What is justified and what is not?

Hello guys,
Watching today's episode made me think of an issue we had been debating in our Feminism class the other day. I really want to hear your views on this:

1. A few days back there was a hospital scene and Jagya had shouted at Gauri for not cooking proper food. Gauri had packed some sandwiches for their night duty and Jagya was majorly disappointed for the lack of Gauri's housekeeping skills. We all hated Jagya for shouting at Gauri and called him an MCP.

2. Yesterday, Jagya got some nice breakfast for Gauri and Gauri rejected it promptly, hurting Jagya's feelings. Incidentally, Jagya had done the same thing with Anandi and hurt her feelings. We had found that behavior of his inexcusable and hated him for hurting Anandi like that. However, did we find Gauri's behavior equally offensive?

3. Today, Gauri threw a huge showdown regarding the clothes. Jagya admitted his mistake and kept his cool, but Gauri went on blasting him, in spite of him saying that he will get the clothes right away. How many of us found that behavior offensive? What would have been our reaction if it was Jagya who had shouted on Gauri regarding housework? Wouldn't we call him an MCP?

Lets forget all the baggage that Jagya and Gauri carry in the context of their past and Anandi. Lets just take Jagya and Gauri as a normal, young couple, both working in hectic jobs and trying to manage the house without much help. Working out a marriage, especially, in such circumstances need a lot of patience and effort from both partners. Interestingly enough, I have seen many of my friends and myself, losing our temper the way Gauri did today, even with co-operative husbands. We blow it when the husbands fail in their tasks, but would hate it if our husbands do the same. Immediately, it will be an issue of them being an MCP.😆

And that's precisely my question:
1. Do we, as modern, progressive women, take certain things for granted and behave in a certain way without consequences, though we won't tolerate the same behavior from the men?
2. Did feminism breed a skewed concept of political righteousness where women are excused of certain things that men are not allowed in a liberal, progressive context?
3. Should we re-consider the traditional concepts of patience, compassion, forgiveness, compromise which---since they were long associated with womanhood---are now almost sinful words for women?
4. Do we need to strike a balance and modify the flaws of radical feminism for a more collaborative feminism?

What do you think? 😉 We had such a fierce debate in our class and I really want to hear what you guys think? Lets do some self introspection😉 I am not talking about the rural, patriarchal, regressive families that are oppressive for women. I am talking about these issues in the context of a progressive, liberal family where both the man and the woman are economically independent and share the same liberties.

Disclaimer: Please do not treat this topic as the much hackneyed debate between supporting Gauri-Anandi-Jagya. I mentioned Gauri and Jagya just as examples, the point is to discuss what happens in larger society in terms of a man-woman relationship and why is it that some men feel oppressed in marriage 😉😆

Edited by woman11 - 12 years ago

Well, it would be a problem if either party is not carrying their weight in the partnership. Gauri appears to be upset over not keeping with his share of responsibilities, and not because jagya can't do housework. I haven't seen the episode, so my interpreation of your words.

Should we re-consider the traditional concepts of patience, compassion, forgiveness, compromise which---since they were long associated with womanhood---are now almost sinful words for women?
I don't think so, and don't believe they are "sinful words for women". True that such qualities are associated with women more than men...perhaps, because of role of women in history/past...but the concepts themselves are not flawed, and should be cultivated in both men and women. What is flawed is our association of concepts to one gender over the other...both concepts and our association of gender to concept is a human construct. It's the latter human construct that is flawed in my opinion.

A good topic Antara.

As i look at it, marriage is a constant give and take. The expectations and acceptation of roles mainly depend on the understanding between the couple. I can give you my example coz that's what I can best relate to. There are certain things which my husband can do better than me and vice versa. So we have an understanding that each of us respectively takes care of that job. There are many such chores both in the house and outside the house which we do as per our time schedule.

