Mythological Masti

Why did Vasudev and Devaki keep having children? - Page 2

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chirpy_life19 thumbnail
Posted: 10 years ago
Originally posted by: lola610

@ Cherry - glad it helped, dear :) Yes indeed, when God gives us problems he also gives us the strength to face them and that's what happened with Vasudevji and Mata Devaki. However, from your last sentence I still don't think we're entirely on the same page. You say that the spiritual growth he experienced through these hardships made him aware of his dharma as a father by the time Krishna came as his child; I say both of them had no more scope for that kind of growth - their preexisting spiritual maturity led them to be God's chosen ones during so many lifetimes, and gave them the strength to do whatever He needed them to do in order to bring about his incarnation. You gave that quote of the Bhagavat from right after their wedding as evidence that Vasudevji was still naive and doubtful of the prophecy; I would ask you to check out the just a few verses later when Kans returns the firstborn - Kirtimaan - on account of Vasudev's truthfulness. The state of his heart is described in detail - he takes his child to that sinner with a heavy heart as expected, so it's not as if he's so detached that he isn't tormented by paternal affection and the pain it causes. But his intentions are described as follows:


ki dusaha nu sdhn
vidu kim apekitam
kim akrya kadary
dustyaja ki dhttmanm

What is painful for saintly persons who strictly adhere to the truth? How could there not be independence for pure devotees who know the Supreme Lord as the substance? What deeds are forbidden for persons of the lowest character? And what cannot be given up for the sake of Lord Ka by those who have fully surrendered at His lotus feet?

So just as I said in my previous post - he did not have children and surrender them to God's will out of any lack of understanding of his dharma as a father, nor did he take Krishna to safety out of some sudden realization of it. He was ALREADY as enlightened and realized as it gets; that is why he had the strength to give up whatever Shri Krishna needed him to give up in order to ensure the conditions for his avataar. Even this pre-elevated status is confirmed in the Bhagavat:

nanddy ye vraje gop
y cm ca yoita
vayo vasudevdy
devaky-dy yadu-striya

The inhabitants of Vndvana, headed by Nanda Mahrja and including his associate cowherd men and their wives, were none but denizens of the heavenly planets, O Mahrja Parkit, best of the descendants of Bharata, and so too were the descendants of the Vi dynasty, headed by Vasudeva and Devak and the other women of the dynasty of Yadu. The friends, relatives and well-wishers of both Nanda Mahrja and Vasudeva and even those who externally appeared to be followers of Kasa were all demigods.

These were no ordinary mortals. These were literally angels from heaven who came to help God in his earthly mission, setting examples with their behavior and setting the stage as needed. This makes the comparison with Ganga Maa and Mahadev all the more valid - that their actions cannot be judged and rated by the same yardstick as human behavior. They are way above and beyond.


Lola,thank you so much for sparing your valuable time to make these knowledgeable posts!🤗

Why God has given such difficulties to Devaki & Vasudev!? 😭Why they had to face such torture in the hands of wicked?Though all this was to bring the God's incarnation down,I wish they remained happy like Yashoda & Nand!

Why this bias!?😕Why this suffering for those who greatly contributed for the divine to incarnate?
RamKiSeeta thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
My question is how and when Kirtimaan was named. Wasn't he killed right after birth? I doubt VD named him because back in those days, priests named the children through a naamkaran.
_gReenheaRt_ thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago

@ Cherry

God does not make one suffer for no reason nor does He make one happy for no reason. God is fair and gives you exactly what you deserve.Karma phal(Fruits of Action) is not punishment or reward but simply a consequence of one's own actions. Although it may often appear like a punishment or reward, the purpose of Karma is to perfectly follow the cosmic law (God's system of Universal operation). The result is out depending on one's own actions beit favourable or unfavourable. It is the law of action and reaction that brings the fruits. No one should be blamed.
God is neither partial nor unjust.You suffer on account of your own actions.Things do not happen in this universe by accident or chance in a disorderly manner. They happen in regular succession and events follow each other in a regular order. There is a definite connection between what is being done now by you and what will happen to you in the future.
Cosmic law is an absolute and the most perfect law of the universe. God is neither Random nor Biased. God neither gives you anything nor will he take away anything from you. Technically, God doesn't care,until you call him. Everything must follow the 'Cosmic Law' or 'Law of Nature' or 'Law of Karma'.God is pure and ocean of bliss!Those who seek peace and bliss go to him and make efforts again and again to reach him.

Devotee is like a child that is learning to take her first steps and the mother calling her towards her is God. Mother is full of joy when the baby takes her first steps and falls. Mother is ready to help but she will not help. She is ready to protect when the need arises. She is behind you all the times and will be there when needed but most of the times she will just be a joyful observer encouraging you to walk more.That is the relationship between the Devotee (child) who is taking her first steps towards the God (mother).Mother does not care if its a perfect step or not. She just wants you to take the steps.She is full of joy when you lift your feet with effort to go towards her. Its about intention - right or wrong does not matter. Perfection will come as efforts succeed.Mother always wants you to learn.

