Buffie Vs Mkzara- Battle begins

We bring you the first of its kind, The Debator Vs Debator !!

 

Like I mentioned before in the introductory post we will pick an interesting statement made by any debator here on Debate Mansion( You can PM me, Soumya or Javeria if you find any statement very interesting and worth going to battle with too) and after taking the consent for the D Vs D put up the post as a challenge. It will be one of you who can challenge the member on his/her statement . The member will then have to defend his/ her statement through a One day battle !!

 

We begin our very first battle !!!

 

We have Buffie who says " the tissue certainly does not speak about one's goodness,but it speaks volumes about one's virtues,ones strong adherence to the beliefs,and one's self control ,will power and determination..."

 

  http://www.india-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=330300

To challenge this statement we have mkzara!!

 

Date: 11th August
Time:8:30 A.M EST/ 6:00P.M IST the post will be opened.

Duration of the debate : From 8:30.A.M EST /6:00P.M IST on 11th August  till 8:30 A.M EST/6:00 P.M IST on 12th August. - all of 24 hours.

 

Rules

Please read Rules and Tips for Debating and India-Forums Code of Conduct before starting with Debate Championship.

 

No post will be longer than 800 words and in the case of the closing statement no longer than 500 words.

Credits or references at the bottom do not count towards the word total.

Editing is strictly forbidden. This means any editing, for any reason. Any edited posts will be completely deleted.

 

Responses should be made within 24 hours, if people are late with their replies, they run the risk of forfeiting their reply and possibly the debate.

 

Only the contestants may participate and post to this debate . Any other comments will be deleted by the Development team.

Edited by Aparna_BD - 17 years ago

I begin..Best of luck to my opponent😊

My previous statement " the tissue certainly does not speak about one's goodness,but it speaks volumes about one's virtues,ones strong adherence to the beliefs,and one's self control ,will power and determination...".I stand by what I said.😊

The Indian culture engrains in us (knowingly or un-knowingly) a holistic (integration of mind, body and spirit) approach to most things in life.Pre-marital sex does not imply disregard for love, affection and respect between individuals and for the elders. And thus my statement "the tissue essentially does not speak about one's goodness".😊

 

I believe culture and tradition are ever changing. We can learn a great deal from what has been practiced in the past and retain those that have worked well for us but there is also a need to weed out the ones that are not relevant anymore and create new cultures and traditions as we go along. But whether we follow the old traditions or create new ones - so long as we do them for the RIGHT REASONS, we stand to benefit from them .It is not the question of westernization or a mirage of cultural differences and ethics,the question is a focus on the need. The generation today is far more complex , their greater and more strategic ability to think has also been sandwiched by premarital sex.The kind of problems that premarital sex could genetare are more devastating especially in a society like ours. The set that would approve premarital sex see it through a rose tinted glass and not the clear aspects and problems it could cause to both the partners.

 

 

Curiosity or people's getting sucked into a vortex of strong emotions culminates in their taking the plunge,and that corroborates my statement that one who has unquestionable self restraint wouldn't take the plunge.One  is always in a quandary atleast for a split second, "Should I or shouldn't I" .When there's already a doubt, even if it's for split second, one is in two minds,with one having to hide one's deeds from all and sundry,It does mean that one is not doing something which is 100% right a ka not abiding by one's beliefs… Can one confide it to their parents??..If the answer is no, then it implies that one is not adhering to one's beliefs...One has to speak an avalanche of lies to hide this fact to save one's skin.....

 

Love is great,but a major part of love is the willingness to love the other for life, even during the times when the "maelstrom of emotions" of love will no longer command prominence and this is precisely what makes marriage so important. Another thing is that the marriage is the institution that offers the sanctity and a valid passport to sex and conception. We can live as we like, but what is life without principles❓. Breaking all rules is easy,but it needs determination to abide by them. PMS in a way connotes that we are very weak in being the master of our mind(the mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master) which is a prime necessity for human growth fully (spiritually and intellectually). Pre marital sex doesn't warrant that the couple would necessarily get married and it plainly connotes that one has succumbed to one's instincts and to the temptation. What makes a human being superior to every other  created by God is the fact that we can think ,use our brains to weigh the pros and cons and excercise restraint when needed.

 

 

WITH GREAT FREEDOM COMES GREATER RESPONSIBILITY.The onus to make choices lies in our hands,and we must be responsible towards it.Controlling the basic instincts calls for great determination.We need to draw a line somewhere.But the rhetoric question…How far is too far? It is the mindset of the culture and direction which guides the young towards certain beliefs and thinking. The premarital sex is issue that can be debated and it remains uncertain who is right and who is not.Sex is developed & controlled by the hormones that flow in human body. On moral and personal grounds,one may choose to abstain from it.The question is not whether pre marital sex is right ot wrong,but its as to how resolute and stout hearted a human being is..And all this applies to men too😛😛

 

 

 

Buffie as always I am going to enjoy debating with you. You're a phenomenal debator,Best of luck, may the better debator win.

