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Mahakumbh 77-80: Distorting mirrors (Page 7)

happychappy IF-Dazzler
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Posted: 05 May 2015 at 11:04am | IP Logged
Excellent post, Sruthi...Clap
Never looked at MB from so deeply feminist a perspective. You are right about all the 'bali' but Uttara's wedding - was it not engineered by Krishna? Knowing well that she would be widowed so young.,.Confused That would also qualify as a sacrifice would it not?!
.

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sashashyamshruthiravi

pasumarthisa IF-Dazzler
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Posted: 05 May 2015 at 9:22pm | IP Logged
Shruti,
I would disagree with your thoughts on 'bali' here.

Keeping the  Puranas aside(Bhishma was totally wrong with Ambika-sisters and even he agreed to it), there was no indication that 'prakriti' is being sacrificed for 'purusha' here. 

Shivanand is no purusha and leela is no prakriti in my opinion. I mean they are as much prakriti as anyone else is.

All Garudas except Shiva see her as one among Nagas. Not just as a woman. There is nothing to suggest that they would be more lenient if it was a man.

In case of Rudra, Dansh did say that Rudra wont hurt women(did he? I remember vaguely). But he does put humanity first. He clearly says even today that Garudas have to be sensitive.

She came as a mole. For Garudas who dont know this, she is an unknown from enemy camp. Just because she offers to treat Maya, they should right away believe her? For Garudas, Maya is not a priority. Especially after Bhairavi made sure the poison wont spread.


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sashashyam

pasumarthisa IF-Dazzler
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Posted: 05 May 2015 at 9:27pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by happychappy

Excellent post, Sruthi...Clap
Never looked at MB from so deeply feminist a perspective. You are right about all the 'bali' but Uttara's wedding - was it not engineered by Krishna? Knowing well that she would be widowed so young.,.Confused That would also qualify as a sacrifice would it not?!
.

I dont think it was engineered by Krishna. Anyways in that case,  a lot more was engineered by Krishna. Probably Abhimanyu's death too. 

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sashashyam

shruthiravi IF-Sizzlerz
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Posted: 05 May 2015 at 10:14pm | IP Logged
@Shanti last part is a rant that prakriti Vs Purush. Don't take it seriously. But in the same post I have clearly said it was a battle of logic and conscience. Each Garud has to choose conscience or logic. it cannot be forced on them. Yes for Rudra humanity is important and Dansh said Rudra wont hurt woman. That is because of the lineage he has. In his family Naari Pooja is being done. Woman are respected unlike Veshes, Greysons or Nagas where woman are send to be a bali. Veshes send Maya, Greyson use Kat and now Nagas have sent Leela. Power of Veshes and Greyson is already with Garuds, power of Nagas needs to be taken away. Leela has to to come to Garud camp. Unlike Maya and Kat, Leela cannot be easily convinced. She wants to see action, affirmative action this is the camp where she will be respected unlike her own clan which is using her. Whole Nag bali business is for that conviction
@happy in 2013 MB it was shown like Uttara- Abhi wedding engineered by Krishna. But in the story I have read King Viraat asks Arjun to marry Uttara. Arjun tells Uttara is his disciple and a guru cannot marry Shishya so he is willing to take her as DIL. Even 2013 if you look Krishna didn't force a man the woman didn't like on her. There was a scene there also where Krishna looks at Uttara admiring Abhi and abhi admiring her back. That showed they liked each other. Then coming to death. Who can stop it. Even now the couple in perfect harmony sometimes one partner dies at a young age, that doesn't mean they shouldn't have married right. Whatever time Uttara spend with Abhi she was loved and cared, unlike Gandhari or Panchali who were suhaganas but was always at the receiving end of their husband's or son's insensitivity.


Edited by shruthiravi - 05 May 2015 at 10:19pm

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seedhibaatKitsinjayaks02

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Posted: 06 May 2015 at 2:10am | IP Logged
Shruti , I love how passionately you write about Mahabharat.Smile
You have mentioned about the Bali and how a woman are easy target. In regards to Mahabharat
i have a different angle to it. Satyavati's adamance led to a real Kuruvanshi' Devavrat' to turn to Bhishma. He is the last legitimate Kuru DNA in him who fought the war for a KURU throne. ideally Kuru Vansh stops at Devavrat. 

When Amba refused to marry Vichitravirya she was allowed to leave. She took revenge later. 

