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\|/Doubts & Discussions about Lord Shiva Part-1\|/ (Page 102)

romi21 Goldie
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Posted: 28 June 2012 at 10:58am | IP Logged
Originally posted by varaali

Originally posted by .Vrish.

Anyway, particularly for my question about Kartikeya above - given what ultimately happened, why was it necessary for Mahadev to marry in order to give the Devas what they needed?



Shiva represents the Purusha aspect while Parvati represents the Prakriti. Any creation in this world requires the presence of both.Only then will the creation be stable, whole and positive. Now, no doubt both Shiva and Parvati had the capability to create living beings, independent of each other, but in order to uphold the laws of creation and abide by its principles, their joint presence was required to produce Kartikeya.

In the case of beings which were created by Shiva, independent of Parvati, ( Andhakasur and Planet Mars-  OTOH), they were not complete beings. One was created blind with asuric tendencies while the other was dispatched to be a planet in the solar system. 

Even in the case of Ganesh, whom Parvati created w/o Shiva's help (hence his name Vi- nayak), the end result was disastrous and only when Shiva got to play his role (i.e fixing Ganesh's head), did Parvati get her son back. So, it is only when the Male and Female energies, the yin and the yang, the Purusha and the Prakriti, come together can creation take place.

In case of Kartikeya, Parvati is Shiva's Shakti and hence embedded in him. The marriage of Mahadeva and Parvati itself symbolizes the merger of Shiva and Shakti. When their hands were joined in front of the fire, they became One. Hence they don't have to rely on any other physical action to create an offspring. If Shiva was able to create the sparks that ultimately produced Kartikeya, he could do so, because Parvati's Shakti was already within him.

And most importantly, it is Parvati who gives Kartikeya the Vel (Spear/ lance) with which he ultimately kills Surapadman. ( I know, the ACK has Shiva giving  it, but the comic is wrong)

Truly & almost perfectly said... why almost coz.. These are all god's mysterious doing...the truth only he knows...

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Sups230695paras99pnars.Vrish.vanadhi

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Posted: 28 June 2012 at 11:03am | IP Logged
this prompts me to ask what could be a somewhat controversial question..

Should we even ask questions of these texts based on our understanding of history, science and logic?




Edited by narangi_77 - 28 June 2012 at 11:07am

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Posted: 28 June 2012 at 11:17am | IP Logged
^^^ Yes & No

Questions like how can either Shiva or Parvati create beings themselves, I don't ask - I assume that being deities, they can.  The question I asked was more of 'Why did Shiva need Parvati & marriage if in the end, he could create something just by himself'?  It was not a whether s/he could do it, but rather, why did the devas choose such a long & circuitious route if in the end, Shiva was going to do it himself.

Varaali

The explanation on Ganesh - in the Ganesh ACK, after Shiva beheaded him, while the Devas & Ganas were dancing & rejoicing, Shiva himself was worried.  He noted that this kid had been created by Parvati, and therefore, he was Shiva's son as well, even though he had no role in creating him.  And here, Manu Smriti rules don't apply - they applied only for humans, but never for the deities, or even the devas.

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kkr531 Senior Member
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Posted: 28 June 2012 at 11:19am | IP Logged
Originally posted by narangi_77

this prompts me to ask what could be a somewhat controversial question..

Should we ask questions of these texts based on our understanding of history, science and logic?



Puranas are pure myth with may be 20% historical quotient, that too interleaved  among the layers.
puranas are respected and accepted because they are endorsed by so many faithful who in order to emotionally connect with gods attribute many human kind of actions and stories to god.

every story has some emotion attached to it. for example there is no proper uterine birth of skanda and ganesh because devotees considered mata to be eternal virgin and they do not want her to loose that status.
so they portrayed her to have given birth to ganesha  and kartikeya in unusual way.

but if you as bhakt of mahadev and mata aadishakti want skanda to be real proper son of the both, as long as you want such depiction purely in order to connect more with deities, you can always do that.

there is no blasphemy in doing or thinking like that you can always manufacture your own stories as long as you do it with right intention. after all purpose of all these stories is to bring devotees more closer to god.

the most popular of them will survive. thats how even puranas came into being.

instead of asking questions you can always mold the divine story according to your needs ad logic.

regards
Krishna

 



Edited by kkr531 - 28 June 2012 at 11:21am

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Posted: 28 June 2012 at 11:24am | IP Logged
Originally posted by .Vrish.

^^^ Yes & No

Questions like how can either Shiva or Parvati create beings themselves, I don't ask - I assume that being deities, they can.  The question I asked was more of 'Why did Shiva need Parvati & marriage if in the end, he could create something just by himself'?  It was not a whether s/he could do it, but rather, why did the devas choose such a long & circuitious route if in the end, Shiva was going to do it himself.