Those who learn and follow the cosmic law will attain him even without even knowing him because God and his law are no different from each other.


Edited by SRUJAconscience - 10 years ago
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Posted: 10 years ago

If you take an individual life as an isolated event which begins with birth of the physical body and terminates with its death you cannot find any correct explanation or solution for the affairs of life. You will be groping in darkness and despair. Your present life is nothing, when compared with the whole soul-life. It is momentary - a mere fragment. If you want to find the cause or antecedent for anything, you will have to go deep into the affairs of the eternal soul-life. Then alone there will be perfect balance of cause and effect, antecedent and consequence. Life does not end with the disintegration of this physical body alone. There is rebirth. There had been countless previous lives also. You will have to take into consideration the widest view of the life of the soul. Then you will find a perfect, satisfactory solution for all the intricate and complicated affairs of life.

In case of Devaki and Vasudev few narrations related to their previous births are available.

1) Although Shri Ram was never angry with Kaikeyi Maa for exiling him, Kaikeyi Maa still separated mother and son (Kaushalya and Ram) and Dasharath(Vasudev) was also involved in banishment of Rama and sorrow of Kaushalya(he treated her low than Kaikeyi's Servants according to Valmiki Ramayan),so they had to suffer the fruits of their Karma.So She had to wait an entire yug for her deliverance, when in the eternal cycle of rebirth, she was born again as Devaki, Krsna's birth mother, and had to live without her son till he came of age.Also her 6 newborns were killed before her,she lost Balram and she had to be separated from her son Shri Krishna for 14 years, while Yashoda Devi, who was Mata Kaushalya, raised Shri Krishna as her son.And Mata Sumithra/Mata Rohini who had great affection for Lakshman begot him again as her son(Balaram).
When Shri Ram was leaving for his 14-year exile, Mata Kaushalya was offering Him some milk to drink, but Mata Kaikayee did not allow give him time to drink that milk. But when Mata Kaikayee had repented and wanted to get Prabhu from her own womb, she was granted that wish. BUT, as people have to suffer their "Karma" and even Vidhaata cannot change that,and since she did deprive Prabhu from that milk, He did not accept any breast milk from Mata Kaikayee/Mata Devaki, but went to Mata Yashoda/Mata Kaushalya and grew up in her lap.

2) Devi Bhagavata Purana answers why Devaki had to deliver six infant boys in a succession just to be killed by Kamsa till the seventh and the eighth were spared.
Maharshi Veda Vyasa  provided replies on several queries of King Janamejaya as  linked with Sanchita Karma'. As an illustration, he narrated the incident of the birth of seven infants before the eighth issue of Lord Krishna and why Aditi was born as Devaki  in the next birth.
Indra the King of Devas was born to Aditi; and Diti too desired to give birth to a son as powerful as Indra. Kasyapa advised Diti to perform a religious ritual with great piety and purity. As Diti too was conceived and the boy was nearing the delivery, Aditi got perturbed with envy. She asked her son Indra to somehow terminate the delivery. Indra pretended affection to Diti and when she fell fast asleep,  entered by his mystic power the pregnant area and used his thunderbolt (Vajra Weapon) by splitting her womb into seven parts which were cut into seven further parts totalling forty nine parts.These forty nine parts were delivered and became Aswini Kumars, the powerful and virtuous Devas. The seven parts of the foetus were born as Devaki's infant boys, six of them having been killed by Kamsa as soon as born and the seventh one flew away in the process of killing as Yoga Maya'. Of course the eighth child was carried to Gokula as that of Nanda and Yasoda and thus emerged the Krishna Avatar. Diti learnt how the envy of Aditi was responsible for the miscarriage and cursed Aditi that she too be punished as Devaki in her next birth experiencing the pangs of losing seven infants in a row.

Even desires bring sufferings.Vasudev went for an alliance with Devaki because his wife, Rohini, had remained childless.He had a great desire for children.He even broke the Loyalty he promised to Rohini infront of Agni,who is symbol of truth and purity,Marriage Deities and other elders during their Wedding.

Man can have a free will , only when he is free(one with god,merged in pure conscience). What we call normally a free will is only an illusory entity. The delusion that we have a free will is the product of Maya.Every experience an individual experiences in his life is a result of his actions (either in the past or present life).Karma phala waiting for fructification is Sanchita Karma and those that have fructified for the present birth is known as Prarabhdha Karma. Those that are earned in the present birth is known as Agami Karma (and may fructify either in the present birth or in the future births).

