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Kool's Commentary : March 16 (Page 15)

bhallarox IF-Dazzler

Joined: 11 January 2011
Posts: 3866

Posted: 18 March 2011 at 8:27pm | IP Logged
I'll tell you i'm really annoyed at Manav yesterday. Even Damodar told Manav to come asap. I have a feeling Damodar will start to take good care about Savita, but thta's just a thought. I'm most likely wrong, he's shown to take the bahu's side always.

Tanyaz IF-Stunnerz

Joined: 03 December 2009
Posts: 37059

Posted: 18 March 2011 at 8:53pm | IP Logged
Wow Naava , amazing job ..I am going to read your post one more time now ...
Excellent analysis of the human emotions ...I love the way you have analysed manav and why he behaves the way he does ....
I agree , at no point has Manav rejected his mother but he has rejected the abuse  , the control and that sick relationship that existed before when savita used to abuse Archana all the time and he would look the other way ...
He is rejecting that kind of situation .....and I am very happy he is doing this ...

Edited by Tanyaz - 19 March 2011 at 1:55am

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bhallarox IF-Dazzler

Joined: 11 January 2011
Posts: 3866

Posted: 18 March 2011 at 8:55pm | IP Logged
nice post naava.Smile

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naava IF-Dazzler

Joined: 20 July 2010
Posts: 2629

Posted: 19 March 2011 at 4:05am | IP Logged
@ Hope and others

Wanted to add a couple other short observations:

1. Saviita's desire to control Manav is NOT malicious.  She is not doing it because she hates or wants to hurt him or even that she wants to deny him happiness.  She is doing it because Manav is the only one who makes her feel safe.  She isn't capable of thinking beyond herself, so the idea of his happiness yes or no hasn't even occurred to her.  She is like this i think because emotionally she is like a drowning woman...from the beginning not just now.... and he is her life support.. her love for him is all wrapped up in how he can keep her safe and from drowning.  

2 The fact that her despair is because of Sachins' death doesn't hold up to scrutiny with the facts that have unfolded.    If that were true, baby Sachu would have fulfilled her needs.  He hasn' fact, she neglects him (not meaning the forgetting him episode) ...and is using him now to vent her anger, not just her words which he is old enough to digest, not in meaning, but in sounds..but her body language of rage and anger is abusive to this sweet little baby.  Again, she is not trying to hurt Sachu, whom she loves, but she can't distinguish between her own needs and that fact that people around her also have feelings...  (even in the marketplace)

A sad situation and while one has to feel sorry for Savita, one hopes the CV's can find healthy ways for her to be emotionally intact.    Tongue

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anu rulz
anu rulz

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Posts: 6959

Posted: 19 March 2011 at 5:19am | IP Logged
very beautifully written analysis was a delight to read..

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naava IF-Dazzler

Joined: 20 July 2010
Posts: 2629

Posted: 21 March 2011 at 5:22am | IP Logged
Originally posted by anu rulz

very beautifully written analysis was a delight to read..

thanks anu and to the others as i said i just wrote from my heart in answering the question Hope asked me. 

i'm wondering what the CV's will bring now with this weeks' episode.Shocked  Ouch..keeps us all on edge most of the time...make's me is hard enough, why are we  watching a soap that makes us tear our hair out???  LOLLOLLOL  silly us...    the one thing that is nice though, is discussing some of the deep subjects on the forum...and the not so deep ones too...Wink 

all the best   Hug

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shootingstar27 IF-Dazzler

Joined: 25 April 2010
Posts: 4434

Posted: 21 March 2011 at 8:11am | IP Logged
wow naavClap ClapClap 

What a beautifully written, thought provoking analysis. Its been a pleasure to read them.

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--Hope-- IF-Rockerz

Joined: 18 March 2010
Posts: 5309

Posted: 21 March 2011 at 9:49am | IP Logged

Hi Naava, thanks for replying.  Sorry I have been offline for a few days and did not get a chance to reply to your post.  I went through what you wrote and I see your perspective on this.  I can understand better now why our opinions on the same characters and situations are so different. it's because our fundamental premise and our context on the D household and the involved relationship dynamics are so different.  You mentioned in one of your previous posts that you were not Indian (not sure if that means you are of Indian origin but not an Indian citizen or neither - not that it works for you or against you but more so because it gives me an even better insight into your opinions and perspective).