What I am really aiming to emphasize here is that as far as possible we do not get into a competition or for that matter keep and account of who does more than the other. Whatever chores whether in the house or outside the house is after all our job together so it doesn't make a difference who does it. There are times when I am busy and he takes care of stuff and vice versa. We give each other's career and life equal importance coz at the end of the day what we both do together is how our life is going to shape. i guess the most important thing in any relationship is communication. Its always best to express exactly how you feel weather good or bad. This will give a clear indication as to what one likes and what they dislike. Not expressing the bad will push it into the subconscious and may come out as an outburst at some point of time like what happened in Gauri's and Jagya's case today.

There are a few women I know who consider themselves to be too modern to do any household work like cooking and cleaning and put the whole pressure on their husbands. In a married relationship why should there be any dignity of labor in the first place? Why consider yourself to be over and above all these household chores. Its your house after all and you also live in it. Ego and trying to prove yourself better than your partner can be the biggest deterrents in a marriage. Both man and woman do have equal rights in a marriage and these rights also come with equal duties. Why always refresh our minds of our rights and push our duties aside? At the end of the day one married the person who they loved so if one does something more for his/her partner, is that going to harm one in any way?
Edited by andv - 12 years ago

Excellent replies persistence.

Even I believe the same thing. There are gender expectations associated with certain tasks and concepts and failure to do so can cause serious issues. But the point is, things are not this simplified always. Maybe Jagya expected Gauri to cook because of his own conditioning in a patriarchal family, but imagine a situation like this. Suppose it's the wife's turn to cook and she cooks something paltry or insufficient-------if the husband complains, it becomes as issue of chauvinism and an insensitive husband. But suppose it's the husband's turn to cook and he cooks something equally bad and the wife complains, ignoring how the husband will feel. Will that justify the wife's actions just because society doesn't expect men to cook and hence it's not a gender issue? I have seen many cases where feminist progressiveness have been misused and misconstrued to give rise to another form of power hierarchy, only this time it is the woman who has the upper hand. The point is power inequality of any form is unacceptable, whether be it the man or the woman, and it is even more unfortunate if the inconsistency is built on an ideology that seeks to correct the imbalance.
I personally think we should use the privileges granted by feminism with judiciousness, keeping a careful eye that it doesn't lead to an alternative form of imbalance. "With great power comes great responsibility" 😊. And sometimes, it is the misuse of certain feminist rights, often in a reactionary way, that often put off sections of society from embracing and practicing feminism more enthusiastically. Feminism isn't about paying it back to men or taking an upper hand over them, feminism seeks to undo the wrong and put the man and the woman on an equal standing where both share equal rights. 

Edited by woman11 - 12 years ago

Originally posted by: andv

A good topic Antara.
There are a few women I know who consider themselves to be too modern to do any household work like cooking and cleaning and put the whole pressure on their husbands. In a married relationship why should there be any dignity of labor in the first place? Why consider yourself to be over and above all these household chores. Its your house after all and you also live in it. Ego and trying to prove yourself better than your partner can be the biggest deterrents in a marriage. Both man and woman do have equal rights in a marriage and these rights also come with equal duties. Why always refresh our minds of our rights and push our duties aside? At the end of the day one married the person who they loved so if one does something more for his/her partner, is that going to harm one in any way?

Love your reply Anitha👏. Absolutely agree on the point of equal partnership and co-operation. And that's precisely why I think both the partners should be considerate and patient to each other. Jagya and Gauri are both responsible for their household chores and both should be patient to each other's failings in completing them. As much as I find it offensive for Jagya to shout at Gauri for not cooking well, Gauri's OTT reaction at Jagya's failing today, in spite of Jagya ready to rectify his mistake, was a turn off.
 

        I bet this is gonna b THE BEST TOPIC ever in the history of the forums.ThanQ 4 ur sensibility in bringing out the life's essentials thru eternal facts.

          In fact,every custom & tradition is the outcome of time tested practices relevant to that context comprising of social setup,means of living,etc.,Hence there's no point in judging their validity for all times...as they are bound to change just as the life style changes...

