The Bad Boys & Girls Club

return_to_hades IF-Sizzlerz

Joined: 18 January 2006
Posts: 24841

Posted: 17 May 2011 at 11:27pm | IP Logged
As the title suggests, this post is not about pleasantries. Its about the folks who tend to lack it. The so called arrogant, conceited self consumed people. Its all about the bad boys and girls, the public tends to hate. Its all about the qualities not many admire, but ought to give a second thought to.

The lead female in one of America's most popular sitcoms is not a nice person at all. She is arrogant, conceited, extremely selfish and self centered, constantly trying to get the world to revolve around her. She is convinced she has all the makings of a great star and expects to be treated like one. One would think that she ought to be the vamp or bad one of sorts. However, Rachel Berry of Glee! is undoubtedly one of the leading stars and televisions most popular characters. After all people are not one dimensional, they are multi-faceted - on the other side you have passion, hard work, desire, talent, and actually a really nice person outside the realm of show choir. Thats why not just fans but even her classmates at McKinley high may get annoyed, get upset, get into spats with her, but still love her.

Whats the point of this all?

Well how do we decide who is the best in their line of work? Who ought to be the best chef, singer or dancer in a contest? What factors do we consider? Skills, techniques, talent, knowledge, its usually the fundamentals that matter.

What about humility, sincerity, charm, friendliness?

The truth is a lot of gosh darned people have those qualities, but they don't have much else to write about. These are positive qualities that make good human beings or nice people, but they don't necessarily amount to the best of the best. It would be great if people could be both, but lack of either does not negate the other. Lacking talent does not mean that people are not lovely humans. Likewise being flawed and sometimes not so nice human beings does not mean that one is not talented.

Unfortunately, in terms of reality television it seems that despite being 'talent' shows the technical skill sets tend to be become a backdrop to the soft skills. Much discussion goes into who is humble and who is arrogant? Who was sporting and who was bitter? Who was nice and who was rude? We just kid ourselves into believing that we are trying to figure out who is the most talented, when in reality we are just trying to vote on some out of place Miss or Master Congeniality contest.

Does not always have to be the case though. We can just shove the worldly niceties if we wish to and admire raw uncut talent.

Lets meet Marcel Vigneron.

As you can see Marcel is an a$$hole and a douchebag. He trash talked and bitched at contestants, he argued with judges. He could be a downright arrogant prick at times. I honestly cannot stand Marcel, because he was such a jerk and always wished him to get booted from Top Chef. Contestants and viewers labeled him a$$hole.

But opinions on personalities aside, even I cannot deny that Marcel is one heck of a gutsy, innovative chef who really has a unique panache for new creations, tastes and flavors. That is why he was able to get ahead of far "nicer" people and lost out in All-Stars over technicality. That is why it is he who got a new television show for his culinary style. Contestants never dismissed him, judges never dismissed him, and dozens of viewers admired him. Anyone who dismissed Marcel for being a jerk or thought him less deserving of culinary honors because of his behavior probably has no idea about cuisine.

One does not always have to be so abrasive though. Sometimes people are just misunderstood like Maks from Dancing With The Stars. Maks is one of the most outspoken, most vocal professionals of the show. He speaks his mind no holds barred.

For example he openly claimed to not care about contestant Bristol Palin and blatantly attributed her votes to her mother's political fan base.

He gave a lot more harsher criticism on Palin's dancing in several interviews and expressed a lot more displeasure and dissent in private circles. Unlike Marcel who is a wild child, a longer professional career has perhaps taught Maks to mind his language and avoid trash talk. More importantly the art of avoiding stronger public dissent - lest he be judged professionally for his opinions on others abilities. Yet there is still a sense of refreshing honesty, that he is not going to fake or sugar coat his views just to make nice to people.

But its not contestants. Maks has his harsh opinions on judges, judgment and the channel as well. If he feels judges have been unfair or disagrees with their opinion - no matter how senior they are, no matter what the shows format, no matter what - he expresses his disagreement.

