B R Chopra portrayal of Karna with reference to KMG - Page 5

Originally posted by: Surya_krsnbhakt

@Semanti

Could you explain the deer story?

Sure dear, here it is from KMG:

Vaisampayana said, "Once on a time, as Yudhishthira lay down at night in the Dwaita woods, some deer, with accents choked in tears, presented themselves before him in his dreams. To them standing with joined hands, their bodies trembling all over that foremost of monarchs said, 'Tell me what ye wish to say. Who are ye? And what do ye desire?' Thus accosted by Kunti's son--the illustrious Pandava, those deer, the remnant of those that had been slaughtered, replied unto him, saying, 'We are, O Bharata, those deer that are still alive after them that had been slaughtered. We shall be exterminated totally. Therefore, do thou change thy residence. O mighty king, all thy brothers are heroes, conversant with weapons; they have thinned the ranks of the rangers of the forest. We few--the remnants,--O mighty-minded one, remain like seed. By thy favour, O king of kings, let us increase.' Seeing these deer, which remained like seed after the rest had been destroyed trembling and afflicted with fear, Yudhishthira the just was greatly affected with grief. And the king, intent on the welfare of all creatures, said unto them, 'So be it. I
shall act as ye have said.' Awaking after such a vision, that excellent king, moved by pity towards the deer, thus spake unto his brothers assembled there, 'Those deer that are alive after them that have been slaughtered, accosted me at night, after I had awakened, saying, 'We remain like the cues of our lines. Blest be thou! Do thou have compassion on us.' And they have spoken truly. We ought to feel pity for the dwellers of the forest. We have been feeding on them for a year together and eight months. Let us, therefore, again (repair) to the romantic Kamyakas, that best of forests abounding in wild animals, situated at the head of the desert, near lake Trinavindu. And there let us pleasantly pass the rest of our time.'
Edited by Urmila11 - 9 years ago

Originally posted by: Urmila11

@ smrth:

Karna could be friend of Kauravas even before joining Gurukul so he could be party to Bheem given poison nothing contradicting in it. Adhirath was sarathi of Hastinapur and also friend of Dhritarashtra and hence Karna's friendship with Duryodhan (or at least introduction) before Gurukul of Drona is logically acceptable and surely no way contradicting.

Here is a citation from KMG:

"And the Kurus beholding the Pandavas gifted with physical strength, energy, and power of mind, popular also with the citizens, and blessed with good fortune, became very jealous. Then the crooked minded Duryodhana, and Karna, with (the former's uncle) the son of Suvala began to persecute them and devise means for their exit..The wicked son of Dhritarashtra gave poison to Bhima, but Bhima of the stomach of the wolf digested the poison with the food. Then the wretch again tied the sleeping Bhima on the margin of the Ganges and, casting him into the water, went away. "

personally i dont think this citation proves that Duryodhan and karna knew each other from before the gurukul

Becuase this citation is a part of much larger citation when vaisampayana is basically explaining to janamejaya the reason for the disunion between kauarvas and panadavs due to which panadavs go into exile after the dice game

so he is basically just mentioning all the wrongs committed towards panadvas by kauaravs with no time line mentioned.Infact after this citation he directly jumps to house of lac incident does that mean house of lac also took place before gurukul?

Let me post the complete citation

"Hear, O monarch, why that disunion occurred between the Kurus and the Pandavas, and why also that exile into the woods immediately proceeding from the game at dice prompted by the desire (of the Kurus) for rule. I shall relate all to thee who askest it thou best of the Bharata race!