Dhritarashtra and Pandu are called KURU Vanshi only because of their mothers. NO kuru DNA in them. They are not known by their father's Vansh who is Vyas Muni. It makes me think sperm donation was a legal way of having progeny and was a accepted way which a Royal family sitting on throne used. Rajmata Satyavati could propose this.  

Kunti too has 4 sons from different /deities /fathers and still three of them are Accepted as Kuru. So is true for Madri sons. It makes me think there was a definite rules /laws for how to get a heir to the throne.  If all those ladies are from different Royal families I am sure they are aware of their rights, So I wont be calling them' bali ' . 

All the so called Kuru in Kurukshetra except Bhishma are not real Kuru . Bali of all those ladies is not something I have in mind. And if we think of your theory then because of ambition of some ladies led to a war which took lot of Bali. 
I will call it Neeyati, All so called Kuru vanshi born after Devavrat were male child. (except Dushhala)Smile( I guess Vyas Muni didnt bother messing with women after this.) 
I would go ahead and say there was enough knowledge of IVF too. If 100 kaurav are born it is possible to have many  successful IVFs and surrogate mothers. There is a mention that Kauravs are born from Ghrutkumbh (pot of  Ghee) which could be something resembling a test tube. Since lot of references are lost, currently  there are no concrete evidence.

Of couse this is my interpretation of events. I decided to put it here as I can see you have an avid interest in Mahabharat.Smile

Its such a shame all the knowledge is lost over the period. Angry


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Kitsinappukrishjayaks02mishtidoishruthiravi

shruthiravi IF-Sizzlerz
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Posted: 06 May 2015 at 3:44am | IP Logged
@seedibaat thank you for beautifully explaining another aspect of MB. Yes I agree to you that there were different accepted way of getting a heir which had to be used in the absence of a legal heir. I told right my feminist mind's rant on the bali part. I actually hate the word bali and don't believe you get anything by doing bali. Bali also has to be free will if it has to yield result for the dharma not the forced one like the Garuds are telling.  Yes I will come to the responsibility of Prakriti or woman for getting love and respect. If you look at my first post in this thread ( Thanks to you for driving my thoughts in this direction of Triveni Sangamam connected with Knowledge, Power and wealth) I have covered the messages in the birth of Krishna and his message in the Kurushetra war. That is only one part of it.
 
I have said there that I am waiting for some data point which hopefully I will get this week or next week to cover the aspects you told Satyavati's hunger for power for her children, and why the other woman also suffered. And how this also has contributed to the war. No I don't hold man alone for any catastrophe, woman also are responsible, I would say more responsible.
 
And you are right if you look at MB not only IVF, even cloning should have been known to them. Otherwise how did Kunti get sons from demi gods. And even if you look to attain special powers people had to do lot of penance. In other words it also tells knowledge is power, because it is the knowledge that finally eludes Karna at the most opportune moment due to the past curse. Yes MB has lot of life lessons and if understand it correctly it is always a guide for a better life. Every time you read it, you get new perspective. Every time you discuss it some new knowledge emerge. But the sad part is that it is still treated a religious book only.
 
I don't know whether you have read new age inspirational books like " Secret " or the " Power". If you dig deeper whatever said in those books it was said in MB 5000 years back.
 
I write passionately about MB is because it was my inspiration to fight against many patriachial rules from childhood. It was my source to question many of the norms that people trying to impose on me because I was a girl. It's still the source of my knowledge whenever I have to debate with anyone on the rights and choices of woman. And of course the relation of Arjuna and Krishna that of friends that has always given inspiration to me to walk the path of my conscience. Treat God as your friend the way Arjuna trusted Krishna. He will come for you when you need him the most. I am putting this thoughts in the forum because I want other people also to get the inspiration, positivity, fighting spirit etc... from the learnings in that book which I got and also want to get new persepctives from readers like you, Shymaladi, Meena, Shanti, Arshics are all providing.


Edited by shruthiravi - 06 May 2015 at 6:17am

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seedhibaatmishtidoi

jayaks02 IF-Dazzler
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Posted: 06 May 2015 at 5:14am | IP Logged
Originally posted by seedhibaat

Shruti , I love how passionately you write about Mahabharat.Smile
You have mentioned about the Bali and how a woman are easy target. In regards to Mahabharat
i have a different angle to it. Satyavati's adamance led to a real Kuruvanshi' Devavrat' to turn to Bhishma. He is the last legitimate Kuru DNA in him who fought the war for a KURU throne. ideally Kuru Vansh stops at Devavrat. 