And he's talked back to judges on the show several times. He also gets into several arguments with the celebrities he works with as well. However, its not arrogance, superiority or conceit that drive him. Unfortunately, anytime a person talks back to seniors, accuses people of unfairness people immediately assume that they are arrogant people who should be thought less of. However, people often forget passion, the heightened emotions of being in love with something, that there are somethings people will fight for no matter what.

As Maks explained his attitude and views on judges in his blog

My Arrogance- I am pretty passionate and also pretty blunt.  I think my passion and straight response gets sometimes mistaken for arrogance.  I may be strong in my belief.  Maybe that is tough for some people. But I have learned to live a life in black and white, with little shades of gray.  Like in dancing, there is a right way and a wrong way.  There is no middle ground. I generally am passionate about perfection and doing things the right way.  I give my point of view as I see it.  I do not say I am more right than anyone.  But it is what I believe.  I don't mean to be rude or abrasive.  But my passion drives me and I believe being passionate about your work is important.  It is unfortunate if that my passion is mistaken for something negative.  My partners, friends and families know where I come from. I feel strongly and I express myself that way but arrogance assumes I think I am better than the rest. I don't.  I am no different than anyone else. I just am strong in my opinion.  

My attitude/Carrie Ann/Judges- If my attitude jeopardized Brandy, then I apologize for that and  I feel just terrible for Brandy.  The show shouldn't be about what I think or feel or how I teach or choreograph.  This show should be about the celebrity contestants that put a tremendous amount of effort into working to learn how to dance and perform in dancesport.  My argument with Carrie Ann was about that.  Don't judge Brandy for my choreography or how I trained her.  That is not Brandy's fault.  Ultimately, she should have been judged for her technique, effort, and her dancing in comparison to the others.

Sometimes the viewers didn't see the other side.  The struggle, the worry, the emotions she did go through just like the other celebrities on there.  That is the magic of video editing and I can't control what they choose to show you.  I've mentioned that before as well.

But I apologize to Brandy,  if my passion about putting the focus where it belonged caused more an issue than my real intent.  Ultimately, I am a choreographer, an instructor, and her partner.  I wholeheartedly wanted to make it to the finals because Brandy, in my opinion, truly deserved to be there.  If this competition were about me, I would still be competing against dancers of equal skill.  But I was not competing.  Brandy was.  And she was an amazing partner and dancer and in my opinion, the best this season.

What can I say but that I am beyond disappointed that her talent, her skill, her improvement, her technique seemed to be overlooked or undervalued in comparison to other competitors each week.  Maybe some of you will disagree. Maybe some of you feel good about certain celebrities over others.  That is not what I, as her partner and coach, am concerned with.  I pushed her to bring the best she could each week.  I was hard on her.  I trained with her daily about her movement, her technique, her footwork, her body posture.  It was tough, frustrating, hard, a work out.  And I pushed for her to give me perfection.  She did, btw.  I just wish this is where the focus should have remained with the voters.

I'm not a Maks fan. In fact Derek Hough is the one I believe to be the most talented, versatile and best choreographer followed by Mark Ballas for his ability to push the envelope. I always want Derek to win with Mark being second choice. I could have taken offense that Maks criticism of Palin was also directed at Mark. I could have taken offense that Maks accusations against the judges and the format meant that one of my favorites Mark was undeserving of the finals. But usually common sense rules that criticism is not always meant to be taken as offense. Common sense would show that Brandi/Maks were better and that Mark/Bristol should have gone long time ago. Its sad when favorites overrule common sense and turn criticism to offense. In fact this season made me admire Maks more and more as a dancer and a professional for his genuine passion for dance and raw honesty. I admire him for being the bad boy he is. He is not faking sincerity or humility so that he can win hearts and votes, his passion is dance, he has his beliefs about dance and he will always speak up for what he is passionate about. Its not arrogance, its passion.

