Mythological Masti

ToSwearOrNotToSwear?: Mytho Oaths and Consequences

MagadhSundari thumbnail
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Posted: 13 years ago
Hi guys πŸ˜ƒ Here I am with a brand new topic which will hopefully inspire lots of great discussion. When we try to think of a common theme that runs through all or at least almost all of our beloved scriptural stories, we will possibly, probably stumble upon the concept of characters famous for (and at some point struggling with) keeping their word.

This encompasses those who were known for being 100%  truth-speaking Satyavaadis in general (Harishchandra, Vasudev, Yudhishtir) and those who were big on sticking to any promises they make (Dashrath, Ram, basically everyone who falls under "Raghukul reeti sada chali aayi, Vasudev again). In addition to these, we have several other characters who made significant oaths and whose fulfillment of those oaths would completely change the course of history: Bharat, Lakshman, Bhishma, Bhim, Draupadi, and many more.


Given that this motif of oaths and promises and honesty in general appears so frequently in all the epics, it must be of great importance. The purpose of this thread is multifold, it can include the following and any other relevant questions you guys can think of:

1) Analyze and compare the characters' motives for making the promises they made and for sticking to them if they did - was it worth the consequences?

2) Where do these values of honesty and promise-keeping rank when compared to other priorities which the characters juggled alongside them? what values trump them in importance and would justify temporarily turning away from them, if any?

3) Evaluate the different strategies some characters used to get through moral dilemmas involving truth (e.g. Yudhishtir's Ashwatthama line to Drona and Vasudevji's evasiveness/silence with Kans, even Dashrath's suggestion to Ram of taking the throne by force rather than accepting the exile he was bound to administer to him) - were they ethically sound? How effectively did they mitigate the dilemma, and why or why not did they work?

These are only a few of the many great questions that can be derived from this theme, and I hope you guys enjoy discussing them here very peacefully and diplomatically and extensively πŸ˜› And feel free to refer to any kind of source in making your points, whether they be the texts themselves or articles and serials. based on them.

For a quick reminder of the characters and situations to which we are referring, here goes a little list that you can feel free to add to and in fact I will gladly update this post so we can keep track of all of them:

- Harishchandra allegedly promised to hand his kingdom over to Vishwamitra
- Dashrath promised Kaikeyi any two boons as a result of which Shri Ram was exiled
- Shri Ram promised to rid the earth of demons and bring peace to the sages in Dandaka Aranya
- Lakshman swore to kill Bharat suspecting that he arrived in Chitrakoot with evil intentions
- Bharat swore to commit suicide if Shri Ram would take even a day longer than necessary in returning from the forest
- Hanuman promised to bring the Sanjeevani on time
- Lakshman promised to kill Meghnaad the day he actually did
- Shri Ram promised to uphold the honor of his ancestors at any cost when he was crowned king of Ayodhya
- Vasudev promised to hand over all his children to Kans without a fight in exchange for Devaki's life
- upon becoming aware of Shri Krishna's birth Vasudev promises to keep this one under wraps at any cost
- Bhishma promised to remain celibate, not become king, and protect the throne of Hastinapur and whoever occupied it as long as he lived
- Draupadi and her hair... need I say more
- Bhim's various promises concerning the administering of justice to the offending Kauravs
- Arjun vows to kill either Jayadrath or himself after Abhimanyu's death
- Krishna on not lifting a weapon during the Kurukshetra war
- Promises of friendship made to Sugreev, Vibhishan, Sudama, etc.

... Anyone else???

Have fun guys!!!
Edited by lola610 - 13 years ago

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pakhara thumbnail
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Posted: 13 years ago
Well di, I think that this is all due to their Bhakti. Because they were so attached to God and so detached from the rest of the world, dharma was their number one priority, ie Lakshman, Hanuman, Pandavas, etc. So they wouldn't have the same troubles with juggling what they wanted in life with their word. And because of that, God assisted them, or they were God and legends were told about them. I mean, they were sometimes disillusioned like Nal when he had to give up Damyanti because of his own fault, but still, he lived by it. And then God helped to find out a solution. Hope what I said made sense.
Edited by AishuJSKfan - 13 years ago
Ankita_88 thumbnail
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Posted: 13 years ago
arjun sweared that he will kill jayadrath and if he is unsuccessful then he will take "agnisamadhi"...........a famous oatha though.....:-)
ADMJCXNK97fan thumbnail
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Posted: 13 years ago
ah, this id a very interesting topic!!!!

i was just going to say devotion.....but since you got that covered i'll pick at something else!!! lol

Determination......commitment to Dharma (Yudhistir etc.), some used rage, with pure determination and faith that god will help them if their purpose was righteous (well most weren't that concerned about the righteous-ness part....) like Draupadi, Arjuna, Bhim, Parshuram etc.
some out of love, seflessness & devotion like Bhishma, Ram etc.

But many did make rash decisions like arjuna, but fortunatley Krishna to the rescue, however he made the best question right there ever....'Why is your destiny so fond of taking oaths?' that--to me, is probably one of the best questions ever!!!!!!! hahahaha

But sometimes in the heat of the moment rash oaths can be taken, and can lead to misery becasue in the heat, no 'checking' will be done in the mind to see wether this is a good thing being done or not....so this is a good topic but i have to go now so i can't expand much more at the moment....i will though!!!!

.anishaa. thumbnail
Posted: 13 years ago
Nice topic! Feels like I'm posting in a million years, lol. I'll be back to edit soon 😊
-SilverFlames- thumbnail
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Posted: 13 years ago

*edit added*

Great Topic Lola! πŸ‘πŸΌ
 
1) Analyze and compare the characters' motives for making the promises they made and for sticking to them if they did - was it worth the consequences?
In a moment of rashness, some of these decisions were made. Many those in Mahabharat and some in Ramayan too.
In order to seem like a bigger person, show dedication to another oaths were made WITHOUT seeing the result.
 
