Originally posted by: Darklord_RehanExactly Debipriya.That is what I want to say. Why do we even consider Krishna separate from ourselves? He is very much embedded within us.
Krishna is not separate form us, he is 'Within' us. If we become 'aware' of His presence in 'this very self', then only we can 'truly explore' all the 'Potentials' of this 'Human Birth'. But realising Krishna has many many more facets other than just 'Righteous Karma'. It also has the Compassion, Humility, Love and ability to Forgive and Relate' to all the beings of the Universe be it animate or inanimate. Actually, we cannot describe ALL the characteristics of the Lord as He is 'Gunaateet'.So I don't find any logic in going to temple/mosque/church to please him.We go to church/ mosque/ temples not only to worship Him, we also go there because we feel Happy to remain close to the Lord, to feel the Bliss of Devotion again and again.
There were many Unrighteous persons who religiously prayed to the Lord, followed rituals, read scriptures, sang Aartis and yet the Lord was never pleased with them and manifested to bring them down. Hiranyakashyap, Ravan, Jarasandh, Karna, Duryodhan etc were the greatest examples.
So that proves that only Righteous Karma makes us close to Krishna and not prayers or religious rituals.As for unrighteous people doing religious activities- it is there in the first sc of RS R, that they all will get the 'fruit of their penance' acc to 'Karm ka vidhaan'. But since they are not in the right path, they will perish at the end.So we cannot compare an innocent/ common person doing puja, with that of any unrighteous peron like Raavan, Hiranyakashipu. Common people, who are busy with his / her life, perform puja to keep his/ her family happy, to ask for the grace of the Lord in their daily life- the 'fruits' they ask in return of their daily pujas are very very different fom the way the second group, who always has some 'Personal' (rather 'Selfish') motive, which is definitely against the rules of the 'Srishti Charka'. That is the reason of their destruction.Karma is definitely important, but the 'mindset' while doing karma is also very very important. There is nothing wrong in religiuos rituals or prayers as long as they are for the purpose of the Welfare of the Masses/ the Whole Creation or if they are the expression of 'Sincere Love' coming from the heart of a Devotee. And as for a Devotees, there remains nothing more to ask from the Lord, as they already have the most precious element in them by God's grace- that is 'Bhakti'.
Originally posted by: Debipriya
Originally posted by: Darklord_Rehan
The Rajsuya Yagya was a political card to establish Yudhishtir's reign, liberate Shishupal, stir Duryodhan's envy and sow the seeds for Kurukshetra war. It had got nothing to do with religious practices. Krishna, the Supreme Benefactor, Himself was present with Yudhishtir with His blessings. So why do you think that He would ask Yudhishtir to offer prayers to the Demi Gods?It was a political card- yes, but the element of Dharma was an inseparable part of it. We can never forget that in spite of Himself being with the Pandavas, (as you have mentioned), Krishna wanted each of their actions to be in the 'righteous' (rather 'exemplary') path. So a 'Dharmik Anushthaan' was necessary, to express their Gratefulness to the Lord and to Sacrifice what they already have to get something more (essence of 'yagna') .
In the Govardhan Vandana, Krishna stopped the Gokul Vasis from the traditional worshiping of Indra and asked them to worship the Govardhan as it was the source of their income. It gave them food, shelter and protected them from natural calamities and gave everything unconditionally. Besides he wished to teach the Demi Gods a lesson. So I think in this occasion he did oppose the rituals.But the main point is that He encouraged them to 'worship' Govardhan Parvat, instead of Indra. The element 'worship' is common in both case. Krishna never says that worshiping is wrong. What He did was 'broadening the Visions' of the Gokulvaasis, so that they can 'perceive' the Lord in Nature (i.e.- around them), thus they will be able to Appreciate and Value the all gifts of Nature and will be Grateful for that.The part of 'Indra mann Bhang' was another aspect of this story. It was done for the sake of Indra. It is relevant from the POV of Indra. In Govardhan Pravat incident, Krishna never opposed the idea of Worshipping but he opposed the idea of 'blessings in exchange of worshipping' (WRT- Indra). He made Indra aware of his responsibilities, with/ without receiving pujas from the common people.In Bhagwat Gita, Krishna clearly says that man gets deviated from the path of Dharma by blindly following social customs and traditions. Blind faith it self is the greatest Adharma. He has always asked us to use logic and intellect to guide our actions.Well, as much I have understood Geeta, I want to say that- 'True Knowledge' / 'Vivek' always shows us the right way, which is the way of the 'Dharma'. And it can never oppose 'worshipping', be it 'outside' ( that is- 'puja paath') or 'within the individual' where he remains connected with the Lord in each moment of his life.
And why do we even need to go to temple. Krishna is in every matter, every particle. Krishna is in us. So why do we need to exclusively worship a stone idol with all sorts of rituals to please Him? Isn't it better to worship ourselves through righteous actions rather than vague worldly rituals which are different and even contradictory for every religion and every community?...Nishkaam Karma is the only way to Nirvana. And that makes more sense to me than those myriad rituals and traditions practiced all over the world.Here again we have that 'Sakaar-Nirakaar' philosophies. Some persons 'actually perceive' the Lord in those idols, and some do not see Him there. It depends on the 'state of realisation' that person is in at that moment. And both the visions are right in ref to their POVs. Who are we to conclude that those rituals are vague? Have we gone thr' the same 'Feelings/ Realisations' those persons go thr' while doing the Puja? Who says that this viewpoint is correct and that one is not? Only because we do not feel the same way should never be the reason for us to reject any idea/ concept. Those rituals make sense to some people (sincere devotees) and they find Bliss/ Happiness thr' them, so why prevent them from doing so?For reference, here are some videos from the Geeta episodes of 'Shri Krishna' about these concepts:
Hi guys. Well, I've just caught up to reading all of your posts and have to comment myself.
Devotion is indisputably higher than karma. The fruits of Karma are not eternal at all. Yes, if one earns enough punya, or good deeds, then he can go to the material heaven, which is the court of Indra. As soon as your good deeds run out, you have to be reincarnated back here on earth. What is the point of pursuing karma then? Karma means nothing else than ones actions. Devotion, faith, love, and respect are embodied in bhakti, not karma. Moksh is to be united with God. Bhakti is the want of that union. And so, if we do not want Moksh, why would we get it? Hence, bhakti, not Karma, leads to eternal salvation.
If you find Krishna in your heart, then you are a bhakt. And as Debi di said, there is something called self-realization, when we realize that we are separate from our karma, our bodies, and mind, but not from Krishna. We are jivatmas, and we are of the paramatma which is Krishna. Krishna is the full manifestation of the lord, and all of us are always attracted to him because of that. And that is true for those who are not even self realized. People visit temples and worship idols to perform bhakti outwardly since they have not completely recognized the Krishna within them. You are right, he is within every molecule and atom of the universe, but we need to perceive him with our senses before we realize him with our mind and heart. And there is much to learn through bhakti. You can learn more about Krishna that way. How can it be blind?
And if bhakti was not important, then Krishna would have never stayed in Gokul. He would have never performed his divine pastimes with the Braj Gopikas, the Raas Leela would never had occurred. And all of the great saints have always advocated for bhakti over karma. We must assume that they are realized souls since we are not and respect what they say. It must be much more true than our own made up philosophies.
Originally posted by: x.Anku.xCan someone shorten what this article is saying? It looks quite offending but I want to know what it says before I can give my thoughts on it...
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