I have made comments on many of your points.  My intention was always to discuss and explore so I have tried to present my perspective and explain why I think so.


I grew up in lower middle class Mumbai - surrounded by families just like the Ds and Ks. I married into an upper middle class family and was exposed to a different lifestyle and am now living in a similar situation in Canada.  I told Kools when I had first joined the forum that when I see this show I feel like I am back home watching the life-story of my next door neighbour in our chali (chawl or building).  It's is so familiar sometimes - except for the surreal divorce and Vandu deciding to marry a rapist - that we get very personal in our opinions.  A common knee-jerk reaction I am afraid. Anyways, I mention this to give you some context for why my opinions may diverge so apparently from yours. 



From Naava:


I am racking my brain to try and condense my thoughts as one could (and many HAVE!) written a book length response!  That's ok Naava. It's the nature of discussion.

Specifically you seemed to ask: What would Manav had to have done that would show he rejected his mother..  Am i correct that that implies you think the things he did were showing rejection of her? 

This is so interesting because i want to ask back "what has he done that ever showed he rejected her?"   
I have not watched the actual epis since Dec 25 of last year so I do apologize if you I cannot cite exact examples. I know Kools, sowmya, tiya, varsha and a few others on this thread have cited out many since the track began and I agree with 99% of them (based on WU). Generally speaking, he has shown a dismal lack of interest in his mother's welfare and his responsibilities as a son of the house.  His actions seem to be token gestures, after-thoughts and there is a lack of self-motivation which is needed if he genuinely wanted to mend this relationship with his mother.  In business there is a principle, you put in efforts depending on your desire and expectation of success. I am not saying Savita is without blemish but many situations are a response to Manav's detached and of late insensitive/inconsiderate behavior.

Look, trying to be concise i want to say 4 things - all of which i have said before.

1. This is a very sick household...from the beginning.  Even tho Damo drinks, Savita - without drinking - is the main alcoholic personality.  She is someone who constantly creates a crisis around her and everyone must serve the crisis (which means her).  It is her way of controlling her environment, because she is out of control emotionally and always has been.  It's how she feels safe, even though deep down she knows she is doing wrong and probably hates herself for it.   There are usually 3 responses to this: rebellion (Sachin) appeasement (Manav) and withdrawal (Vandita)..   Sometimes individuals exhibit combinations...  (interestingly - in real life, withdrawal and appeasement personality girls often are sexually abused (vandu)...)


I think of all the comments I read in your post this is the one where we have a fundamental difference of opinion.  I have never seen the D house as a sick house or a dysfunctional family.  It is an average lower middle class house where one of the family members is a weak link (Damo).  I have known many families like this in my youth.  By lower middle class Indian standards, they are far from being viewed as a sick or dysfunctional household. They have their family troubles but which home does not?  I have known of much more dysfunctional families than this in the west - mothers who are hypochondriacs and a severe emotional strain on their children or rebellious teenagers with violent personality shifts, abusive or habitually challenged fathers/ spouses, etc.  Does not make the household sick just the individual dysfunctional with the rest of the family unit. Compared to this, the D's are just your average family next door.

Savita is just an average person with zero education and spousal support and the accompanying poverty and insecurities associated with her reality; and the other family members are trying to live in the most pragmatic way around Damo's habit and the family's financial woes.  Every human being is born with a defense mechanism that rises to the fore when we feel vulnerable.  Offensive maneuvers are also viewed as a good defense strategy.  In the earlier episodes, we saw a different image of the D household than we see today (not sure if you watched all earlier epis of PR).  Savita's defense mechanism is her aggressive behavior just like Sulo's defense mechanism is her low key agitated and even sometimes docile behavior (similar to Archana).  That does not make either person sick to me - just average and relatable.   Whatever her relationship with Archana, she always loved Manav.  Again, I see this in so many families I know in India and Caucasian Canada/ US.  If I thought that made these households sick then that is a huge percentile of families in the world.