               FORGET EVERY THING...JUST REMEMBER THE LIFE's GOAL OF HAPPINESS..AS EVERY THING MUST MOVE TOWARDS THAT END.AFTER A LOT OF EXPERIMENTATION WE FIND THAT IT IS A COLLECTIVE PROPERTY RATHER THAN AN INDIVIDUAL ONE.

           As long as we believe in the collective happiness, we WILL be happy.As long as we remember that we came here to enjoy the life with all it's variety,we forget n forgive every thing n every one to that extent that we may live in happiness.           

    We learn many things in joint family as it is a mini society,as it teaches the sharing without dividing,caring without bearing,sacrificing without losing,fighting without getting hurt,because every member believes in individual happiness next to collective happiness NEVER at the cost of it.The same logic applies every where..in the society as,it is a joint family at macro level.

        Whether it is husband or wife or boss,as long as we believe in our strength we can enjoy the game without fear of loss.For husband or wife, responsibility and right depends on the might of commitment with love.As long as we love to serve,every thing follows us provided that we must learn to treat cow as a cow & donkey as a donkey.

            If every one knows your heart, where's chance of conflict?

             So we must take time to introspect to clarify our stand as it solves 100 riddles.

           So we do what all that we can do with all the limitations,& express our inability to do the things we can not do..there will never be a question of doing or not doing as long as we are clear..frustration & all such emotions are context based & normally doesn't last long unless we add fuel to the fire..
We can't convey our stand in a hot environment..there's time for every thing...

          J n G are young couple & certainly need some time 2 learn things till they reach an equilibrium.
Edited by sreevask - 12 years ago

There are many men whom r just lazy to do or help household works. Its not their attitude problem but just laziness.

@Antara, I have no intentions of starting a JG war here but just wanted to continue our discussion with the example of a young couple like J and G. In the context of mutual understanding and cooperation: That's where maturity and love for each other comes in. Maturity will help you analyze the situation and the behavior of your partner while keeping your head firmly on your shoulders and mutual love and respect will not make you feel stressed in case you happen to do something a little more than the other.Infact that thought would not cross your mind either. Love cannot be measured by how many gifts your partner gave you or if he proposed to you in a dramatic fashion, or by just looking eye to eye and saying the three words. Although that may also be needed but its not the real measure of the strength of your relationship in my opinion. How much of each other do you understand and how much you can do for the other without feeling pressurized is what will make your marriage smooth. Its these little things in day to day living that actually gives you the value of your love for each other.  

I agree I did not like J shouting at G nor did I like G's behaviour today. I did mention the same in my post too in the written update post. Those kinds of fights I feel are very kiddish. Fortunately or unfortunately they both are of the same temperament. Both are immature, very impulsive, hot tempered, not ready to listen to what the other has to say and at the same time egoistic. This may be true for many other young couples in real life too but probably with time they may change and understand the realities of life. That's also one of the reasons I wanted J and G to fend for themselves and understand how difficult life can get when you are out of that comforted shell of your parent's financial support. J would have understood the realities of life and may just have valued his family a little more. but well the CVs have other ideas...

Originally posted by: woman11

Hello guys,
Watching today's episode made me think of an issue we had been debating in our Feminism class the other day. I really want to hear your views on this:

1. A few days back there was a hospital scene and Jagya had shouted at Gauri for not cooking proper food. Gauri had packed some sandwiches for their night duty and Jagya was majorly disappointed for the lack of Gauri's housekeeping skills. We all hated Jagya for shouting at Gauri and called him an MCP.

2. Yesterday, Jagya got some nice breakfast for Gauri and Gauri rejected it promptly, hurting Jagya's feelings. Incidentally, Jagya had done the same thing with Anandi and hurt her feelings. We had found that behavior of his inexcusable and hated him for hurting Anandi like that. However, did we find Gauri's behavior equally offensive?