Buffie in a previous debate you stated "the tissue certainly does not speak about one's goodness,but it speaks volumes about one's virtues,ones strong adherence to the beliefs,and one's self control ,will power and determination..." and I disagree.

There are different cultures in the world, with different norms and rules. In America we have almost an entirely spiritual view of pre-marital sex sex, that is people are allowed to enagage in pre-marital sex as long as they are in love and committed relationships. Pre-martial sex is not the conglomeration of immorality and vice that it seems to people.

Buffie I simply disagree with you on the fact that marriage is the only institution where people are bonded to each other. In this day and age being married is of no consequence as we see the climbing divorce rates. Marriage doesn't hinder people when they want to engage in immoral acts such as adultery or rape(in marriage). Marriage is not the ultimate expression of love and commitment that people have made it out to be. What makes it that people have to get married to have their relationship counted as a "real relationship". Why is it that marriage "offers the sanctity and a valid passport to sex and conception." Simply because two people sign papers they are more in love with each other or their relationship is more correct. There are people who spend their whole lives together because they love each other but they haven't gotten married. People are not bonded to each other through marriage they are bonded to each other through love, respect, caring and understanding . Who says that people have to get married. PMS doesn't mean that one succumbed to one's instincts or temptation and marriage doesnt mean that one has no self control.This is evident in my friend's case. She is 26 and has been dating the same guy for 6 years now. They decided to move in together after dating 2 years and having been living together (without marriage) ever since They have been in a monogamous relationship for 6 years and they love each other, if they choose to express that love who are we to disagree with their expression. Many marriages dont last as long as their relationship did so are they any less committed to each other simply because they havent signed a few papers. She isn't living without principles or morals, because she is not consorting with somoene she doesn't know or love and is with simply for sex. She doesnt have a problem of self control, she waited until she was ready and she had no more doubts about having sex with this guy then she would have had about marrying him. She chose to be with him when she was ready without pressure from him or anyone else. She isn't breaking any rules or hurting anyone else since her family knows the guy and they like him as well. Restraint wasn't necessary in this case because they are adults who are ready to have sex and they dont need a piece of paper telling them that now its okay for you to have sex while before it wasn't. Does marriage change anything in how one feels about their partner or their relationship. Marriage is simply a legal bond which has no implications for one's relationship.

On the other hand to denote how waiting till marriage to have sex doesn't mean self restraint are two people from my school who are over the age of 18. These two had been dating throughout high school and "loved" each other. However, they couldn't "be" with each other since they weren't married and didn't want to deal with the shame or guilt of pre-marital sex. So these two decided to get married right out of high school, without jobs. Thus jeapordizing their futures and careers simply because they wanted to have sex with each other but wanted to wait till marriage. That shows no self restraint to me, sure they waited until they were bound by law and then had sex but does that mean they have will power. I dont feel it does and yet they would be right to engage in sex and two people who are obviously in love and are in a committed relationship and bound to each by mutual love rather than law wouldn't be right. This is hypocrisy at its finest.

We have to realize that not everyone shares the same beliefs as us. There are those who believe that sex outside the institute of marriage is completely wrong, and there are those who believe that sex before marriage is fine as long as you intend to get married, then there are those who believe sex before marriage is fine as long as you are in love. We dont share the same beliefs so to say that someone else's beliefs or position are less moral simply because we think they are is unfair. I dont think that PMS has much to do with morality because that changes from culture to culture, from religion to religion, and tradition to tradition. So i agree the premise of this debate should be if engaging in PMS shows a character weakness or lack of self restraint rather than the morality of PMS.

I apologize in advance if this ideologue puts you to sleep😆

Originally posted by: mkzara

There are different cultures in the world, with different norms and rules. In America we have almost an entirely spiritual view of pre-marital sex, that is people are allowed to enagage in pre-marital sex as long as they are in love and committed relationships.

Yes,there are different cultures,and moreover,its a clash of ideologies.But I wasnt referring to the American way of life(I cannot,as I really am an ignoramus when it comes to how things function in the west).The girl in question in the other debate was a desi,and I was talking about the South Asian culture.

Originally posted by: mkzara

Pre=marital sex is not the conglomeration of immorality and vice versa that it seems to people.

I was careful enough not to use the word immorality till now😆.Lets throw light on it now.Morality is defined as " relating to the standards of good or bad behaviour, fairness, honesty, etc. which each person believes in, rather than to laws"....The keyword "beliefs".The western beliefs and the Eastern ones are as different as chalk and cheese.When one adopts a culture,(either willingly or due to adversity)one always finds words to defend (or explain) oneself.I have never been judgemental about the Western way of life,as beliefs do differ,and beliefs can never be right or wrong.Its all in the perspective.