All the bad boys and girls perhaps just need a few more years of professional experience to grow up and express themselves better and let their passions shine. They will never cease being the arrogant ones or the lesser ones, they will never cease being misunderstood, or having talent discredited over personality. However, they will win hearts where it matters. Just as Maks is appreciated not just by fans or his celebrity partners, but is actually loved and supported by his professional peers including peers who are far more senior to him, and more accomplished then him because they know that Maks heart is not for fans or accolades but remaining true to his profession - dance.

So after all that chatter, this thread is dedicated to the bad boys and girls. There is no room for humility, charm and all the nauseous niceties. This thread is for the arrogant, the abrasive, the unabashed, uncensored - I'll speak my heart and guts out bad boys and girls. Screw the nice boys and girls, they can be in their congeniality club. If you love a celebrity or contestant who is a bit self absorbed, selfish or much to vocal with judges and contestants than this is the place for you. Shout out and express your love for the ones others love to hate. Shout out hoping that someday talent trumps all. Shout out someday that they learn to channel their passions better and perhaps winback the hearts of some dissidents. This is one thread where the worst bashing is the best loving hugs and kisses ever.

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nikitagmc IF-Sizzlerz

Joined: 01 January 2009
Posts: 16164

Posted: 18 May 2011 at 2:52am | IP Logged
Thankyou very much for this thread RTH! I've always loved your posts and this one proved to be no exception. Thank you very much indeed. And I completely agree with what you said.

When one is passionate about something, when one has worked hard for something, then it is very obvious that one feels disappointed and upset when they feel their efforts have been overlooked. They lash out sometimes. Self-control is the best and it is what we aim for- but it is not everyone's cup of tea and that too in 'trying' circumstances. It does not necessarily mean that people lacking it for once become bad. They are humans, and such things happen with everyone sometimes. I am not justifying it, but I'm just saying it happens with everyone. To brand them good or bad cos of this ONE incident is so NOT FAIR in my honest opinion. Especially in reality shows. Who  are we to know how much has been edited out, and what exactly went behind cameras??? But what I feel is even worse than that is -- when their behavior makes people disregard their talent and hard work.

I have seen such hate on many reality shows, for Siddhesh and others, but the one in which I personally got crazy trying to defend and explain was Ankita Lokhande in Jhalak Dikhla Jaa 4. I had followed all her interviews since two years and knew well that she was a blunt person, she spoke her mind and never believed in buttering up the judges, and as such her somewhat rude tone and lashing back when she got eliminated did not really astonish me- in a moment of breakdown after coming so close to the finals, I was not surprised to see her behave that way. Add to it the fact that her grievances, though imparted in a bitter tone were actually genuine- one of the participants had been surviving solely on the basis of vote bank giving inferior performances every week (whereas she herself had scored second highest points the week before) and the other had been chosen over her in faceoff round inspite of the fact that her performance had ONLY lifts (judges had earlier said that too much of lifts spoilt dances and had even deducted marks for them.) She was highly praised for her face off performance, judges said nothing negative about it, but still chose the other person.  (Later we all discussed in the forum and most agreed Ankita's performance had been better, the other pair actually looked unprepared. Who knows Anki thought so too? )

As such, thinking from her POV, she would have obviously felt it was unfair. Imagine a person working 16 hours for a daily soap, and slogging from 10 to 2 at night for dance rehearsals, managing with barely four hours of sleep- and then being eliminated in this manner. Blunt as she was, she burst up when prodded. And everyone burst up too about how they 'HATED' her, she was a sore loser and blah blah blah. Fine- but for a moment- don't just slap the child who wails, look at the pinch behind the wails and then try and evaluate. It is one thing to disapprove of one's behavior and one thing to start hating them for it.