Here vaisampayan is mentioning that he will tell all incidents that occurred between kauaras and panadavs

On the death of their father those heroes (the Pandavas) came to their own home. And within a short time they became well-versed in archery. And the Kurus beholding the Pandavas gifted with physical strength, energy, and power of mind, popular also with the citizens, and blessed with good fortune, became very jealous. Then the crookedminded Duryodhana, and Karna, with (the former's uncle) the son of Suvala began to persecute them and devise means for their exile

the first bold line clearly states that panadavs become well versed in archery this could very well be the gurukul where they learnt archery.After that comes the citation that beholding their prowess dury and karna and shakuni start forming plans

Then comes the poisoning incident in which karna is not mentioned any where

Then the wicked Duryodhana, guided by the counsels of Sakuni (his maternal uncle), persecuted the Pandavas in various ways for the acquirement of undisputed sovereignty. The wicked son of Dhritarashtra gave poison to Bhima, but Bhima of the stomach of the wolf digested the poison with the food. Then the wretch again tied the sleeping Bhima on the margin of the Ganges and, casting him into the water, went away. But when Bhimasena of strong arms, the son of Kunti woke, he tore the strings with which he had been tied and came up, his pains all gone. And while asleep and in the water black snakesof virulent poison bit him in every part of his body. But that slayer of foes did not still perish. And in all those persecutions of the Pandavas by their cousins, the Kurus, the high-minded Vidura attentively engaged himself neutralising those evil designs and rescuing the persecuted ones. And as Sakra from the heavens keeps in happiness the world of men, so did Vidura always keep the Pandavas from evil.

Another thing to notice is that its clearly mentioned that Bhima digests the poison so this is not the childhood vasuki incident since bhima digests the poison in food and also that of snakesafter this vaisampayan directly jumps to house of lac incident

When Duryodhana, with various means, both secret and open, found himself incapable of destroying the Pandavas who were protected by the fates and kept alive for grave future purposes (such as the extermination of the Kuru race), then called together his counsellors consisting of Vrisha (Karna), Duhsasana and others, and with the knowledge of Dhritarashtra caused a house of lac to be constructed. And king Dhritarashtra, from affection for his children, and prompted by the desire of sovereignty, sent the Pandavas tactfully into Varanavata. And the Pandavas then went away with their mother from Hastinapura. And when they were leaving the city, Vidura gave them some idea of impending danger and how they could come out of it.

then he proceeds to tell the entire story from birth of gatotkacha to khandavprasth to arjuna's exile to dice game

so here he is basically telling the history of pandavas with no reference to what happened when

Originally posted by: Urmila11

@ smrth:

Karna could be friend of Kauravas even before joining Gurukul so he could be party to Bheem given poison nothing contradicting in it. Adhirath was sarathi of Hastinapur and also friend of Dhritarashtra and hence Karna's friendship with Duryodhan (or at least introduction) before Gurukul of Drona is logically acceptable and surely no way contradicting.

Here is a citation from KMG:

"And the Kurus beholding the Pandavas gifted with physical strength, energy, and power of mind, popular also with the citizens, and blessed with good fortune, became very jealous. Then the crooked minded Duryodhana, and Karna, with (the former's uncle) the son of Suvala began to persecute them and devise means for their exit..The wicked son of Dhritarashtra gave poison to Bhima, but Bhima of the stomach of the wolf digested the poison with the food. Then the wretch again tied the sleeping Bhima on the margin of the Ganges and, casting him into the water, went away. "

Edited by smrth - 9 years ago

Originally posted by: Urmila11

@ smrth:

Shivang dadabhai (the TM) read your post on the first day and was very very happy to see your acknowledgement and wanted to reply you along with his reply to Janaki, Surya and Amrita. But on that day, he couldn't reply since page were taking time in loading and his connectivity was poor and it was very late night. He met me on FB messenger from his phone and told me this that his connectivity is still very poor on laptop so I should convey his thanks and regards to you since he may not be able to login this week.

And thanks from my side for your comments here 😊

Edited by smrth - 9 years ago

Posting my reply since the topic on Mahabharata forum was closed due to the ignorance of rules by the TM.