But,in South Asia,is it seen as something spiritual??Quite not.I do believe the sex per se is a human concept,not western or indian(if not why is PMS prevalant in the villages and in the lower echleons of the society…and I'm sure that the western bug hasn't bit the villagers)

The difference …In the west,its accepted and isnt considered a taboo.But in the east,especially in India,its very much a taboo(the silent majority would concur)..Now,one might say that we do have many evils prevalant in our society and one must not be dogmatic and blindly accept what has been ingrained.Agreed,but we cannot completely shun our culture and adopt the western outlook towards life.Atleast its impossible for people who do not migrate to the West.

In the west,parents are perhaps completely fine with their kids losing their virginity.The kids dont hide the fact that they are dating,or that they have slept with their boy/girlfriends...But,for a child who has been raised the Indian way,Taking the plunge would mean not adhering to the beliefs(and i wouldnt buy the excuse if someone living in India cites the "western outlook as the reason" and thus justifying one's action.That plainly means aping the west🤢)

Originally posted by: mkzara

Buffie I simply disagree with you on the fact that marriage is the only institution where people are bonded to each other.

NO,I never said that.Sometimes,certain other bonds(such as friendship or a parental bond) which may be way more solid than a nuptial bond...But when we are talkiing about the "romantic liaisons",I believe that marriage is the ultimate bond.Or else a ceremony like marriage would never have been conceived.

Originally posted by: mkzara

In this day and age being married is of no consequence as we see the climbing divorce rates.

AND that is precisely what is disheartening....The importance attached to marriage is belittled..Marriage has become child's play,something too jejune..sometimes marriages going bust with people not even giving their 100%.I'm not saying that one has to invariably stay in a marriage which isnt working.But people must give their 100%,and if it still doesnt work,they must part.Mostly,people arent diabolical,they are grey....

Marriage and dating arent one and the same.Marriage is certainly several notches above dating.....Marriage encompasses honesty and reliability of character,one is always answerable to one's spouse in a marriage....yeah,all the above definitely apply to commited relationships too,but in a marriage,there is certainly an extra measure of responsibility...Jilting or breaking up isnt as tough as getting divorced..Marriage(atleast in the indian perspective) is "milan" of two families,whereas in the west,there's a totally different vision of marriage too...One doesnt too often see a "joint family"(not saying that that is the best way of life or anything as such) in the west..Leading a life of fulfillment is not merely sex,but also complete understanding between the partners, strength of the marriage institution and also raising of a loving and harmonious family.Thus NO-NO to pre-marital sex is NOT BECAUSE its A TABOO ,but because its not the ideal step towards leading and living life with a sense of purpose and fulfillment.

Originally posted by: mkzara

Marriage doesn't hinder people when they want to engage in immoral acts such as adultery or rape(in marriage).

AND i'm not defending rape or adultry or infidelity or any of the other evils that are existent.But,at the same time,certain evils doesnt belittle the sanctity of marriage.

Originally posted by: mkzara

Marriage is not the ultimate expression of love and commitment that people have made it out to be.

But that's how its seen in the East.The point is,if marriage is not the ultimate,then what's the whole point of a marriage....One can as well remove the ceremony called marriage from all cultures....Would that be possible...No...Its an age old tradition,and reiterating,we need to model ourselves according to the current times,but we need to retain some customs of the past.....

Originally posted by: mkzara

What makes it that people have to get married to have their relationship counted as a "real relationship". Why is it that marriage "offers the sanctity and a valid passport to sex and conception." Simply because two people sign papers they are more in love with each other or their relationship is more correct.

TRUE...two people who are married need to necessarily be in love when they get married,but as I said,a sense of committment,security and responsibility creeps inside a marriage which may make the marriage insurmountable and prove to be beneficial in the long run..and at times,the "respect" or "affection" that one harbours for the spouse may be much more stronger than love...A misconception is that love is the strongest emotion,and thus the fact the two people are in love would absolve them of all their other mistakes and they can do anything..Love doesnt always culminate in people's getting married...

Marriage is not simply the signing under a dotted line,it does have some significance,a helluva amount of venerableness and piety ......

Originally posted by: mkzara

There are people who spend their whole lives together because they love each other but they haven't gotten married. People are not bonded to each other through marriage they are bonded to each other through love, respect, caring and understanding .

AND that is precisely what beats me..I am trying my best not to be judgmental,but it seems like in the west no one cares a toss about the institution called marriage...I dont know whether people fear getting married,or that they dont believe in marriage,or they arent serious enough.....

Originally posted by: mkzara

Who says that people have to get married. PMS doesn't mean that one succumbed to one's instincts or temptation and marriage doesnt mean that one has no self control.

lets talk about the indian society,as since i have already said,i wasnt talking about the western way of life....In an society like that of india's,where marriage still holds some importance,and where marriage is much more than just signing a dotted line,and where people believe that a marriage is sacred and the valid passport for sex,what else does PMS connote????

Originally posted by: mkzara

This is evident in my friend's case. She is 26 and has been dating the same guy for 6 years now. They decided to move in together after dating 2 years and having been living together (without marriage) ever since They have been in a monogamous relationship for 6 years and they love each other, if they choose to express that love who are we to disagree with their expression.

