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Posted: 11 May 2011 at 9:47pm | IP Logged
^^ Hi Vrish! I think the prince who spoke up against fighting with Krishna is Jarasandh's son, the one who's good and who Krishna's happy to crown after Jarasandh is killed. Forget his name Ermm But it makes sense given his general attitude and what Shishupal tells him about "don't embarass your dad". The guy who starts speaking a minute and a half in is Shalva. Will have to check my tapes to identify the rest, most of their scenes didn't survive the brutal edits in the DVDs and after the 4 year hiatus (sob sob), some of their roles were recast. As for why no major rulers got killed during the 17 battles, does "vidhi ka vidhaan" ring a bell LOL

So onto the actual TellyBuzz article, I like you guys' idea of a series with made up of short self-contained tracks on each character, but if they choose figures about whom not much was written, they'll make most of it up from scratch... that can be hit or miss, sometimes they come up with something meaningful and sometimes it's like.. whaaattt Confused So, sticking to those who have bigger roles like Bhim and Arjun makes sense.
But what about this - a show that spans multiple texts/eras rather than being solely from one epic, with a common thread based on character traits. Like, for example, a show on each of the Panchakanyas. Something on some set of the Saptarishis. My personal favorite, a series on all the good guys of the raakshas jaati - Prahlaad, Virochan, Bali, Vibhishan, Trijata, Mandodari... anybody else?

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Posted: 11 May 2011 at 11:34pm | IP Logged
Jarasandha's son's name was Sahadev, so that makes sense.  But he was just a boy when he was crowned, so not likely to be involved in such discussions.

Incidentally, at what point did Ramanand Sagar's SK end?  I mean did it end w/ the destruction of the Yadavas, or w/ Krishna destroying all his enemies, or the Pandava victory @ Kurukshetra, or other?
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Posted: 12 May 2011 at 12:03am | IP Logged
Originally posted by _Vrish_

Jarasandha's son's name was Sahadev, so that makes sense.  But he was just a boy when he was crowned, so not likely to be involved in such discussions.

Incidentally, at what point did Ramanand Sagar's SK end?  I mean did it end w/ the destruction of the Yadavas, or w/ Krishna destroying all his enemies, or the Pandava victory @ Kurukshetra, or other?

They ended after Banasur was defeated and asked forgiveness and returned Aniruddha and Usha and Krishna and Shiva declared their oneness and on general request, Krishna displayed His Viraat Swaroop once again.

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Posted: 12 May 2011 at 6:46am | IP Logged
Originally posted by _Vrish_

Thanks for these videos.  It took me a bit for Kush to sink in as Krishna. Lols, if you'd seen him from the beginning, you would have gotten quite used to him as Krishna.LOL But yes, it took me a bit time as well when I used to see random Swapnil vids of SK before buying the DVDs and starting from the beginning.  But these weapons were right out of RS Ramayan, and so were the songs.  The Sagars seem to have a very limited tune collection - the battle songs were the same as that b/w Lakshman-Indrajit and Luv-Lakshman. You'll see this tune (as well as the weapons) many times throughout SK, especially during the adult Krishna phase...I guess they just did not want to bother with different tunes and weapons when they already had something from Ramayan.

The battles were more realistic, except I doubt that Krishna used his sudarshan chakra for the sake of creating panic in the enemy camp while they were massacred. I guess no serial can show Krishna without his Sudarshan Chakra, even in one battle.LOL That was my initial impression as well. I wondered what the point of the Sudarshan Chakra was.  Rest of it they showed fine.  I wonder whether Balaram's use of the plowshare was like was shown - I thought that he used his plow for non-warlike uses, and his primary weapon was the mace.  (I once asked on RF whether he or Krishna ended up w/ Vishnu's mace - don't recall the answers) I think Balram's primary weapon was the mace, but I recall reading that he used the plough quite a bit as well, especially against 'difficult' enemies.

Who were the rulers? I have to watch the vids again myself to recall the exact names, but they were all allies of Kans who were enraged with Krishna for killing their friend, but I remember for sure that Rukmi, Shalva, Sishupal, Dantavakra, and Banasur were of the group. I think Bhagadatta might have been, but not sure.  And in the last video, who was the prince who questioned the wisdom of waging war on Krishna? As Lola said, he was Jarasandh's son whom no one took that seriously since he was the youngest of them all.  Doesn't sound like Rukmi - he hated Krishna.  In fact who were the various rulers on Jarasandha's side who battled Krishna & Balaram? Which one was Sishupala, which one Rukmi, which one Shalva, which one Dantavakra, which one Purandara, and so on? Did Purandara also fight Krishna I thought he never had any contact with him before.

One thing I found strange was that in those 17 wars, no major rulers were killed.  Yup, Krishna had promised Sishupala's mother that he'd forgive her 17 times, but he made no such promises regarding Jarasandha, Shalva, Dantavakra and so on.  How come he didn't take them out on those occasions? Jarasandha was destined to be killed by Bhima, so Krishna could not dishonor Bhima's destiny by killing him. Also, the time had not yet come for Dantavakra to be killed, for God only kills someone when their sins escalate and Dantavakra was not yet that sinful to be killed by God himself. As for Shalva, I think it is the same for him...I don't remember who killed him later on. Was it Yudhisthira or Krishna himself?
 