I think I tried to explain this. The marriage was needed b'cos Parvati's shakti had to join with Shiva's in order to create Kartik. It may have appeared that Shiva was doing it himself, but Parvati's shakti had already immersed itself into Shiva's. So te sparks which emanated out of Shiva's head had both the Shiva tatva and the Shakti tatva

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Vibhishna Goldie
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Posted: 28 June 2012 at 12:36pm | IP Logged
Adding to what Varaali had explained, the story I read goes on like this:


After Shiva and Parvati's wedding, the Devas did wait for a while for a son to be born to them. When Surapadma's tortures became too much for them to bear, they pleaded to Lord Shiva for help. Lord Shiva in turn promised them that a son will be born to them soon. Saying this, He looked at Parvati with love and the heat of his passion gave rise to 6 sparks. Some versions say that Shiva assumed a 6-headed form and from each third eye, a spark of flame came out. These sparks were given to Agni. The heat of Shiva's passion was so strong that the whole Universe trembled. Even Parvati was frightened and inched away from Him. As she staggered away from Shiva, she tripped (did not fall), and her anklets which contained 9 varieties of gemstones split and scattered the gems on the snow. (Another version adds another incident - Seeing these events, the Devas were happy. Looking at them Parvati was angry and cursed them that they won't have anyone to inherit their assets.)

The scattered gemstones reflected Parvati's beautiful form. From these 9 varieties of gemstones, 9 maidens came forth. Each one were of the same colour as the gemstone they appeared from and were reflections of Parvati (I think they mean each one looked exactly like a coloured version of Parvati. Another version says, they were beautiful maidens and leaves it at that.). Shiva looked at these maidens with passion and these 9 carried a son each as a result. Parvati was angered at this since they got the chance she was supposed to have and cursed them saying that when the children are due, they wont be born but will continue to live inside their wombs. On hearing the curse, the 9 women sweated profusely, and from the sweat drops there appeared 1 lakh warriors bearing Trisula and shields. They became an army who were later at the disposal of the 9 war chiefs of Skanda. It was said that these 9 maidens then lived in Kailash and served Parvati.

When the time was due for these 9 kids to be born, the 9 women suffered in pain due to Parvati's curse. Shiva seeing their suffering, asked Parvati to liberate them from their misery. Some versions say that the 9 women themselves begged Parvati to liberate them from their pain. Taking pity on them, Parvati blessed them that the kids will be born. A son was born to each of the maidens in the same colour of their mothers. These 9 warriors became the 9 generals of Skanda in His expedition against Surapadma - the eldest of them was Veerabahu.

Veerabahu was born to Ratnavalli who appeared from Ratnam or Manikkam (Ruby, I think).
Veerakesari was born to Taharallavalli who appeared from the Pearl.
Veeramahendra was born to Paushavalli who appeared from the Pusparaaha (Yellow Sapphire).
Veeramahesvara was born to Gomedha Tilaka who appeared from Gomedhaham (Hessonite).
Veerapurandhara was born to Vaiduriyavalli who appeared from Viduriyam (Cat's Eye).
Veerarakshasa was born to Vajravalli who appeared from the Diamond.
Veeramaarthanda was born to Marakathavalli who appeared from Marakatham (Emerald).
Veerandhaha was born to Pavazhavalli who appeared from Pavazham (Red Coral).
Veeradheera was born to Neelavalli who appeared from Neelam (Blue Sapphire).

All of them were accepted as Shiva's (and Parvati's) sons.


As for Ganesha, Parvati wouldn't have created him if Shiva had not intruded.

Our scriptures seem to enforce the fact that even a God cannot create everything by Himself/Herself.

Brahma needed Saraswati for creation and Shiva needed Parvati for his son to appear. Shiva and Parvati were capable of creating valiant warriors of their own - like Veerabadhra, Kaalabhairava, Badhrakaali, etc. but none of them are known as their sons or daughters. They are a form of the God who created them but not their children.


Vrish, I too had similar doubts since the Devas were praying for a son to be born to Parvati and Shiva. In the end they got what they wanted but not exactly how they wanted. Geek




Edited by Vibhishna - 28 June 2012 at 12:42pm

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Posted: 28 June 2012 at 12:42pm | IP Logged
@Vibhishna

Thats a remarkable story: Can you give us the source please? Thanks!
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Posted: 28 June 2012 at 12:59pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by narangi_77

@Vibhishna

Thats a remarkable story: Can you give us the source please? Thanks!


Kandha Puranam, the Tamil Version of Skanda Purana, written by Kacheeyappa Sivachariyaar.

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