I'm no one to assess somebody else's choice,and it seems that she has adopted the western way of life,and thus perhaps she isnt going against her beliefs.I'm not against pre marital sex per se,I'm against not abiding by the beliefs,and thus committing further sins by being untruthful and by being downright mendacious

Originally posted by: mkzara

Many marriages dont last as long as their relationship did so are they any less committed to each other simply because they havent signed a few papers.

NO,I cant talk about the committment of a person about whom I know zilch.

Originally posted by: mkzara

She isn't living without principles or morals, because she is not consorting with somoene she doesn't know or love and is with simply for sex. She doesnt have a problem of self control, she waited until she was ready and she had no more doubts about having sex with this guy then she would have had about marrying him. She chose to be with him when she was ready without pressure from him or anyone else. She isn't breaking any rules or hurting anyone else since her family knows the guy and they like him as well. Restraint wasn't necessary in this case because they are adults who are ready to have sex and they dont need a piece of paper telling them that now its okay for you to have sex while before it wasn't.

Reiterating,people dont look at things from this angle in the east,mostly,girls live with her parents till the marriage here,and live in relationships arent yet quite in vogue.And I wasnt talking about the western society.

Originally posted by: mkzara

Does marriage change anything in how one feels about their partner or their relationship. Marriage is simply a legal bond which has no implications for one's relationship.

Again,I have said everything about this in the earlier paragraph..nothing more to add...The debate arises as people have different notions about marriage.

Originally posted by: mkzara

On the other hand to denote how waiting till marriage to have sex doesn't mean self restraint are two people from my school who are over the age of 18. These two had been dating throughout high school and "loved" each other. However, they couldn't "be" with each other since they weren't married and didn't want to deal with the shame or guilt of pre-marital sex. So these two decided to get married right out of high school, without jobs. Thus jeapordizing their futures and careers simply because they wanted to have sex with each other but wanted to wait till marriage. That shows no self restraint to me, sure they waited until they were bound by law and then had sex but does that mean they have will power.

That was plain idiocy🤢.Citing the example of a juvenile couple isnt convincing enough...Marrying only to have sex is 🤢🤢.....How about errmmmm....😛talking about a couple,who were childhood sweethearts,who never let their academics get affected due to their feeling for each other,did well in life,got into good jobs,then finally married.....

Marriage or Life itself is certainly not for sexual pleasure alone. There is much to life than sex.The pre-marital 'waiting' is surely not going to do us any harm,whereas the "taking the plunge at a moment of weakness or urge" entails several troubles(again,not talking about the west)...

Originally posted by: mkzara

I dont feel it does and yet they would be right to engage in sex and two people who are obviously in love and are in a committed relationship and bound to each by mutual love rather than law wouldn't be right. This is hypocrisy at its finest.

HMMMMM,interesting..Marriage is considered a burden,something which law inflicts on two people who arent the least interested.......The point that i'm trying to get across is that,if two people are head over heels in love with each other,and are dead sure that they cannot live without each other,why do they fear marriage😕...and lol come on,saying that marriage has no significance at all is difficult to sell.....In India,many a times,marriages are arranged,the couple arent invariably in love,but does that belittle the inviolability of marriage,or does that make the couple hypocrites...I'm afriad,not.....A person may not get married to the one he/she loves,he/she might still harbour feelings for the beloved,but may yet be an honest and faithful husband/wife...does that make him/her a hypocrite or alter the impregnability of the marriage❓...Definitely not....

Originally posted by: mkzara

We have to realize that not everyone shares the same beliefs as us.

YES,and people must also realize that comparing two cultures is quite preposterous and people hailing from different cultures would have different outlooks towards life,and at the end of the day,these are opinions,which can never be right or wrong😊

Originally posted by: mkzara

We dont share the same beliefs so to say that someone else's beliefs or position are less moral simply because we think they are is unfair.

Reiterating,i wasnt speaking about the western culture where pre marital sex is perfectly allright and is accepted....My problem is when people take the plunge,then speak a plethora of lies,get into unwanted troubles,hide it from the parents..I've seen this happening to my close acquaintances in school...Most of my classmates are dating,some are quite intimate,but their parents have no idea about anything...Most are dating in the sly,and ALWAYS lie ,lie again and again,and continue cheating their parents....That gets my goat😡

Originally posted by: mkzara

I dont think that PMS has much to do with morality because that changes from culture to culture, from religion to religion, and tradition to tradition. So i agree the premise of this debate should be if engaging in PMS shows a character weakness or lack of self restraint rather than the morality of PMS.