"Under the influence of false ego, one thinks oneself to be the doer of activities, while in reality all the activities are carried out by nature." Bhagwad Gita 3:27

"Not by non-peerformance of actions does a man attain actionlessness; nor by mere renunciation does he attain perfection" Bhagwad Gita 3:4

The truth, according to Hinduism, is that our free will is subject to the influence of our samskaras, which are the mental impressions caused by our past karmas.

Devaki giving birth to those 6 cursed souls,those 6 infants meeting death in the hands of Kamsa,Balram's transfer to Rohini's womb,Krishna's birth in prison and Yashoda & Nand raising Krishna,Kamsa's death coz of Krishna...all these were destined to happen.There is no room for if,but and then...Here Kamsa,Vasudev,Devaki,Rohini,yashoda,Nand all of them were just like puppets,all the tasks were accomplished by God.And the reason behind chosing them for their respective roles is based on their Karma phal.

Maya...

Adi Sankara ecstatically exclaimed:"Alas! What a wonderful thing this veiling power is! It can even destroy the wisdom of a learned and wise man! One may be intelligent and wise, a scholar, very clever, and also adept in the vision of the exceedingly subtle Atman. In spite of these high qualifications, even a little breeze of this concealing power can destroy everything."
Without a really deep, deep enlightenment, we succumb to Maya, the illusion.

In Yoga Vashishtya(Conversation between Shri Ram and Sage Vashishta)

Sage Vashishta said "The truth seeker will ever try to attain the true vision of the Atma. The Jnani always tries to rest in wisdom.Desire for worldly things or possessions are mere Maya (illusion).These Jnanis (truth seekers) who have risen above Maya (illusion) will never sink into it again."

According to Srimad-Bhagavatam...

Canto-10.3

ajua-grmya-viayv
anapatyau ca dam-pat
na vavrthe 'pavarga me
mohitau deva-myay

Translation : 

The Supreme Lord said "Being Man and Wife but always sonless, you were attracted by sexual desires, for by the influence of devamaya, transcendental love, you wanted to have Me as your son. Therefore you never desired to be liberated from this material world."

Purport : 

If one wants to reach God one must be free from all material desires. Therefore, instead  of desiring to have the Lord come here and become one's son, one should desire to become free from all material desires.

Why all these Karma phal and sufferings even for great devotees?

Suffering will come to all, either devotee or non-devotee based on their Karma. A devotee always remains in the thought of God,realizing that this reaction is due to some past ignorant misdeed. This enlighenment actually reduces the suffering, because the devotee surrenders it up to God without false ego.Suffering also is an illusion.The more one is absorbed in God, the more one's suffering is nullified and happiness and bliss increase.

The best example of a devotee's attitude toward suffering is in the character of Queen Kunti. "Let these calamities come again and again, that we may remember You again and again, for by remembering You we no longer meet with repeated birth and death."

MagadhSundari thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
@ Shani - what you read about Kans promising to spare the 8th child if the others were surrendered to him is actually backwards, since it was the 8th who was prohpesied to be his killer. As Cherry mentioned, Kans implied (not promised) that he would spare the first 7 after Vasudev surrendered his first born in accordance with the promise he made to save his wife's life. Because Narad didn't want Kans's momentary mercy to interrupt or delay God's plans to take birth, he convinced Kans to consider all the children a possible threat and change his mind.
 
@ Janu - there are no details on when and how Kirtimaan was named in the Bhagavat, though that is where we find his name. Most oral and literary retellings maintain that the child was not surrendered immediately after birth; the parents spent some time bonding with him before recalling the heartrending duty ahead of him. They usually include an informal naming ritual during that time. In fact, even the next 5 children were not snatched away immediately - there were a few hours in between to account for a guard traveling to Kans's palace on horseback with news of the child's birth, and then Kans's travel time getting to the prison. For better or for worse (IMO for better), televised mythos don't spend screentime on that level of detail.
 
@ Cherry - you're most welcome, dear, glad it's helping 🤗 I had all the EXACT same questions in mind like my early teen years, like 6-7 years ago, to the point where not getting convincing answers about the reasoning behind this cruel fate and what looked like God's partiality was driving me to give up on Sagun bhakti and adopt Nirgun for some time. However from childhood Shri Ram and Shri Krishna had been in my heart along with all the devotees who took part in their leelas, so that didn't last long 😆 I will provide some of the insights and articles that helped me understand in a way that both satisfied my need for answers and continue to inspire me to be a better person, either soon or after I get home from work. My response to you and Sruja are going to be kind of intertwined actually.
 
@ Sruja - thank you for providing all of those backstories from various sources, dear. I was aware had already encountered these versions of VasuDevaki's past (yes that's what I call them, apna to puraana rishta hai lol) during the "quest" phase I mentioned to Cherry above. However, I found them all highly dissatisfactory for a number of reasons.
 