In my opinion, Manav's earlier behavior (pre-Sachin's death) to his mother is not appeasement (as that would indicate guilt on his part for their reality) but rather indulgence.  Most sensitive children demonstrate these qualities and actions in response to perceived vulnerabilities in their parents - even in families where parents are non-abusive or habitually challenged.  This does not make his relationship with his mother sick/dysfunctional - maybe protective and insightful?  I saw Sachin less as a rebellious child and more as the everyday younger sibling (playful, relying on parents or older siblings for living, evading responsibility and acting as the positive energy in tense situations). I never saw him rebel against any family member. He was your typical young adult (educated but with no ambition and lots of time to spare and act like a roadside Romeo). Vandu was also a typical teenager - protected by her family, indulged by her brothers and sensitive to family dynamics.  She was bubbly, innocent, and sensitive - until the rape but then that had to do with her experience with all the Lokhandes not the Ds. As a family they used to be very close knit - until the remarriage. They have an inherent love and respect for their absent/ eccentric father but a loyal and equally loving relationship with their mother.  I saw them as the average lower middle class family - unsophisticated, bantering/ bickering internally but stand united against outside interference. 


2. Manav has always loved his mother immensely and did everything she told him to. Yes. His appeasement was born both out of deep love for his mother & out of an attempt to pacify and calm things down. At times. At other times, it was not related to his mother at all but to his own moral compass i.e. when he got Shravani to live with them. He has always demonstrated this rational decision making. His mother may influence just like Archana does - depends on who is the flavour of the day in his life - but it is ultimately his decision after he ways the pros and cons in an ultra practical way.  I think his behaviour changed from indulgence to appeasement after marriage.  When they were all jailed he felt very guilty as it was because of his inlaws, etc. The appeaser feels totally responsible for the household calm, and terribly guilty if there is chaos.  He feels that if he doesn't do what is asked, things will go wrong, and he goes to enormous lengths to avoid conflict.  If there is conflict, he feels like a failure and that he wasn't good enough to keep everyone happy (I am not good enough to be ur son, i was not able to keep you happy).   Yes, he has demonstrated the Everybody Loves Raymond trait of wanting everyone to be happy with him and his actions - just like Archana.  The middleman's job is never easy I am afraid.LOL

3.After the marriage, Manav went to her & Damo, so excited, a little scared, but sure that his mother would forgive him for running off and getting married the way they did, and it would be always..he could make it calm again.  (he was still the appeasing child and he had misbehaved)  Savita kicked him out on their wedding night....he was crushed.  I remember it differently somehow - he chose to walk out when she rejected Archana.  But if I remember that scene he went there after his encounter with Ks and even more apprehensive i.e. 'save the most difficult one for last' kind of thing. He expected conflict and did not show the slightest bit excitement on his face. Rather he went there knowing he had done something to topple the apple cart. In the west a child's sense of fair play is based on a fundamental belief in natural entitlements but back home our sense of fair play is based on more practical things i.e. how does this affect the family unit as a whole. If he had grown up here he would have not felt the slightest bit guilty at his actions as he would have felt that sense of being entitled to personal happiness but back home he would have known that his actions would have conflicted with parental expectations and there he would have felt guilty as the moral older son.  Neither reaction is right or wrong. It's just that we tend to gravitate towards reasoning that we are familiar with.  But that is ok. Again, it is a perspective thing.   Over and over again, she rejected him.  
Again, here I see it differently -she never wanted a token relationship for old time's sake. She wanted to see that their relationship was holding strong despite their differences.  We see savita's insecurities - the same kind of insecurity in reverse with children who have chosen to follow a different career path than their parents set out for them.  They do not want their relationship with their parents to be scarred by their disappointment/opinion on their children's decision.  So they are always hyper-sensitive to any kind of communication feedback they get from their parents about their lives and this hyper-sensitivity id counter productive.  natural.