😆😆...YES,I has said moral grounds....I had never used the word morality,as each person would define it in a different way....When one hides the fact that one has consummated,when one lies,and when one sweeps it under the carpet,and when one feigns to be a virgin,then that means that one is acting like a hypocrite and isnt adibind by one's beliefs

PS a few spelling mistakes 😳 ..Its judgmental,abiding and echelon....Didnt proofread carefully😳,and editing isnt allowed 😊

Originally posted by: Buffie

I believe culture and tradition are ever changing. We can learn a great deal from what has been practiced in the past and retain those that have worked well for us but there is also a need to weed out the ones that are not relevant anymore and create new cultures and traditions as we go along. But whether we follow the old traditions or create new ones - so long as we do them for the RIGHT REASONS, we stand to benefit from them .It is not the question of westernization or a mirage of cultural differences and ethics,the question is a focus on the need. The generation today is far more complex , their greater and more strategic ability to think has also been sandwiched by premarital sex.The kind of problems that premarital sex could genetare are more devastating especially in a society like ours. The set that would approve premarital sex see it through a rose tinted glass and not the clear aspects and problems it could cause to both the partners.

I understand that you were speaking of the eastern culture, but you have to understand that our culture is changing as well. People are more open minded about PMS and relationships then they once were. In the old days, love marriage was a sort of insult to your family and friends but now it is accepted, the same way people are learning that relationships and PMS are not harmful and dont have disastrous effects if one is responsible and careful about them. I dont know which devastating effects you speak of and how it could cause any problems if people are reasonable. I understand that there are people like that girl's fiance who are not reasonable about things like one's past but there are fools in every time. I know there are tons of people who won't let their daughters wear jeans because it is westernization and their daughters will go wild if they start dressing like "whores". I am not looking at PMS through rose tinted glasses but i dont see any harmful effects besides the physical which can be minimized through proper precautions.

Originally posted by: Buffie

But,in South Asia,is it seen as something spiritual??Quite not.I do believe the sex per se is a human concept,not western or indian(if not why is PMS prevalant in the villages and in the lower echleons of the society…and I'm sure that the western bug hasn't bit the villagers)

The difference …In the west,its accepted and isnt considered a taboo.But in the east,especially in India,its very much a taboo(the silent majority would concur)..Now,one might say that we do have many evils prevalant in our society and one must not be dogmatic and blindly accept what has been ingrained.Agreed,but we cannot completely shun our culture and adopt the western outlook towards life.Atleast its impossible for people who do not migrate to the West.

In the west,parents are perhaps completely fine with their kids losing their virginity.The kids dont hide the fact that they are dating,or that they have slept with their boy/girlfriends...But,for a child who has been raised the Indian way,Taking the plunge would mean not adhering to the beliefs(and i wouldnt buy the excuse if someone living in India cites the "western outlook as the reason" and thus justifying one's action.That plainly means aping the west🤢)

Buffie you said it yourself sex is not a western concept, it is a human concept and then you go and say that we shudn't accept it because its western and we shouldn't give up our culture. It also exists in India, people have just closed their eyes to it. Teenagers in india are having sex in large numbers simply because people are not willing to discuss this issue. If people talked to their kids rather than saying "sex is wrong and you'll go to hell if you do it before marriage" than teenagers might wait to have sex until they're ready.Premarital sex among 18- to 20-year-olds in metros is as high as 65.6 per cent amongst girls and 63.3 amongst boys.Extramarital affairs amongst married couples in the age group of 18 to 30 is as high as 10 to12 per cent. Post-30, this figure increases due to the onset of boredom in marriages. (1) People in India are having sex, they are engaging in pre-marital and extra-marital affairs they are just too scared to talk about it. So we can blame westernization for sex, it always existed in India people just didnt talk about it. Buffie doing something that you feel is right even if other people dont do it doesnt automatically make you wrong. The beliefs in India are changing and they're not due to westernization, each culture evolves and adopts wat is beneficial for it. It is entirely presumptuous and insulting to say that we can't think for ourselves and are blindly copying the west.

Originally posted by: Buffie

NO,I never said that.Sometimes,certain other bonds(such as friendship or a parental bond) which may be way more solid than a nuptial bond...But when we are talkiing about the "romantic liaisons",I believe that marriage is the ultimate bond.Or else a ceremony like marriage would never have been conceived.

Originally posted by: Buffie

AND that is precisely what is disheartening....The importance attached to marriage is belittled..Marriage has become child's play,something too jejune..sometimes marriages going bust with people not even giving their 100%.I'm not saying that one has to invariably stay in a marriage which isnt working.But people must give their 100%,and if it still doesnt work,they must part.Mostly,people arent diabolical,they are grey....

Originally posted by: Buffie

Marriage and dating arent one and the same.Marriage is certainly several notches above dating.....Marriage encompasses honesty and reliability of character,one is always answerable to one's spouse in a marriage....yeah,all the above definitely apply to commited relationships too,but in a marriage,there is certainly an extra measure of responsibility...Jilting or breaking up isnt as tough as getting divorced..Marriage(atleast in the indian perspective) is "milan" of two families,whereas in the west,there's a totally different vision of marriage too...One doesnt too often see a "joint family"(not saying that that is the best way of life or anything as such) in the west..Leading a life of fulfillment is not merely sex,but also complete understanding between the partners, strength of the marriage institution and also raising of a loving and harmonious family.Thus NO-NO to pre-marital sex is NOT BECAUSE its A TABOO ,but because its not the ideal step towards leading and living life with a sense of purpose and fulfillment.