No.4th - The incident itself does not mention Karna's name, below is the citation. ( Additional points mentioned at the bottom )

"...And the wicked and unrighteous Duryodhana, through ignorance and ambition, prepared himself for an act of sin. He thought, 'There is no other individual who can compare with Bhima, the second son of Pandu, in point of prowess. I shall have to destroy him by artifice. Singly, Bhima dares a century of us to the combat. Therefore, when he shall sleep in the garden, I shall throw him into the current of the Ganga. Afterwards, confining his eldest brother Yudhishthira and his younger brother Arjuna, I shall reign sole king without molestation.' Determined thus, the wicked Duryodhana was ever on the watch to find out an opportunity for injuring Bhima. And, O Bharata, at length at a beautiful place called Pramanakoti on the banks of the Ganga, he built a palace decorated with hangings of broad-cloth and other rich stuffs. And he built this palace for sporting in the water there, and filled it with all kinds of entertaining things and choice viands. Gay flags waved on the top of this mansion..."

Incident is always taken as a precedence over any singular line.

No.9 - Karna defeated Jarasandha and hence Jarasandha gave him a kingdom.

No.12 - Duryodhana cired out and said that he will kill himself if Pandavas ever come back and hence Karna, to comfort his friend, advised him to kill them in the forest.

No.13 - He fought alone, Pandavas were 4 in number, I hope you dont  consider Vikarna as strong as Bhima and the other two, Arjuna was Chitrasena's student and hence Chitrasena left Duryodhana, infact Arjuna did not defeat Chitrasena, nowhere it is written, the fight was stopped.

No.19 - Krishna called Karna to be the foremost of heroes, he called him superior to Arjuna.

No.14 - Bhishma and people too many a times insulted him, Bhishma & karna's last conversation clears this air.

No. 21 - I just cant describe how kiddo this point is, everyone boasted about his prowess, and second of all, Karna did that to assure Duryodhana.

No.22- citations?

No. 23 - Bhishma insulted him to a point that Karna opted the war out, Bhishma admits that it was his plan to insult Karna and keep him away.

No.24 -  False, Karna made Arjuna unconscious when he got down from the chariot, he asked Arjuna to let him remove his wheel but Arjuna declined and hence the latter was made unconscious by Karna.

"...That shaft of keen point and endued with the effulgence of Sakra's thunder, sped from Karna's arms, fell upon Dhananjaya's chest and penetrated it like a mighty snake penetrating an ant-hill. That grinder of foes, viz., the high-souled Vibhatsu, thus deeply pierced in that encounter, began to reel. His grasp became loosened, at which his bow Gandiva dropped from his hand. He trembled like the prince of mountains in an earthquake. Availing himself of that opportunity, the mighty car-warrior Vrisha, desirous of extricating his car-wheel that had been swallowed up by the earth, jumped down from his vehicle..."

Note that Karna tried to take out his chariot wheel thrice, first immediately after his wheel was sunk, second after he baffled Arjuna's Brahmastra and thrid when he made Arjuna unconscious

Karna was trying to take out the chariot wheel from both of the hands, can you tell me if Karna had a third hand in which he was holding a weapon. Karna was not holding a weapon and was facing backwards.

No.4 continued -  Karna did meet Duryodhana at the gurukul, he was not at all involved in the Bhim's poisoining incident

"...Then the wicked Duryodhana, guided by the counsels of Sakuni (his maternal uncle), persecuted the Pandavas in various ways for the acquirement of undisputed sovereignty. The wicked son of Dhritarashtra gave poison to Bhima, but Bhima of the stomach of the wolf digested the poison with the food..."

There is no mention of Karna in the above citation, It was Duryodhan's own idea. The incident always takes a precdence over any singular line, and the incident does not mention Karna.
Edited by TheWatcher - 9 years ago

Infact karna and dury being friends from gurukul is itself contradictory with the rangbhooomi incident.I am not saying they hadn't met perhaps dury and karna did met during gurukul but saying they were friends is an assumptions since its in complete contradiction with what happens in ranghbhoomi


When karna enters every one in the assembly wonder's who he is .If he was friends with dury since childhood wouldn't they already know who karna is

Infact Karna asks dury for his friendship (if they were already friends why would he ask for his friendship) then after that dury asks for his friendship which doenst make sense if they were already friends.So this is actually a contradiction we cant be sure either ways

Kama replied, 'When thou hast said it, I regard it as already accomplished. I only long for thy friendship. And, O lord, my wish is even for a single combat with Arjuna.' Duryodhana said, 'Do thou with me enjoy the good things of life! Be thou the benefactor of thy friend, and, O represser of enemies, place thou thy feet on the heads of all foes."

