015 at 8:03pm | IP Logged
Freedom of speech does not mean blabbering nonsense or offending others. We should be more mindful and responsible.
 
Yes generally it is hard to act in a way that pleases everybody but this Contest of drawing Muhammed is a bit too much !

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clockworknerdToo_Much_Darling_

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Posted: 05 May 2015 at 10:03pm | IP Logged
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K.Universe. Goldie
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Posted: 05 May 2015 at 10:22pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by Rehanism



Muslim countries are extremely closeted and autocratic with low tolerance for dissent in general and that makes blasphemy and heresy capital offenses in the eyes of many average Muslims. If we avoid offending them in fear of violence, they will never break out of that mindset. That would be a tacit approval of the notion of sacrilege on our part. And they'll never know that getting violent is NOT natural or acceptable reaction to a cartoon or a book. They'll never learn to respect freedoms and individual rights. The only way we can make them look upon blasphemy with less outrage and anger is by make it a regular affair.





Their appreciation for freedom of expression should come from within. Not from outside and definitely not from the deeply despised "west". There is enough rancor already and provocations such as these will only serve as the straws that broke the camel's back (with respect to goodwill) as well as serve as the straws that become fodder for organizations like Islamic State and Al-Qaeda to help them recruit jihadists more easily. In reality what we are dishing here, through these cartoon drawing contests of their religious polity, is not free speech; it is hate-speech.

It is not the fear of violence that should make us oppose these contests. It is the risk vs. reward assessment that should. There is no conceivable reward to hosting these contests so risk mitigation then becomes a must.

Whatever you suggested at the end is absolutely counterproductive to what you intend to achieve (assuming your intentions were genuine to begin with). There is no way you can disrespect who they revere and still expect them to learn about the tents of free speech at the same time. If you really understood them, then you should also know that they will only respond in one way to this mockery. The one we are all familiar with. How does this new contest change anything? What miracle would it do?


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Lost-angelArwen._Darling_Summer3

K.Universe. Goldie
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Posted: 05 May 2015 at 10:38pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by 9tanki



Did anyone see the cartoon those cartoonist were drawing ? So, how can anyone conclude it was in a bad light or it was to instigate a group ? If something was offending then they could protest about it, and not necessarily come on the street with the gun. If large group of people think such catoons can agitate them or instigate them to do violence, then they need help and they need to see anger management counselor. .  



It's called aniconism. They don't believe in imagery of religious figures, prophets and divine beings. That is their faith.

By telling them not to get offended, you are as good as saying forget religion and forget God. Not gonna happen.


Originally posted by 9tanki


Its free speech and freedom of artistic that is always compromise when it comes to muslim. 
Even media is scared of this extremist and thats why they didnt showed cartoons of Muhammad either after Charlies Hebdo attack or recent Texas attack. Same media had no issue airing "Piss Christ" picture. This media is scared of extremist. Everytime anyone says something about Muhammad fatwas is issued to kill them. Anyways, Who is more extremist one who Is drawing cartoon of Muhammad or one who brings gun to kill innocent people ?


I didn't call the ones participating in or hosting these contests as extremists. I do think of them as instigators. As for those who kill innocent people, both of us already agreed on the extremism aspect of it.




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Summer3

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Posted: 05 May 2015 at 11:46pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by K.Universe.

Originally posted by Rehanism



Muslim countries are extremely closeted and autocratic with low tolerance for dissent in general and that makes blasphemy and heresy capital offenses in the eyes of many average Muslims. If we avoid offending them in fear of violence, they will never break out of that mindset. That would be a tacit approval of the notion of sacrilege on our part. And they'll never know that getting violent is NOT natural or acceptable reaction to a cartoon or a book. They'll never learn to respect freedoms and individual rights. The only way we can make them look upon blasphemy with less outrage and anger is by make it a regular affair.





Their appreciation for freedom of expression should come from within. Not from outside and definitely not from the deeply despised "west". There is enough rancor already and provocations such as these will only serve as the straws that broke the camel's back (with respect to goodwill) as well as serve as the straws that become fodder for organizations like Islamic State and Al-Qaeda to help them recruit jihadists more easily. In reality what we are dishing here, through these cartoon drawing contests of their religious polity, is not free speech; it is hate-speech.

It will never come from within unless they are subjected to radically different circumstances. Why should they change? What is their incentive? Species evolve only if there's a radical change in their environment. Without any external challenge there is no need to adapt or evolve. Muslims are more radicalized community because they grow up in societies stringently controlled by clergy and politicians that have kept them bullied with threats of violence. Most of them have never been exposed to dissent beyond a certain limit.

Tyranny thrives by criminalizing mockery. And therefore the most potent weapon against any form of tyranny is mockery. Through repeated mockery you destroy the halo and awe that tyrants build around their personality. French have mastered that art of crude mockery. Hate speech is targeted against people, not ideas and figureheads.

There's no reason to believe that Christians suddenly had a change of heart and gave up their stance on blasphemy all by themselves. It was the regular onslaught of heretics that forced them to do so. When something becomes a regular sight the sense of outrage is automatically mellowed down. There will be initial cultural shocks and repercussions - we are going through that phase - but in the long run Muslims will learn to live with it.


It is not the fear of violence that should make us oppose these contests. It is the risk vs. reward assessment that should. There is no conceivable reward to hosting these contests so risk mitigation then becomes a must.

That assessment should be made for short term and long term as well. If the long term rewards outweigh the short term risks, I don't find it a bad bargain at all.

Whatever you suggested at the end is absolutely counterproductive to what you intend to achieve (assuming your intentions were genuine to begin with). There is no way you can disrespect who they revere and still expect them to learn about the tents of free speech at the same time. If you really understood them, then you should also know that they will only respond in one way to this mockery. The one we are all familiar with. How does this new contest change anything? What miracle would it
do?

No, I think they are capable of better. There's no reason to believe that Muslims are simply incapable of controlling their rage and turn into some wild beast the moment they lay their eyes upon some silly cartoon.

India has been traditionally cautious about not offending Muslims. We have been taking off books from shelves and TV shows off the air since last few decades. Has it helped Muslims or anyone? It has only made the fundamentalists more confident. And as a by product it has also helped radicalize Hindu community. Hindus have been convinced that the establishment is selectively pandering to Muslim bullies while expecting Hindus to modernise and secularise and tolerate blasphemy. This is the reason Hindus have been leaning towards the Right in such large numbers. The same thing will happen in the West when the Christians see that its ok to draw a cartoon of Jesus and Moses and poke fun at the pope but its apparently racist to draw Muhammad.

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