I am not talking about casual dating, I am talking about two people in a committed relationship. I dont agree that marriage puts an extra responsibility on you that a truly committed relationship doesnt. Breaking off a couple of years old relationship is just as hard as breaking up a marriage, the only thing about marriage that is harder is the legality of it. I agree that in our culture a marriage is between families more than people, but that is not the right way of things. A marriage should be between the poeple who are starting a new life together rather than their families. Fulfillment in one's life does not require marriage, it requires someone who will love you, care for you, understand you and be with you through every hardship in life. Marriage doesn't guarantee that nothing does. People raise loving families without getting married, they raise their children well without getting married. Just because a life with your love outside of marriage isn't ideal doesnt mean that it is wrong. Marriage is not the ultimate show of commitment or love, it is spending your life with some which does that. Marriage without that bond that connection is worthless and that bond without marriage is just as strong as it would be with it. Marriage is simply putting a stamp of legality and approval on a relationship, and just because somene doesnt have that stamp doesnt mean their relationship isn't real.

Originally posted by: Buffie

AND i'm not defending rape or adultry or infidelity or any of the other evils that are existent.But,at the same time,certain evils doesnt belittle the sanctity of marriage. 

You're right about the fact that a few evils dont belittle the sanctity of any institution, but the sanctity is of all relationships. So to say that its easier to cheat or lie or break up or leave someone because u r in a relationship rather than married is untrue. Sure some people don't take their relationships seriously but these are the people that dont take their marriages seriously. Marriage in itself is nothing, it is all the emotions and the promises associated with it that are a big deal. If two people make those promises to each other without marriage then wat is the harm in it?

Originally posted by: Buffie

But that's how its seen in the East.The point is,if marriage is not the ultimate,then what's the whole point of a marriage....One can as well remove the ceremony called marriage from all cultures....Would that be possible...No...Its an age old tradition,and reiterating,we need to model ourselves according to the current times,but we need to retain some customs of the past.....

Just because something is a tradition doesn't make it right. It is almost as if you're saying sorry just because something is unnecessary and not totally correct doesnt mean we can change it so we should just suck it up and live as others expect us to. Buffie accepting change doesnt mean that we will lose who we are, what our culture is, but we have to realize that times change and people change. Change isn't evil, it is growth and without recognizing that change if necessary our culture will die.

Originally posted by: Buffie

TRUE...two people who are married need to necessarily be in love when they get married,but as I said,a sense of committment,security and responsibility creeps inside a marriage which may make the marriage insurmountable and prove to be beneficial in the long run..and at times,the "respect" or "affection" that one harbours for the spouse may be much more stronger than love...A misconception is that love is the strongest emotion,and thus the fact the two people are in love would absolve them of all their other mistakes and they can do anything..Love doesnt always culminate in people's getting married...

Marriage is not simply the signing under a dotted line,it does have some significance,a helluva amount of venerableness and piety ......

Buffie I keep repeating myself but people can be committed to each other without marriage.People can respectful and affectionate to each other with out marriage. Commitment doesnt come from marriage because if it did nobody would cheat on anyone and there would be very few divorces. Marriage in this day and age is not a sense of security because now that divorce is so easily accessible to say that marriage is forever is ludicrous. People are the ones who make commitment who stick with each other in times of need and hardship. It is not the other way around that an institute makes people do something. I feel like you are saying that marriage makes people loyal or be good to their spouses, no people are loyal themselves with or without an institution.

Originally posted by: Buffie

I'm no one to assess somebody else's choice,and it seems that she has adopted the western way of life,and thus perhaps she isnt going against her beliefs.I'm not against pre marital sex per se,I'm against not abiding by the beliefs,and thus committing further sins by being untruthful and by being downright mendacious

Buffie this whole debate started with assessing someone else's choice regarding sex and virginity and lying. So discussing someone else's choice shouldn't be a problem.

Originally posted by: Buffie

NO,I cant talk about the committment of a person about whom I know zilch. 

We did talk about the desi girl and her decision to lie so at this point aversion to judging and discussion of someone else's decisions seems rather moot.

Originally posted by: Buffie

Reiterating,people dont look at things from this angle in the east,mostly,girls live with her parents till the marriage here,and live in relationships arent yet quite in vogue.And I wasnt talking about the western society.

I have already talked about change in India and how i feel about it.

Originally posted by: Buffie

That was plain idiocy🤢.Citing the example of a juvenile couple isnt convincing enough...Marrying only to have sex is 🤢🤢.....How about errmmmm....😛talking about a couple,who were childhood sweethearts,who never let their academics get affected due to their feeling for each other,did well in life,got into good jobs,then finally married.....

Marriage or Life itself is certainly not for sexual pleasure alone. There is much to life than sex.The pre-marital 'waiting' is surely not going to do us any harm,whereas the "taking the plunge at a moment of weakness or urge" entails several troubles(again,not talking about the west)...