This one incident totally branded Ankita as the worst on the show, inspite of the fact that she was one of the best and most graceful dancers in the show who showed a remarkable improvement inspite of an average choreographer. Everyone forgot that she was one who had tried to push the enevelope with each performance, whether it be doing Rajasthani folk stunts or a completely classical Kathak performance. All her sportsmanship in the past- not taking offence at Mahi's mimicry of her which tried to portray her a cocky, arrogant creature (why Mahi did such a negative mimicry no one considered), accepting judges scores happily even if they were low, not taking offence when her choreographer made excuses saying she did not give devote time to rehearsals- rather encouraging him to do better, and apologising to judges on his behalf, supporting her BF even though he was a competitor and more likely to win than her, not taking offence when she was eliminated two times-- everything was forgotten. 

She took both her eliminations sportingly. In fact, she did not show any unpleasant behavior until the point when she was SPECIFICALLY ASKED by Sony - What do you think about your elimination- was it fair, had you expected it"- to which she bluntly and frankly (and in a bitter twang) replied that---- "Nahi maine nahi expect kiya tha kyunki Mahi mujhse scores mein kahin neeche thee (which is true) but it seems she is most popular and the best, aur judges to Salman Yana ko face off mein favour karte hi hai maybe kyunki unhe lifts and stretches pasand hain which is not my style..."

(The question here is also WHY were no other contestants asked such questions and WHY were they never interviewed in this manner. In fact, a point to note here is that the channel subtly highlighted her dominating and bossy nature even in humour. Ankita paid no attention and instead openly admitted laughingly that she loved bossing her BF and her choreographer- everyone laughed it away at that time and criticised her for it later.)

Again, I DO NOT say her behavior was JUSTIFIED in any way, she ought to have better control, and be more diplomatic, but it reaffirmed my faith in the fact that she was the most REAL person on that so-called-reality show. She was human, she was disappointed, when she was somewhat instigated, she lashed out. Later, she was her usual happy-go-lucky self, cheering her BF to win and enjoying her daily soap shooting and shopping and giving quirky, honest interviews. Few days later I read another honest interview of hers on some different topic.

And the end result of all this---????

Mahi, against whom she spoke, is STILL in the circle of her best friends. So is Ragini.

Madhuri laughed away at her irritations and bluntness.

Remo, Malaika took no offence and contrary to what others believed, DID NOT take out their ire at BF Sushant. In fact he was the topper the following week.

Malaika and Madhuri were actually hugging Sushant Ankita off camera at the JDJ finale. (This is visible at the end of JDJ finale, after Chang is declared winner. BTW, she congratulated Chang by hugging him before going to Sushant to console him.)

So basically, the actual people who were concerned and involved in this, were actually cool about everything, but everyone else who had simply watched them on TV, started loving to hate Ankita.

I don't. Ankita is no saint, and I'm no fangirl to defend her if she did wrong. She should have had better sense and not got carried away. There is really no justification for her behavior- it was wrong, period. You need to handle such situations better.

But it was HUMAN. It was REAL. It wasn't manipulated, it was GENUINE. And I could understand Ankita's behavior to an extent, how bad she must have felt at the supposed 'double unfairness' she went through, both by judges and audience, and lashed out when instigated. I don't support her behavior, but I can understand it.

 And the sad part in this mess was , her talent was TOTALLY ignored to the extent that everyone said- "Good she went away, Mahi should have stayed." (For those who don't know- Mahi was bottom of the scoresheet every week.) Hate posts against her continued throughout, mocking everything she did after that. 

The last straw was that people CELEBRATED Sushant's defeat (the BEST DANCER on the show by all standards) cos they hated his GF Ankita who was rooting for him, having said- "Band bajao sabka" in her usual boisterous style. Looking through an unbiased perspective, there was nothing contemptuous in what she said. Don't we say "Band baja dena sabka" to our close friends. But once an image has been formed, it kind of gets stuck.

The incident didn't make me hate Ankita in anyway, just as I've never hated Siddhesh, Jai or any other such person. All the same, as a fan, I really hope Ankita never takes a reality show again. At least not till she learns how to be tactful and diplomatic and till she brushes up her PR skills- cos without it, she will just garner more hatred through her honesty, that is what I saw during JDJ. I appreciate her honesty, and I hope she remains the same, but I also hope she learns to avoid such controversies. As of now, she is just NOT made for reality TV. No doubt she is very popular in her Telly circle, having a number of friends, but she really needs to improve if she intends to go further- especially in films. Not everyone is like Madhuri Dikshit to not take offence and laugh it off.