When Amba refused to marry Vichitravirya she was allowed to leave. She took revenge later. 

Dhritarashtra and Pandu are called KURU Vanshi only because of their mothers. NO kuru DNA in them. They are not known by their father's Vansh who is Vyas Muni. It makes me think sperm donation was a legal way of having progeny and was a accepted way which a Royal family sitting on throne used. Rajmata Satyavati could propose this.  

Kunti too has 4 sons from different /deities /fathers and still three of them are Accepted as Kuru. So is true for Madri sons. It makes me think there was a definite rules /laws for how to get a heir to the throne.  If all those ladies are from different Royal families I am sure they are aware of their rights, So I wont be calling them' bali ' . 

All the so called Kuru in Kurukshetra except Bhishma are not real Kuru . Bali of all those ladies is not something I have in mind. And if we think of your theory then because of ambition of some ladies led to a war which took lot of Bali. 
I will call it Neeyati, All so called Kuru vanshi born after Devavrat were male child. (except Dushhala)Smile( I guess Vyas Muni didnt bother messing with women after this.) 
I would go ahead and say there was enough knowledge of IVF too. If 100 kaurav are born it is possible to have many  successful IVFs and surrogate mothers. There is a mention that Kauravs are born from Ghrutkumbh (pot of  Ghee) which could be something resembling a test tube. Since lot of references are lost, currently  there are no concrete evidence.

Of couse this is my interpretation of events. I decided to put it here as I can see you have an avid interest in Mahabharat.Smile

Its such a shame all the knowledge is lost over the period. Angry


Brilliant !!! I thought I know Maha Bharat LOL - There is so much to it. I loved this angle.
 
Lots of humour too. Vyas Muni is one hell of a man LOLWink

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seedhibaat

mishtidoi IF-Dazzler
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Posted: 06 May 2015 at 8:57pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by seedhibaat

Shruti , I love how passionately you write about Mahabharat.Smile
You have mentioned about the Bali and how a woman are easy target. In regards to Mahabharat
i have a different angle to it. Satyavati's adamance led to a real Kuruvanshi' Devavrat' to turn to Bhishma. He is the last legitimate Kuru DNA in him who fought the war for a KURU throne. ideally Kuru Vansh stops at Devavrat. 

When Amba refused to marry Vichitravirya she was allowed to leave. She took revenge later. 

Dhritarashtra and Pandu are called KURU Vanshi only because of their mothers. NO kuru DNA in them. They are not known by their father's Vansh who is Vyas Muni. It makes me think sperm donation was a legal way of having progeny and was a accepted way which a Royal family sitting on throne used. Rajmata Satyavati could propose this.  

Kunti too has 4 sons from different /deities /fathers and still three of them are Accepted as Kuru. So is true for Madri sons. It makes me think there was a definite rules /laws for how to get a heir to the throne.  If all those ladies are from different Royal families I am sure they are aware of their rights, So I wont be calling them' bali ' . 

All the so called Kuru in Kurukshetra except Bhishma are not real Kuru . Bali of all those ladies is not something I have in mind. And if we think of your theory then because of ambition of some ladies led to a war which took lot of Bali. 
I will call it Neeyati, All so called Kuru vanshi born after Devavrat were male child. (except Dushhala)Smile( I guess Vyas Muni didnt bother messing with women after this.) 
I would go ahead and say there was enough knowledge of IVF too. If 100 kaurav are born it is possible to have many  successful IVFs and surrogate mothers. There is a mention that Kauravs are born from Ghrutkumbh (pot of  Ghee) which could be something resembling a test tube. Since lot of references are lost, currently  there are no concrete evidence.

Of couse this is my interpretation of events. I decided to put it here as I can see you have an avid interest in Mahabharat.Smile

Its such a shame all the knowledge is lost over the period. Angry



So true, genetically Devavrata was true blue blood Kuru alive for the longest of time without an heir.
Then there is this aspect, Ganga married Shantanu...she's now Kuruvanshi...as is the norm women are known by their husband's lineage after marriage...so, this norm must have been the basis of children born off Vyas...there was no marriage there, and women conceived with consent of Rajmata or later Kunti and Madri with consent of Pandu. 

SO, two things "ritual of marriage" and consent of husband or head of the family in former's absence established  legitimacy of the child born in the society.
Sadly Karna lacked both these aspects. 

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