4. But now he has given up. No, now he doesn't go there often...because he is so tired of being abused.  I don't blame him. 
In my opinion, he gave up when he left on his wedding night.  He gave up then. What he has been doing since is trying to appease his wife by mending his relationship with his mother so that his wife does not feel guilty for this estrangement between him and his mother.  His displays of frustration, guilt, deep disappointment happen mostly in front of Archana (with whom he has no conflict). When I read of his conversations with Archana on the issue it seems like an active conversation but when I read of the updates with his mother it has this feel of like an email convo. You send a pre-scripted message - the opposite party replies with something controversial - you don't like the reply so you cease communications and withdraw. Seems more detached. 

Everyone is so quick to say SAvita was justified in her bad behavior,  there were REASONS she acted so bad.  So did Jack the ripper or any psychopathic killer...they too had their REASONS. 
Jack the ripper or any psychopathic killerLOL Why only such extreme personalities? Everyday people with workplace differences, schools, businesses have differences with someone- they act negatively and even visually aggressive.  remember the term "going postal"?  It is a common human reaction by those who feel wronged.  When Archana felt wronged, she first went into self pity mode and then martyrdom mode. Many of us found that behaviour bad an insuffereable - almost inhuman and unrelatable.  As Savita feels wronged her defense mechanism kicks in - its just more noisier than Sulo's or Archana's right?  The truth is one may harbor feelings of hatred, but one cannot act on them --- murder, speaking out for the death of someone (especially your DIL), phsyical and emotional abuse....those are all UNACCEPTABLE.  I agree. But yet people say such things in a fit of anger all the time. I can relate to that.  But imagine when you are super angry and you meet someone super super calm and even conciliatory - it does not have a calming effect - it actually appears patronizing and leads to further infuriation. Again, this is something each one of us encounters routinely but just never pays particular heed too. 

Everyone screams at Manav, it's not what you say it's what you do.  So he tried to DO the things i have listed above.  In the beginning, and until just recently, but he was rejected everytime.  So now yes, he has given up.   If we apply that same standard to SAvita, what she DID was try to murder Archu, physically threw things at her, pushed her, grabbed her and hurt her, stole the grandchild...   W*F kind of a double standard is that?  I totally agree with you that Savita and Archana have a super tumultuous relationship but we were dissecting Manav and Savita's relationship na?  it is possible to separate the two and find balance.

Like you apparently have a hard time understanding my position, i must admit I have an equally hard time understanding yours.   I understand your position perfectly after this post. Hopefully I have done an equally good job in explaining mine.   I DO understand honoring matter what...but, there is a line that should not be crossed when abuse is involved...emotional and/or physical.. 
I agree Manav should protect his wife but I also feel that being so insightful on his parents he should try to find a balance using his own motivation (not Archana's)

Wanted to add a couple other short observations:

1. Saviita's desire to control Manav is NOT malicious.  She is not doing it because she hates or wants to hurt him or even that she wants to deny him happiness.  She is doing it because Manav is the only one who makes her feel safe.  She isn't capable of thinking beyond herself, so the idea of his happiness yes or no hasn't even occurred to her.  She is like this i think because emotionally she is like a drowning woman...from the beginning not just now.... and he is her life support.. her love for him is all wrapped up in how he can keep her safe and from drowning.   Maybe or maybe she genuinely wants his happiness and a clean break from his past marriage which involved a tremendous amount of collateral damage. 
I don't think she cares who Manav's second wife is as long as it is not from the K household or their acquaintance.  Shravani was the logical choice because of sachu but the whole bizarre idea of Manav -Shravani was Manav's brainchild not Savita's, if I remember correctly.

2 The fact that her despair is because of Sachins' death doesn't hold up to scrutiny with the facts that have unfolded.  


Again here I agree, the CVs have repeatedly flip flopped on all relationships, motivations and characters in a very inconsistent and unconvincing manner. This is why most of my comments rely on the original relationships and characters as presented in the early days of the show.


BTW, I did not notice an answer to my original question in your response - What would Manav had to have done that would show he rejected his mother - Did I miss mention of possible acts of real rejection? If so, I apologize. Could you direct me to it again?

Thanks, its been nice discussing.

HopeBig smile

Edited by --Hope-- - 22 March 2011 at 3:11am

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