Btw, did you notice that the tune which comes after Jarasandh's first defeat is the same one Anand Sagar used for Shri Ram's Mahaprayaan in Ramayan? I had always wondered whether that tune was an original one composed by Ravindra Jain for ASR, or if he had taken it from RSR or SK like with the other tunes.

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Posted: 12 May 2011 at 6:48am | IP Logged
Originally posted by _Vrish_

Jarasandha's son's name was Sahadev, so that makes sense.  But he was just a boy when he was crowned, so not likely to be involved in such discussions.

Incidentally, at what point did Ramanand Sagar's SK end?  I mean did it end w/ the destruction of the Yadavas, or w/ Krishna destroying all his enemies, or the Pandava victory @ Kurukshetra, or other?
 
Ramanand Sagar never showed the destruction of the Yadavas...whether it was because of low budget or not I don't know, but after the Kurukshetra War, he showed a few more Krishna Leela stories like Krishna bringing back to life Devaki's first six babies, Anirudh-Usha love story, etc.

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Posted: 12 May 2011 at 7:37am | IP Logged
I remember for sure that Rukmi, Shalva, Sishupal, Dantavakra, and Banasur were of the group. I think Bhagadatta might have been, but not sure.

Banasur couldn't have been there - he had no contact w/ Krishna b4 Anirudha eloped w/ Usha.  In fact, he once went to Shiva and complained about his 1000 arms being useless, and Shiva cursed him that a force equal to him would defeat Banasura.  Had Banasura fought Krishna in this war, Shiva too would have had to fight on Jarasandha's side.  So no!

Bhagadatta was Narakasura's son, and just a boy when Krishna killed his father and crowned him.  He had no enemity w/ Krishna.  I would be interested to know how he ended up on the Kaurava side in the war, and how was he so aged, when Krishna killed his father and enthroned him, and Krishna wasn't an aged man in Kurukshetra, and Bhagadatta was much younger than him.

Purandara, otoh, was an enemy of Krishna - he was one of Shishupala's allies who was defeated when Krishna abducted Rukmini and Balarama routed Jarasandh's & Shishupala's forces.  He returned to his kingdom, and was totally depressed, so his courtiers and subject started a cult worshipping him as the true avatar of Vishnu.  He started believing it himself, and invited Krishna to surrender his divinity to him, and they faced each other.  Krishna killed him w/ the sudarshan chakra, and also the ruler of Kashi, who was his ally.

Reason I asked the question was that all the above enemies of Krishna, w/ the exception of Jarasandha, were killed by Krishna.  Unlike in the cases of Duryodhan & Dushashan, Bhima never swore to kill Jarasandha, so Krishna or Balarama were @ liberty to kill him.  I think Balaram could have killed him the same way Bhima did, and they could have freed all the kings.  Similarly, Krishna ended up killing Shalva, Dantavakra, Purandara and other enemies anyway, so he could have just killed them in those battles.  Shishupala was the only case where Krishna had promised his mausi that he'd spare him 100 times, so there, he didn't have a choice.  In fact, that would have been easier - as he noted in video 1, he'd not have to go and hunt for them.  But he killed Purandara & Dantavakra by going and hunting for them, he waited until Shalva laid waste to Dwaraka.  I didn't get why he didn't finish them off in those wars themselves.

Lola, Vidhi & her vidhans were there for more khatarnag purposes, like the wacky tales we saw in the AS Ramayan. LOL

Exit question: I think Shalva would have been a much nicer & happier ruler had he honorably been allowed to marry Amba, w/o Bheeshma sticking his nose in b/w.  Anyone agree w/ me?


Edited by _Vrish_ - 12 May 2011 at 8:05am

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Posted: 12 May 2011 at 8:31am | IP Logged
Originally posted by _Vrish_

I remember for sure that Rukmi, Shalva, Sishupal, Dantavakra, and Banasur were of the group. I think Bhagadatta might have been, but not sure.

Banasur couldn't have been there - he had no contact w/ Krishna b4 Anirudha eloped w/ Usha.  In fact, he once went to Shiva and complained about his 1000 arms being useless, and Shiva cursed him that a force equal to him would defeat Banasura.  Had Banasura fought Krishna in this war, Shiva too would have had to fight on Jarasandha's side.  So no! See? I told you I was bad with Mahabharat names, so I probably mixed them up like usual.LOL But was Banasur ever a friend of Kamsa? SK shows a Banasur helping Kans out a lot in his plans, and though it may not have been the same Banasur who was  Usha's father, I wondered what happened to him. Did Krishna or Balaram kill him during Kans's yagna, along with Chanoor?