For one, the Dashrath-Kaikeyi as Vasudev-Devaki story has been popularly circulated in recent years but it's not backed in any of the 18 major puraanas so no idea where it came from. Its main logical hole is this - if Dashrath = Vasudev, Kaushalya = Yashoda, and Kaikeyi = Devaki, where the hell is Nand Baba?! The other hole is this: if Mata Devaki "earned" her separation from Shri Krishna as Kaikeyi, then how did Mata Kaushalya earn that separation from Shri Ram? It turns into a messy cycle of who was who in their past life that just keeps confusing us and never ends.
 
The "official" backstories we get for these characters from the older texts are as follows: Prajapati Sutapa and Prishni >> Aditi-Kashyap >> VasuDevaki, the yogi couple Drona and Dharaa >> Nand-Yashoda, and from Skanda Puraan Mr. and Mrs. Raja Ulkamukh >> Dashrath-Kaushalya.
 
I personally am not a text-loyalist, that this source is more official or that one is less so doesn't affect my acceptance of an explanation as long as the explanation itself makes sense to me. My bigger issue with this whole line of reasoning that he/she suffered because he/she did this or that in xyz lifetime is the fact that having the father/mother of the whole universe call you his parents is a HUGE deal. It takes ridiculous amounts of virtue and devotion to earn such a pure, loving relationship with God, and for the same heart to bear that much devotion and worthiness AND the kind of envy and malice associated with Aditi the Devi Bhagavatam story is unfathomable. Devotion is transformative; once it is so much a part of you that God has elevated you to the position of his mother (which she was in that lifetime also, when he took Vaaman avtaar), to fall far enough to wish for someone's child's death is just out of the question. Since God continued to call her mother yet another incarnation after Vaaman and she wasn't "disqualified", I don't buy this Devi Bhagavatam story that maligns her with a disqualification affirming deed.
 
Onto the Bhagavatam verse you quoted - I believe it has been grossly mistranslated. Not that the word by word translation on srimadbhagavatam.org is incorrect, but the full-verse translation underneath that they give often attaches a normative judgment that the translators expand on in their "Purport" section, adding a subjective tone of what was right/wrong/good/bad according to the assumptions of their sampraday. That is the case with this line you quoted, which holds it against the souls embodied as VasuDevaki that they sacrificed their yogic merit and opted for lifetimes worth of grihasta ashram in order to have a vaatasalya driven affectionate relationship with the Lord. They have every right to believe that, but it is inconsistent with their own purports on other devotees (e.g. the gopis) and with one of the main conclusions of the Bhagavatam itself. The whole purpose of the text is to inspire devotion - it is all bhakti yog, all the time. On that basis, it actually celebrates those who valued a tangible, loving relationship with God ( be it vatsalya, madhurya, sakhya, or dasya) above yogic merit and speedy attainment of liberation. The gopis, the most popular example, are described as great rishis who refused liberation and opted to reincarnate as grihasta bound women so that they could enjoy the bond they shared with Krishna and feel every emotion that accompanied it - be it painful or blissful - to the fullest. I have come across a number of Bhagavatam texts both with and without commentary analogous to srimadbhagavatam.com's "purport" section, and my favorites among them have always interpreted this verse about VasuDevaki's acceptance of grihasta ashram in the same way as that of the gopis. That is, there is no negative judgment cast on them for choosing "sensual life" out of desire in the material sense - because what could be better than desiring Krishna, moksh ka bhi tyaag karke unse unhi ko maangna? Isn't that what the Bhagavatam teaches us throughout?
Edited by lola610 - 10 years ago
MagadhSundari thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago

I have edited my post above with everything except my answer to Cherry's question about why God put his devotees through such suffering. As I mentioned above, the answers that lend themselves to a sort of blame game never satisfied me, but this is the one that does: nature itself metes out destiny according to karma, giving people what they deserve - but God gives his devotees their roles in his leela and life experiences according to what he knows they can endure. Only those whom he trusts most will have experiences akin to gold that is put through a crucible. He knows they will handle themselves in such an exemplary way that generations to come will learn from their behavior. It works for me; I know that whenever I have some small problem here and there I remember what VasuDevaki went through to put it into perspective and tell myself that if they didn't complain after going through such major things, I better not complain over this stupid thing. This too shall pass. God even put himself through suffering for the same reason - think of Shri Ram and Mata Sita. Then it makes sense that when his best and brightest bhakts go through the same sort of thing, it's not necessarily because they've been bad - it could just as likely be the opposite, that he considers them so GOOD that he identifies with them and trusts them to respond to hardships like he would, and teach everyone else to do the same.

I had shared the following article in the chat clubs that were the predecessors of this forum, and I think it might help answer Cherry's question even better than I did so here it goes again:
 

How Krishna protects His devotees 

http://vrindavana.wordpress.com/2006/08/25/how-krishna-protects-his-devotees/

krishnaya vasudevaya haraye paramatmane

prantaklesanasaya govindaya namo namah
kaunteya pratijanihi na me bhaktah pranashyati
In Bhagavad gita, Krishna declares to His friend and devotee Arjuna: "Know for certain, o son of Kunti, My devotee will never be destroyed".