And Suyodhana said unto him, 'I eagerly wish for thy friendship.' Thus spoken to, Karna replied, 'Be it so.' And they embraced each other in joy, and experienced great happiness

why will they be eager to be friends if they were already friends .

So my understanding if i take both citations into account not just one is that karna and dury may have met in gurukul and karna may have had some kind of altercation with arjuna but neither of the associations were long or strong enough to be termed as friendship or enmity.This would explain both the citations

Originally posted by: TheWatcher

No.24 -  False, Karna made Arjuna unconscious when he got down from the chariot, he asked Arjuna to let him remove his wheel but Arjuna declined and hence the latter was made unconscious by Karna.

"...That shaft of keen point and endued with the effulgence of Sakra's thunder, sped from Karna's arms, fell upon Dhananjaya's chest and penetrated it like a mighty snake penetrating an ant-hill. That grinder of foes, viz., the high-souled Vibhatsu, thus deeply pierced in that encounter, began to reel. His grasp became loosened, at which his bow Gandiva dropped from his hand. He trembled like the prince of mountains in an earthquake. Availing himself of that opportunity, the mighty car-warrior Vrisha, desirous of extricating his car-wheel that had been swallowed up by the earth, jumped down from his vehicle..."

Note that Karna tried to take out his chariot wheel thrice, first immediately after his wheel was sunk, second after he baffled Arjuna's Brahmastra and thrid when he made Arjuna unconscious

Karna was trying to take out the chariot wheel from both of the hands, can you tell me if Karna had a third hand in which he was holding a weapon. Karna was not holding a weapon and was facing backwards.

not only this but killing karna when he is weaponless was already planned by krishna ji

after gatotkacha's death only krishna ji tells arjuna that when karna will be taking out his chariot whee he will give a sign to arjuna and that is when arjuna should kill karna since karna is incapable of being slain as long as he has weapon in his hands

O son of Pandu, and divested also of the dart given him by Vasava, Karna is now like a man (and no longer like a god). There win occur one opportunity for his slaughter. When his car-wheels will sink in the earth, availing thyself of that opportunity, thou shouldst slay him in that distressful situation. I will make thee a sign beforehand. Warned by it, thou shouldst act. The vanquisher of Vala himself, that foremost of heroes, wielding his thunder, is incapable of slaying the invincible Karna while the latter stands weapon in hand Edited by Sabhayata - 9 years ago

Originally posted by: Urmila11

@ smrth:

Karna could be friend of Kauravas even before joining Gurukul so he could be party to Bheem given poison nothing contradicting in it. Adhirath was sarathi of Hastinapur and also friend of Dhritarashtra and hence Karna's friendship with Duryodhan (or at least introduction) before Gurukul of Drona is logically acceptable and surely no way contradicting.

Here is a citation from KMG:

"And the Kurus beholding the Pandavas gifted with physical strength, energy, and power of mind, popular also with the citizens, and blessed with good fortune, became very jealous. Then the crooked minded Duryodhana, and Karna, with (the former's uncle) the son of Suvala began to persecute them and devise means for their exit..The wicked son of Dhritarashtra gave poison to Bhima, but Bhima of the stomach of the wolf digested the poison with the food. Then the wretch again tied the sleeping Bhima on the margin of the Ganges and, casting him into the water, went away. "

Shivang dadabhai (the TM) read your post on the first day and was very very happy to see your acknowledgement and wanted to reply you along with his reply to Janaki, Surya and Amrita. But on that day, he couldn't reply since page were taking time in loading and his connectivity was poor and it was very late night. He met me on FB messenger from his phone and told me this that his connectivity is still very poor on laptop so I should convey his thanks and regards to you since he may not be able to login this week.