 With Sushant I don't mind if he takes up a reality show. He knows how to handle such issues very well. 

PS: Ankita wants to take professional training in dance now and I hope that this will make her a much more polished performer than what she is at present. May she climb higher ladders of success with the talent she has.Smile

Edited by nikitagmc - 18 May 2011 at 3:19am

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hindu4lyf IF-Rockerz

Joined: 25 March 2008
Posts: 9353

Posted: 18 May 2011 at 5:50am | IP Logged
Why are your posts always so awesome? You somehow manage to silence even the usual suspects who are usually way too eager to come and disagree with any little thing that is against their favourite contestant or any thought that they disagree with.

Rachel Berry of Glee is AWESOME! Watching her audition for the show reinforces that thought. The fact that she shares a couple of similarities with her character and is still so popular says a lot. How often do we look at a Hollywood actor and say 'omg she's so down to earth so I love her'. I mean yeah it's great that Angelina Jolie is helping so many unfortunate people all around the world but who would actually care a damn if she didn't act well or wasn't drop dead gorgeous? 

When we look at who the 'best chef' is then do we really care how humble he/she is while cooking? No. (speaking for myself here, I'm sure there will be people on this forum who will say yes for the heck of it lol) so why do we care so much about how down to earth a dancer is? 

If being stuck up, arrogant, abusive means I'm getting my money's worth and get to see some amazing dance performances then the rest doesn't matter much to me. DID is the only show I watch on Zee TV and I assure you subscription does not come cheap lol. I'm not in to Indian serials and I also don't enjoy watching SRGMP so watching good, entertaining dance performances is really the only reason why I have this channel and needless to say to drool over Terence Lewis too. :P

Tbh I think it's a bit of a cultural issue as well..we're always taught to worry about being humble and sticking to our roots (which are no doubt great qualities to have) but..

At the end of the day, talent WILL trump all!Thumbs Up
return_to_hades IF-Sizzlerz

Joined: 18 January 2006
Posts: 24841

Posted: 18 May 2011 at 11:29am | IP Logged

@Nikita – The only thing I remember from JDJ now is the Salyana vs. Sushita mahayudhs. LOL Unfortunately, 90% of the arguments were based on personalities and characters and very few actually focused on dancing. As you pointed out that tends to be the worst part of reality shows. People tend to judge talent over other things, where lesser dancers got ahead of Ankita because their personality was more 'favorable'. I honestly don't expect people to stop loving/hating people based on personalities, but the least we can do is be honest and not make up crap that its all purely on talent.


@H4L – Sometimes - I think we like stars being 'down to earth' to bring them closer to us, make us feel like equals. We know they are stars, we know they are great, good looking, talented – we say it ourselves. But if they state the same facts they are arrogant all of a sudden? I love Glee! for the types of characters they have. No one is almighty, perfect, self sacrificing, good and pure like some desi bahu. Some are divas, some are manipulators, some are trouble makers and some are total downright bitches. I'm actually loving the character of Santana these days too, even though she is nothing but a straight up bitch. Even Sue Sylvester is great.

mystic-writer92 Senior Member

Joined: 18 May 2011
Posts: 344

Posted: 18 May 2011 at 8:35pm | IP Logged
lawl, if you have to create a post in order to get across how bad you are...then, you're not really bad. in fact, you're a good girl. congrats! wait...wait a second; you're bad cause you did something like creating a post...
;] hope my post tells you how bad i am! lawl...
Dabulls23 IF-Stunnerz

Joined: 31 October 2005
Posts: 28594

Posted: 18 May 2011 at 10:54pm | IP Logged
Great topic Sarina..
I just came to say "I love Maks"  He is the bad boy of DWTS...What he did to Tom yesterday was so hillarious..
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