Bhagadatta was Narakasura's son, and just a boy when Krishna killed his father and crowned him.  He had no enemity w/ Krishna. In this online site I found about Jarasandh's allies, it lists Bhagadatta as one of them and says that he helped Jarasandh out during his battles against Krishna. I would be interested to know how he ended up on the Kaurava side in the war, and how was he so aged, when Krishna killed his father and enthroned him, and Krishna wasn't an aged man in Kurukshetra, and Bhagadatta was much younger than him. Krishna wasn't aged, but he was in his 40s, wasn't he? And was Bhagadatta ever a small boy when Krishna throned him? If he was in his youth, it would explain how he too was pretty old by the time Kurukshetra War happened.

Purandara, otoh, was an enemy of Krishna - he was one of Shishupala's allies who was defeated when Krishna abducted Rukmini and Balarama routed Jarasandh's & Shishupala's forces.  He returned to his kingdom, and was totally depressed, so his courtiers and subject started a cult worshipping him as the true avatar of Vishnu.  He started believing it himself, and invited Krishna to surrender his divinity to him, and they faced each other.  Krishna killed him w/ the sudarshan chakra, and also the ruler of Kashi, who was his ally. I'm currently watching the Purandara track of Ramanand Sagar's Shri Krishna, and I was wondering where this guy came from, and how he just randomly had an enmity with Krishna since SK never showed him during the Rukmini Harini track. This makes sense now, thanks.

Reason I asked the question was that all the above enemies of Krishna, w/ the exception of Jarasandha, were killed by Krishna.  Unlike in the cases of Duryodhan & Dushashan, Bhima never swore to kill Jarasandha, so Krishna or Balarama were @ liberty to kill him. It says in the Bhagawatham that Bhima and 4 others were born under a specific nakshatra (I don't remember exactly which), and that as per the laws of that nakshatra no one could kill these 5 people except each other. The five were Bhima, Jarasandha, Bakasura, Hidimba, and Kichaka. That is why Krishna never killed Jarasandha though he had both the opportunity and strength. He wanted to honor the nakshatras by not going against their rules, and so he made Bhima kill Jarasandha as well as the other three.  I think Balaram could have killed him the same way Bhima did, and they could have freed all the kings.  Similarly, Krishna ended up killing Shalva, Dantavakra, Purandara and other enemies anyway, so he could have just killed them in those battles. Was Shalva the same as Shalya? Shalya was Madri's brother, wasn't he? And Shalva was...the man whom Amba originally loved but who refused to marry her after Bhishma kidnapped the three princesses. I always wondered whether these two were the same. Shishupala was the only case where Krishna had promised his mausi that he'd spare him 100 times, so there, he didn't have a choice.  In fact, that would have been easier - as he noted in video 1, he'd not have to go and hunt for them.  But he killed Purandara & Dantavakra by going and hunting for them, he waited until Shalva laid waste to Dwaraka.  I didn't get why he didn't finish them off in those wars themselves. I guess because their sins were not at their peak yet. Ram did say during Ram Avatar that he could not kill Ravan till the latter's sins had reached their peak, and that was why Sita had to be kidnapped. It says in many puranas that God never kills paapis till their sins are so atrocious that they can be no longer ignored. Purandara had Dantavakra's sins were not at their peak during Jarasandh's battles, so I'm thinking Krishna waited till both committed more sins and the time for God to intervent came. But yeah, it would have been easier and quicker to kill them all off during the Jarasandh fights.

Exit question: I think Shalva would have been a much nicer & happier ruler had he honorably been allowed to marry Amba, w/o Bheeshma sticking his nose in b/w.  Anyone agree w/ me? Okay, so that answers my question whether Shalva was the man Amba had wanted to marry. Yes, I myself felt a bit sorry for him when Bheeshma had taken Amba, but I felt sorrier for Amba. Bhishma did return her to Shalva, and when Amba herself told him that her virtue was intact and Bhishma let her go, what stopped Shalva from marrying her? I can understand that his honor may have been compromised to accept Amba like a donation or something, but I feel it was more his pride and ego...so it was partly his fault that he did not marry Amba.


Edited by JanakiRaghunath - 12 May 2011 at 8:33am
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Posted: 12 May 2011 at 10:01am | IP Logged
No, Shalva & Shalya were different.  Shalva was killed by Krishna after the Rajasuya yagna, and Shalya was killed by Yudhisthir on day 18 of the Kurukshetra war.  On Shalva & Amba, I thought that he just felt that if he accepted Amba as charity from Bheeshma, his honor would be humiliated.  That's why Amba took her revenge against Bheeshma, not Shalva, and that's why Parashuram ordered Bheeshma, not Shalva, to marry Amba.  So what Bheeshma did was definitely evil.

If they showed any Banasura as Kamsa's friend - hadn't read of this b4 anywhere - that would be different from the Banasura who was Shiva's devotee and who Krishna humbled.

If there were 2 Bhagadattas, of which one was Krishna's enemy as you describe, and the other Narakasura's son, that explains what I read in the Mahabharat about the one who Arjun killed was Jarasandha's ally.  But in the account of the battle, Bhagadatta hurled a weapon called the Vaishnavastra that Krishna had given him, and Krishna intercepted it so that it couldn't kill Arjun, which it otherwise would have.  If Bhagadatta was not the son of Narakasura but an ally of Jarasandha, why would Krishna have given him that?

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