And thanks from my side for your comments here 😊

Originally posted by: Medha.S

The citations from the gurukul do not say they meet for the first time in gurukul -- do they? So how come Karna's involvement in Bheems poisoning contradicts Karna becoming a student of gurukul? Were princes refrained from hanging out with the sons of the charioteers that worked for their family?

citation posted by urmila in no way proves that dury and karna were friends before gurukul
.read the complete citation and you will understand why.in any case posted it here below


Becuase this citation is a part of much larger citation when vaisampayana is basically explaining to janamejaya the reason for the disunion between kauarvas and panadavs due to which panadavs go into exile after the dice game

so he is basically just mentioning all the wrongs committed towards panadvas by kauaravs with no time line mentioned.Infact after this citation he directly jumps to house of lac incident does that mean house of lac also took place before gurukul?

Let me post the complete citation

"Hear, O monarch, why that disunion occurred between the Kurus and the Pandavas, and why also that exile into the woods immediately proceeding from the game at dice prompted by the desire (of the Kurus) for rule. I shall relate all to thee who askest it thou best of the Bharata race!

Here vaisampayan is mentioning that he will tell all incidents that occurred between kauaras and panadavs

On the death of their father those heroes (the Pandavas) came to their own home. And within a short time they became well-versed in archery. And the Kurus beholding the Pandavas gifted with physical strength, energy, and power of mind, popular also with the citizens, and blessed with good fortune, became very jealous. Then the crookedminded Duryodhana, and Karna, with (the former's uncle) the son of Suvala began to persecute them and devise means for their exile

the first bold line clearly states that panadavs become well versed in archery this could very well be the gurukul where they learnt archery.After that comes the citation that beholding their prowess dury and karna and shakuni start forming plans

Then comes the poisoning incident in which karna is not mentioned any where

Then the wicked Duryodhana, guided by the counsels of Sakuni (his maternal uncle), persecuted the Pandavas in various ways for the acquirement of undisputed sovereignty. The wicked son of Dhritarashtra gave poison to Bhima, but Bhima of the stomach of the wolf digested the poison with the food. Then the wretch again tied the sleeping Bhima on the margin of the Ganges and, casting him into the water, went away. But when Bhimasena of strong arms, the son of Kunti woke, he tore the strings with which he had been tied and came up, his pains all gone. And while asleep and in the water black snakesof virulent poison bit him in every part of his body. But that slayer of foes did not still perish. And in all those persecutions of the Pandavas by their cousins, the Kurus, the high-minded Vidura attentively engaged himself neutralising those evil designs and rescuing the persecuted ones. And as Sakra from the heavens keeps in happiness the world of men, so did Vidura always keep the Pandavas from evil.

Another thing to notice is that its clearly mentioned that Bhima digests the poison so this is not the childhood vasuki incident since bhima digests the poison in food and also that of snakesafter this vaisampayan directly jumps to house of lac incident

When Duryodhana, with various means, both secret and open, found himself incapable of destroying the Pandavas who were protected by the fates and kept alive for grave future purposes (such as the extermination of the Kuru race), then called together his counsellors consisting of Vrisha (Karna), Duhsasana and others, and with the knowledge of Dhritarashtra caused a house of lac to be constructed. And king Dhritarashtra, from affection for his children, and prompted by the desire of sovereignty, sent the Pandavas tactfully into Varanavata. And the Pandavas then went away with their mother from Hastinapura. And when they were leaving the city, Vidura gave them some idea of impending danger and how they could come out of it.

then he proceeds to tell the entire story from birth of gatotkacha to khandavprasth to arjuna's exile to dice game

so here he is basically telling the history of pandavas with no reference to what happened when

Edited by Sabhayata - 9 years ago

Yeah -- but the citation from Karna parva is the citation which proves that Karna was friends or at least some kind of ally not of equal status pre-gurukul.