Many examples are often given from Vedic literatures, Puranas and Mahabharata, and from the lives of a great number of devotees of Krishna, showing how the Lord is always taking personal care of those who surrender to Him. The story of how the Deity of Sakshi Gopal came to this place is one of the best of this kind, and clearly demonstrates that Krishna is the best friend of His devotee.

However, today we see that in society faith and devotion to the Lord are in decline, and people do not even understand these facts any more. If they read or watch Mahabharata on TV, they usually consider it as a "story" only, and do not ask themselves questions or try to understand the meaning of the story and its teachings, so they end up with wrong ideas.

For example, we read in the newspapers and hear that many people have lost their faith in God because God was not always ready to supply them with everything they wanted or protect them from all troubles and death of their relatives of friends. Others observe how devotees are sometimes harassed and put in troubles by demoniac people, and they conclude that God does not exist, or that He does not care for His devotees. So they join the demoniac side and also follow the example of degraded people by harassing and disrespecting devotees. What then is the real meaning of Krishna's protection?

In the above verse, Krishna addresses Arjuna as Kaunteya, "son of Kunti". Kunti was the aunt of Krishna, and in Srimad Bhagavata Purana she offers Him some beautiful prayers about the protection that Krishna gives to His devotees.

yatha hrishikesha khalena devaki kamsena ruddhaticiram sucarpita
vimocitaham ca sahatmaja vibho tvayaiva nathena muhur vipad-ganat

O Hrishikesha, master of the senses, You have released Your mother Devaki, who was long imprisoned and distressed by the envious King Kamsa, and me and my children from a series of constant dangers.

vishan mahagneh purushada darshanat asat-sabhaya vana-vasa-kricchratah
mridhe mridhe aneka maharathastrato drauny astratas casma hare abhiraksitah

You have protected us from poison, from a great fire, from cannibals, from the vicious assembly of the Kauravas, and when we were wandering here and there in exile, living in the forest. You have also protected us from many great generals and warriors during the battle, and now from the weapon of Asvatthama.

vipadah santu tah sasvat tatra tatra jagad guro
bhavato darshanam yat syad apunar bhava darshanam

Let all dangers come, and we are even ready to face other difficulties, because in all these times we have been blessed by Your personal presence, and thus we have been freed from the cycle of samsara and we will not have to get a new birth.
Queen Kunti offers the example of the long sufferings of Krishna's own mother, Devaki. Since the very day of her marriage, Devaki was subjected to endless harassment by her demoniac brother Kamsa, who kept her and her husband in jail and killed all her six children at birth. Devaki and Vasudeva had to wait for 16 years in intolerable sufferings before being released by Krishna, and they were the mother and father of the Supreme Lord, Sri Krishna and Balarama. Who could be more worthy of Krishna's love and protection?

Even Queen Kunti, His aunt, her children the Pandavas and their wife Draupadi were constantly harassed for many years by their own relatives and had to face many difficulties. Protection by Krishna does not mean that a devotee will never have problems, but rather that a devotee will never be destroyed. Whatever will happen to the devotee, it is according to the plan of the Lord for the ultimate benefit of all.

yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata
abhyuttanam adharmasya tadatmanam srijamy aham

Whenever there is a decline in the principles of religion and a predominant rise in irreligion, at that time I descend personally.

paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskritam
dharma samsthapanarthaya sambhavami yuge yuge

Age after age, I manifest personally to protect the good and saintly people, to destroy the evil doers and to re-establish the principles of eternal dharma.
So while Krishna was personally present on this planet, why He did not protect His own mother and father (certainly good and saintly people) from being kept in jail for sixteen years and having their six children brutally killed by their own uncle?

Why Krishna did not stop Dhritarastra from spoiling his children, or Duryodhana and Duhsashana from insulting and harrassing the Pandavas and their good wife?
The answer is very simple. Because all these devotees are playing a crucial role in executing the Lord's plan and everything is carefully arranged by the Lord even if we do not understand His plan through our limited material intelligence and vision.
One reason is that the Lord wants His devotees to set a good example for the mass of people, by showing how a devotee faces difficulties and overcomes them, so that the general people can take inspiration and encouragement in their small and great problems in life. This world is like a jungle, a dangerous place where there is danger at every step, padam padam yat vipadam, and therefore no one can expect a life free of troubles. Even the greatest devotees and saints are subject to difficulties when they reside in this world, although the Lord takes personal care of them and ensures their overall protection.