If someone has sex due to reasons such as pressure or lack of self-restraint that is different. However, not everyone who engages in PMS has a problem with self restraint. Some people believe in waiting till they're ready rather than till somene tells them they're ready (i.e. when you get married). Sure waiting won't do anyone harm but wat is the point of it when there is no real reason behind it. Relationships where people have sex are not for sexual pleasure alone, these relationships are for the same reasons that people get married, such as companionship. Just because someone is not married doesnt mean that they are in a relationship for purely sexual reasons.

Originally posted by: Buffie

 

HMMMMM,interesting..Marriage is considered a burden,something which law inflicts on two people who arent the least interested.......The point that i'm trying to get across is that,if two people are head over heels in love with each other,and are dead sure that they cannot live without each other,why do they fear marriage😕...and lol come on,saying that marriage has no significance at all is difficult to sell.....In India,many a times,marriages are arranged,the couple arent invariably in love,but does that belittle the inviolability of marriage,or does that make the couple hypocrites...I'm afriad,not.....A person may not get married to the one he/she loves,he/she might still harbour feelings for the beloved,but may yet be an honest and faithful husband/wife...does that make him/her a hypocrite or alter the impregnability of the marriage❓...Definitely not....

Why should two people have to get married when they aren't in that place right now. I asked this guy i worked with who was living with his girlfriend if he loved her and he said he did and i said okay do you intend to marry her and he said no but he would live with her till he died. he left his job in one city for her and moved to another. Now that really means that he doesn't want to live without her and that is the case even without him marrying her. Marriage would be of no consequence.

I sound like a broken record but you keep saying it and i have to repeat myself marriage is not an impregnable institution. Marriage doesn't make people commit. Marriage doesn't make people responsible. Marriage doesnt make people faithful. People do these things. People commit to each other and if that commitment is strong enough they dont marriage to prove it to others and if it isnt then a marriage won't save their relationship and it will die its own death.

Originally posted by: Buffie

Reiterating,i wasnt speaking about the western culture where pre marital sex is perfectly allright and is accepted....My problem is when people take the plunge,then speak a plethora of lies,get into unwanted troubles,hide it from the parents..I've seen this happening to my close acquaintances in school...Most of my classmates are dating,some are quite intimate,but their parents have no idea about anything...Most are dating in the sly,and ALWAYS lie ,lie again and again,and continue cheating their parents....That gets my goat😡

Originally posted by: Buffie

When one hides the fact that one has consummated,when one lies,and when one sweeps it under the carpet,and when one feigns to be a virgin,then that means that one is acting like a hypocrite and isnt adibind by one's beliefs

There are gray shades in life. Sometimes we have to lie, we have to do things for ourselves even though our parents dont agree with them. Just because you lied about something doesnt make it wrong. It is really hard in our culture to be ourselves as women and do with our lives wat we please. This is evident "in many Mediterranean and African cultures, the husband's family may take revenge through violent punishments and banishment of the bride because the "non-virgin" bride "shamed" them. Among the Yungar people of Australia, girls without the hymen before marriage were starved, tortured, or even killed. In Arab countries, the "non-virgin" brides may be killed by her brothers, uncles, or even fathers. The perpetrators often escape prosecution due to the strong customs that justify such murders" (2) Our customs are tough. In Pakistan there are honor killings in which your family members can kill you for dishonoring them by having sex. When there are extremities like that wat should these women do should they simply accept this unfairness that they are not allowed to live their own lives or should they go about living their lives as they please. If a woman chooses to have sex with a man should she have to tell the truth even if it means death, and even if this woman were brave enough to accept her death should her family suffer because of her decisions. Our culture nothing is the individual's decision our families are always with us which is great, but should thy be punished like a woman's sisters not getting married or getting divorced because she had sex. When there are such unfair and extreme consequences, lying is a lot more acceptable because it is human to want to protect yourself and those you love and still do the things your heart desires. Just because someone lied doesn't mean they're wrong sometimes people lie to spare other people's feelings. I would never tell my parents anything that would break their heart, simply because i love them. My friend wears short and skirts and hides it from her parents I dont think there is anything wrong with wearing shorts or skirts but i dont say that to my parents because i know they disagree and i want to spare their feelings not because i think i am wrong or my friend is wrong.

(1)http://in.rediff.com/getahead/2005/mar/23youth.htm

(2)http://64.233.187.104/searchq=cache:FiKrTyUCKS4J:www.ocf. berkeley.edu/~issues/fall98/hymenrep.html+virginity+countrie s+costs&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3

P.S. I didnt discuss your comments about difference of opinions because i felt that they didnt pertain to the debate though i agree we have our own opinions and we have a right to them.

Originally posted by: mkzara

I understand that you were speaking of the eastern culture, but you have to understand that our culture is changing as well. People are more open minded about PMS and relationships then they once were. In the old days, love marriage was a sort of insult to your family and friends but now it is accepted, the same way people are learning that relationships and PMS are not harmful and dont have disastrous effects if one is responsible and careful about them. I dont know which devastating effects you speak of and how it could cause any problems if people are reasonable. I understand that there are people like that girl's fiance who are not reasonable about things like one's past but there are fools in every time. I know there are tons of people who won't let their daughters wear jeans because it is westernization and their daughters will go wild if they start dressing like "whores".