The proper way to behave in face of all difficulties is the course of action recommended by Sri Krishna in Bhagavad gita to His devotee, friend and cousin Arjuna the Pandava: we should act of duty only, without attachment for the fruits of our actions, and offer everything to the Lord. All our activities must be performed for the Lord and by always remembering the Lord:

yajnarthat karmano anyatra loko ayam karma-bandhanah
tad-artham karma kaunteya mukta-sangah samacara
yat karosi yas asnasi yaj juhosi dadasi yat
yat tapasyasi kaunteya tat kurusva mad-arpanam

Action should be performed only for the sake of sacrifice, otherwise it will bind the actor to the consequences of karma. Whatever you do, whatever you eat, whatever you give in charity, whatever difficulty or sufferings you have to undergo, you must offer everything to the Lord in sacrifice.

satatam kirtayanto mam yatantas ca dridha-vratah
namasyantas ca mam bhaktya nitya-yukta upasate

Always chanting the glories of the Lord and talking about Him, endeavoring with great determination to stick to their spiritual principles, bowing down before the Lord, these devotees are always in the presence of the Lord and constantly worship Him with all their activities.

A second reason is that the Lord maintains the universe by arranging for the destruction of evil-doers and demoniac people. Such people can be destroyed by the accumulated consequences of their sins, which become much heavier when they are committed against a sincere devotee of the Lord. So the merciful devotees accept to come and play this role in the world by giving to the evil-doers the opportunity to reform and become free from their sins, or meet their doom by targeting them with their misbehavior. Demoniac people are useful in the general plan of the Lord's universe as there is always the need of punishing criminals, so the Lord's energy puts criminals against each other, and they will punish each other easily.

Srimad Bhagavatam gives the example of a thorn which is removed by using another thorn; however, when the work is done, the used thorn must be discarded, otherwise it will create unnecessary troubles. How this will happen?
The pricking thorn of the demoniac people which may create troubles to the social body will be eliminated by its own weight, increased through the harassment of good saintly people who are devotees of the Supreme Lord.
Actually the Lord Himself, when He descended in His Krishna-lila, wanted to relieve the burden of the Earth by destroying the demoniac armies, and arranged for His devotees to become the catalyst of the war of Kurukshetra. Maharaja Draupada celebrated a yajna to obtain progeny who could destroy his enemy Drona, and from the sacrificial fire both Draupadi and Dhristadyumna were born. Actually the real destroyer of the Kauravas was Draupadi, because Krishna decided that all of them would be destroyed when they dared to insult His great friend Draupadi.

sri krishna krishna-sakha vrishni rishabhavani druk
rajanya vamsa dahananapavarga virya
govinda go-dvija-surarti haravatara
yogeshvarakhila guroh bhagavan namas te

A third reason is suggested by Queen Kunti in her prayers to the Lord: the sufferings and difficulties that a devotee has to undergo according to his or her role in the Lord's plan are actually a purification and an opportunity to surrender more completely to the Lord. Actually, a long life of illusion in this world is not a very good thing. No matter how hard we try to improve our situation, and no matter how sincerely we work, we cannot change the nature of this world, which is impermanent and full of suffering. All those who have obtained a material body will have to accept the inherent defects of a material body: impermanence, ignorance and suffering, and ultimately, to give up this body with death. We should therefore make the best use of this material body by utilizing it in the service of the Lord only, because it is also a valuable instrument enabling us to work for the Lord and for the propagation of His message in this world. A material body allows us to speak about the Lord and His mission to those who do not have spiritual senses and therefore are not able to contact directly the Lord and receive His instructions, so we should also value our own body and take care of it, but we should never mistake it for our own identity and purpose of life. Our body is simply an instrument, a vehicle, useful for a good work. Our family relationships are karmic relationships in which we must act properly in order to fulfill our duties and facilitate those who are in our care so that they can also attain spiritual liberation. The six children of Devaki who were killed by Kamsa actually had to suffer their past karma, and then by the blessed contact with such great devotees they attained liberation and were free to return to the Vaikunthaloka, where they enjoyed a trascendental and eternal life full of knowledge and bliss. We should also consider our family members as spirit souls who have temporarily come in contact with us for the purpose of spiritual development. Otherwise, our life will not be better or more respectable than an animal's life. The gift and opportunity of a human birth actually offers us the greatest benefit: developing spiritual consciousness and attain liberation.

yasyatma buddhi kunape tri dhatuke sva dhi kalatradishu bhauma ijya dhih
yat tirtha buddhi salile na karhicit janesu abhijesu sa eva go kharah

Simply living on the platform of the material body is the animal level. Also animals have family relationships and take care of their eating, sleeping and defending. A human life is meant for something more than that. This does not simply mean that we should live for a higher purpose, but that we should also become compassionate to the animals and understand their sufferings and needs.
Our real purpose is not to settle nicely in this impermanent world and to lose our spiritual memory in sports and material relationships, but to prepare ourselves for the attainment of our real goal: liberation. Social dharma, artha and kama are only important as much as they serve for the attainment of moksha. By themselves, they are not permanent and they do not constitute the goal of life. On the contrary, the real goal of life consists in reaching the transcendental spiritual level of Krishna consciousness.

bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate
vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma sudurlabhah
sarva dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja
aham tvam sarva papebhyo mokshaisyami ma sucah

By always engaging in the service of the Lord, and surrendering to His plan, a devotee finds real happiness and peace of mind even the most difficult situations, and at the same time benefits all those who come in touch with him or her.
May the all merciful Lord bless us all and give us permanent liberation from all difficulties.
______________________
Manonatha Dasa (ACBSP)
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Posted: 10 years ago
Originally posted by: Cool-n-Fresh

Though all this was to bring the God's incarnation down,I wish they remained happy like Yashoda & Nand!

 
Sorry Cherry, I just realized I forgot to address this part! If the amount of suffering in VasuDevaki's life was meant to teach us that love is strong and enduring, then the lack of joys they experienced can teach us that love is selfless. It gives and gives, but asks for nothing in return. They asked God to appear as their child so that they could love him with the depth and purity of vaatsalya bhaav, not so that he could please them with his baal roop. It was a way of guaranteeing that they would always be immersed in his thoughts, not the other way around. This reminds me of a dialogue from the old Ramayan that I love very much. When Bharat questions Shri Ram at Chitrakoot while trying to convince him to come back home during Ayodhya Kand, he says doesn't my love have any value to you? And Shri Ram says "Prem kiya hai, to bin mol bik jaao". I think VasuDevaki's painful virah from Krishna even after going through so much to get him in the first place is a perfect illustration of this lesson. If we can ask God for anything, we should ask him to make us love him more purely and intensely. Asking for Him to love us back is redundant, because he can't help but love us anyway!
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Posted: 10 years ago
Originally posted by: lola610



@ Sruja - thank you for providing all of those backstories from various sources, dear. I was aware had already encountered these versions of VasuDevaki's past (yes that's what I call them, apna to puraana rishta hai lol) during the "quest" phase I mentioned to Cherry above. However, I found them all highly dissatisfactory for a number of reasons.
 
For one, the Dashrath-Kaikeyi as Vasudev-Devaki story has been popularly circulated in recent years but it's not backed in any of the 18 major puraanas so no idea where it came from. Its main logical hole is this - if Dashrath = Vasudev, Kaushalya = Yashoda, and Kaikeyi = Devaki, where the hell is Nand Baba?! 
Why are you expecting Kaushalya to be the husband of Dashrath again in the next birth!?There is nothing like...the same person will be your relation again and again.Souls meet each other like travellers.They might talk to each other,share their joys but do they remain together forever?Never!Perhaps they reach or may be not depends on their destiny linked to Karmphal.

The other hole is this: if Mata Devaki "earned" her separation from Shri Krishna as Kaikeyi, then how did Mata Kaushalya earn that separation from Shri Ram? It turns into a messy cycle of who was who in their past life that just keeps confusing us and never ends.
You said it yourself!Yes,yes it is a messy cycle hence all the great gurus/God want us to put some effort and escape from this cycle!This Karma,Karma-Phal is like a naught!We can never predict the cause or origin of our sufferings.This is the ocean of Maya.Karma includes not only actions but even thoughts and speech.But,but it is true that all our sufferings are linked to one another...and bear fruits accordingly!
 
The "official" backstories we get for these characters from the older texts are as follows: Prajapati Sutapa and Prishni >> Aditi-Kashyap >> VasuDevaki, the yogi couple Drona and Dharaa >> Nand-Yashoda, and from Skanda Puraan Mr. and Mrs. Raja Ulkamukh >> Dashrath-Kaushalya.
 
I personally am not a text-loyalist, that this source is more official or that one is less so doesn't affect my acceptance of an explanation as long as the explanation itself makes sense to me.

Dear!If you observe my previous post there are two aspects.One part highlights the eternal being's greatness and his cosmic laws.Which are precisely these as stressed by many Realised Souls/God/Avatars/what ever we address...the second part with few narratives.Each has to chose the one they can assimilate!But the gods will/law doesn't change.These cosmic laws(Karma&KarmaPhal) were prevalent since the beginning of this universe.

My bigger issue with this whole line of reasoning that he/she suffered because he/she did this or that in xyz lifetime is the fact that having the father/mother of the whole universe call you his parents is a HUGE deal. It takes ridiculous amounts of virtue and devotion to earn such a pure, loving relationship with God, and for the same heart to bear that much devotion and worthiness AND the kind of envy and malice associated with Aditi the Devi Bhagavatam story is unfathomable. Devotion is transformative; once it is so much a part of you that God has elevated you to the position of his mother (which she was in that lifetime also, when he took Vaaman avtaar), to fall far enough to wish for someone's child's death is just out of the question. Since God continued to call her mother yet another incarnation after Vaaman and she wasn't "disqualified", I don't buy this Devi Bhagavatam story that maligns her with a disqualification affirming deed.