YES,times are changing...But was "love" considered an insult in olden days...No...Parents were against out of caste/class love marriages,but it wasnt considered an insult...My grandparents were childhood sweethearts,and their parents never considered it as an insult of any sort ....Love was never that much of an insult,as much as a pregnancy out of a wedlock was.....The reason as to why people are against PMS is because more than anything,it poses several risks....I'll elucidate more about that later....Coming to clothes,its a misconception prevalant among the westerners that the Indian parents subjugate their kids which is not the real picture....😕...Some children CHOOSE not to wear certain clothes,either because they werer brought up that way or because they arent allowed to...BUT,no one calls  jeans clas girl a whore😕...."tons of people" is an exaggeration,some are not quite comfortable wearing a pair of jeans,and some arent allowed..but whatever might be the case,no girl who dresses in a modern way is called a whore....😊...i'm sure my dyed in the wool relatives dont call me one,simply because I wear a pair of jeans and tees

 

Originally posted by: mkzara

I am not looking at PMS through rose tinted glasses but i dont see any harmful effects besides the physical which can be minimized through proper precautions.

 

he devastations caused by PMS.....lets see...

1)general hazards

In india,as I said,its not something that is accepted....thus people who take the plunge,do it in the sly.....Now,the entire concept of  single parenting isnt quite accepted in India.....Is  it ( referring to single parenting) wrong??????,NO..but is it accepted...NO....can we change the entire society overnight....NO...thus for all practical purposes,single parenting and bearing kids out of a wedlock isnt the most advisable thing to do....Does the child get the father's surname...No....Is the child recognized well among all sections of the society...Quite not....

 

Health hazards....

STD's(sexually transmitted diseases)...Aids.....Do the people who engage in PMS get themselves tested regularly(How many would even want to get themselves tested in the first place???So many fear🤢,fear that their parents or their acquaintances might spot them at a hospital and scrutinize them....and Thus never get themselves tested)???Do they take all necessary precautions....sometimes no(as some find it quite an embarrassement🤢 to go to a shop a pick up a condom)..and I'm talking out of first hand experience,seen many of my classmates having sex without precaution,very well knowing possible aftremaths.....A few minutes of passion can destroy one's life....The absolute best "cure", however, is PREVENTION (i.e., not getting the disease in the first place).Abstinence is the only foolproof way of avoiding a sexually transmitted disease (STD)

Originally posted by: mkzara

[QUOTE=mkzara]Buffie you said it yourself sex is not a western concept, it is a human concept and then you go and say that we shudn't accept it because its western and we shouldn't give up our culture. It also exists in India, people have just closed their eyes to it.

Yes,I said that the concept per se is a human concept....BUT,I never spoke anything about its acceptance....😉....Reiterating,sex is a human concept,but the outlook towards sex isnt a universal concept😛.....In the west,it isnt considered a taboo,nut in india,it isnt very advisable ...Is single parenting accepted in India...NO...Why is it that parents jawbone their kids for an abortion????.....Parents do wish the best for their children,parents want to see their kids MARRIED(talking about the indian society ofcourse),and a woman who has a kid out of a wedlock would find it difficult to get married.....PMS has always existed among the elite and among the outlaws...BUT,talking about middle class india,which constitutes the major percentage of the population...It has drastically gone up in the recent few years,especially nowadays young ones grow up in the society where television, movies (even Indian Movies) Music videos are full of sexual exposure. Sexual explicit magazine, po*nographic movies are freely available to the youth. And the internet has opened the door to po*nographic material to virtually everyone🤢. Regardless of the admonition against opposite sex, Asian youth is caught in dilemma as to what is right and what is wrong early on...and sometimes,in a moment of passion,they take the plunge,and then pay for it later.....

Originally posted by: mkzara

 Teenagers in india are having sex in large numbers simply because people are not willing to discuss this issue. If people talked to their kids rather than saying "sex is wrong and you'll go to hell if you do it before marriage" than teenagers might wait to have sex until they're ready.Premarital sex among 18- to 20-year-olds in metros is as high as 65.6 per cent amongst girls and 63.3 amongst boys.Extramarital affairs amongst married couples in the age group of 18 to 30 is as high as 10 to12 per cent. Post-30, this figure increases due to the onset of boredom in marriages.

YES,the figures are high,but you know what..saying that teens in india are having sex because they dont have awareness is not right....In the 10 standard biology books(whichever board one follows..ICSE,CBSE or the local boards),there is a separate chapter devoted to AIDS and the hazards of sex....and you know what,after learning those chapters for exams(then imagine how well a person would have learned about it),teens YET take the plunge sans the protection....FOR curiosity,for pleasure...Now would can that be justified??🤢