I agree that it takes lots of virtue to earn such a merit.Being the parents of Divine Avatar is not an ordinary thing to side.But let me tell you begetting the lord as your relation(which is still a material possession/material contact) is still,a million times short of that great virtue (or something beyond that which cannot be described by an ignorant soul like me) i.e;being one with the eternal being!
The highest and purest form of relation in this world is that of a God and a Devotee.What can be beyond this!?It is diffcult for me to agree with the Devi Bhagavatam narration coz I personally believe Aditi to be pure and divine being the divine mother,also I can't consider Aditi as a Human reasons I'll give when there's a topic related to this.
 
Onto the Bhagavatam verse you quoted - I believe it has been grossly mistranslated. 

there is no negative judgment cast on them for choosing "sensual life" out of desire in the material sense - because what could be better than desiring Krishna, moksh ka bhi tyaag karke unse unhi ko maangna? Isn't that what the Bhagavatam teaches us throughout?

What is Moksha!?Isn't Moksha being one with God?Desiring Moksha itself is desiring God!What is that thing higher than attaining the true form,eternal form of God!?The Lord's Yogamaya has its influence on those who are still attached to this material world.How can a person attain Moksha without his Karma getting burnt away.Who is that person whom Maya doesn't bewilder!?How did Devaki & Vasudev or Nand and Yashoda come under the influence of Lord's Maya!?Who succumbs to Illusion!?

 

Dear Lola,

In my previous post,what I've typed is just a fraction of what it really is!How can I,being an ignorant soul explain something which is of higher perception.But still with the determination of bringing forth the greatness of Almighty God (which requires no proof)those lines were posted with many quotes.

Edited

Edited by SRUJAconscience - 10 years ago
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Posted: 10 years ago
Originally posted by: Cool-n-Fresh


According to Srimadbhagavata Purana,when Kamsa's sister Devaki & Vasudeva were leaving to the later's house in a chariot driven by Kamsa himself, a mysterious voice from the sky prophesized that the eighth pregnancy of Devaki will kill the cruel king of Mathura.Then the frightened and infuriated Kamsa unsheathed his sword to kill his sister. Vasudeva begged Kamsa to spare Devaki, and promised that he will deliver each new born child to kamsa himself. Then Kamsa spared the life of Devaki.In due coures, a son was born to Devaki.According to the promise given by him, Vasudeva had to deliver the child to Kamsa.So he carried the child to Kamsa and put it in his hands.Kamsa initially let him go with his new-born since it was the first child of his sister and his enemity was with the 8th child.But later he killed one-by-one all the new-borns of Devaki and Vasudev.

Why did Vasudev & Devaki keep having children when they knew that Kamsa would harm them?Infact everytime,they saw him kill their new-borns!
Giving birth to children to get them killed!?Especially when you have to put them in the jaws of death with your own hands!?Sorry!

Also Vasudev is praised for handing over his new-borns to Kamsa sincerely,but wasn't it his duty to protect the child,being a father when in danger!?(Actually he acted the right way after Krishna's birth!)

Actually,scriptures condemn procreation when the mother & father to be are not in a position to protect and raise the child!I was wondering how proper it was for them to keep having children in such circumstances!Also how did they esp.Devaki (being a woman & a mother)undertake such a process(Motherhood - highest of all in the case of a woman) filled with Pure Love & Bonding when their infants were subject to cruelty and facing end!?

Giving birth,knowing that you have to sacrifice your children seems to be unnatural!!



Cherry

This is a fantastic question.  If I knew that my kids would get killed @ birth, then I'd avoid getting my wife pregnant.

Haven't read others' responses, but only thing I can assume is that since this was a divine announcement, they believed that they had to have at least 8 kids for the prediction to come true.

Although, I wonder - why didn't they resume having kids once Kansa was slain?  After all, Vasudev & Rohini did have Subhadra, so he & Devaki could have had 6 more kids to make up for the dead ones❓
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Posted: 10 years ago
Originally posted by: ..RamKiJanaki..

My question is how and when Kirtimaan was named. Wasn't he killed right after birth? I doubt VD named him because back in those days, priests named the children through a naamkaran.


Not only Kirtiman, each of his five brothers too were named. They were indeed named by VD who knew there was no time or the possibility of getting a priest-and hence performed the basic naamkaran- bestowing a name on the child- himself. 

His son had come into the world and he didn't want it to leave the world without having at least one sanskaar being performed. He didn't want his son to depart from the world, unnamed, without at least its parents giving it recognition.

It is also said that VD mentally gave the mandatory daan to brahmins soon after each of his sons' births