In Ramayan, Maharaj Dasarath gave 3 boons to Maharani Kakeiye?? Why?? For saving his life, maybe so.. but how did Dasarath take one moment and think would I live to regret this? So was he merely trying to impress her? He must have concluded that the woman would want materialistic things? yet he gave her a 3 boons? seems flawed. He didn't have hindsight or distrust that the woman would ever ask his son to be sent to exile? That's one part I don't understand myself, however I believe in destiny personally so it was destined to be that way or Ravaan wouldn't have got released from his burdens if Ram hadn't gone to exile?
In Mahabharat, Pitamaah Bhishma..- I always think about this one and see that Devraat was so young, naive and innocent that he gave in to the worldly demands too easily.He simply wanted his father's happiness, not thinking that because of this the future of his clan would be at stake? Had he not have take the pratigyaa then maybe Mahabharat would never have taken place?
Yet again we have the arguement that Munni Vyas and Shri Ganesh had wrote destiny?? Mahabharat would have taken place? Shri Krishna had to come to earth once more??  
See there is a part in BRC's Mahabharat that actually looks at this where by Pitamaah Bhisma's body Shri Krishna tells the Pandaves that what we do is to be done. We never think of the result of our actions or how it will affect us tomorrow. We make decisions based on judgement of how we feel at that particular moment? With that I actually agree, we live life in the present and don't think what will be done tomorrow or how are actions from today will change what will happen in the days ahead.
 
 
2) Where do these values of honesty and promise-keeping rank when compared to other priorities which the characters juggled alongside them? what values trump them in importance and would justify temporarily turning away from them, if any?
Like I said, its a momentarily emotion they felt when taking the pratigya's/oaths/promises. Had they been given hindsight to the future they would never have taken the path they had. They try to show others that love them, care for them and even sometimes protect themselves from grief and trouble that they just give out promises to prove that they are honest. Trying to prove the great people?
In the case of Draupadi, she was a woman scorned and the only reason she took her oath was to fuel her husbands? Sorry if you disagree but she wanted revenge for her humiluation and how she had been treated publicly. She wanted to feel safe, protected and see IF her husband could carry out his oath? and obviously seeing Draupadi's untied hair Bhim was reminded day and night of her screams, of the royal assembly, of the Kauravs and how they used treachery and of course of his oath.  
 
3) Evaluate the different strategies some characters used to get through moral dilemmas involving truth (e.g. Yudhishtir's Ashwatthama line to Drona and Vasudevji's evasiveness/silence with Kans, even Dashrath's suggestion to Ram of taking the throne by force rather than accepting the exile he was bound to administer to him) - were they ethically sound? How effectively did they mitigate the dilemma, and why or why not did they work?
 
- A white lie? I don't believe that Yudhistir told a white lie. A white lie is for the benefit for someone, that being said a lie is a lie and no goodness would come of it, however the wording of his lie was quite simple that he did that say that Bhim killed the elephant Ashwatthama? I don't know why but Dronacharaya had already been broken by the anticipation of knowing about his son's death so in effect he wasn't listening to Yudhistir. Not saying what Yudhistir was right. I mean there is no right or wrong. It was war. The most shocking part of the lie/truth here is that the pandavas actually believed that Dronacharya leaving his chariot would be the end for that. Did they not KNOW Dhrishtadum? Did they not know of the personal war between Dronacharaya and King Draupad??
It just seemed like the easiest path that they had to eliminate someone on the enemy side, whether or not they wished it.. it was going to happen, so why the sorrow? They were fighting on the battlefield so either they killed or they were killed. ( does that make senseπŸ˜†)
 
- In the case of King Dhasarath.. He gave his 3 boons before Ram was even born? So now his time to fulfill all the Queen's demands have come, he wants to leave to Ram to fight back? Why?? He didn't think of the result of granting the boons yet as soon as he deems right he can cause distractions from his promises to be fulfilled? That seems unfair to Queen Kaikeyie, I am not saying what she asked for was correct but no limitations, no constraints or boundries were set upon her so why does she have to compromise because her husband couldn't keep his word? Yet to show he was a great man he wanted Ram to fight back? Makes no sense.
 
And with Vasudev. I just genuinely believe he was trying to be a bigger person. If the hits on side give your other side. He didn't it in him to fight someone like Kans, and good things come your way. If he had fighted/rebelled against Kans what would have come of it? His death? Mata Devaki's death? He got fruit for his silence. I mean if being father to Shri Krishan isn't the greatest thing that could have happened then what could have been. Him bearing everything was his devotion in God and believing that someone will save us from badness. Good will prevail over evil. Despite seeing the death of his children, his faith was not shaken. He kept faith that God would help him.
 
=)) Sorry If I offended anyone by my answers its just my judgement and opinion on certain things and how I see them. No intention to say your wrong or to upset anyone.. :D
 
Edited by _Sanjana23_ - 13 years ago
Debipriya thumbnail
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Posted: 13 years ago
This content was originally posted by: Ankita_88

arjun sweared that he will kill jayadrath and if he is unsuccessful then he will take "agnisamadhi"...........a famous oatha though.....:-)

 
Oh, Ankita, was just thinking about the same while reading Lola's post πŸ˜Š
 
 
This content was originally posted by: ADMJCXNK97fan

ah, this id a very interesting topic!!!!

 
i was just going to say devotion.....but since you got that covered i'll pick at something else!!! lol
 
Determination......commitment to Dharma (Yudhistir etc.), some used rage, with pure determination and faith that god will help them if their purpose was righteous (well most weren't that concerned about the righteous-ness part....) like Draupadi, Arjuna, Bhim, Parshuram etc.
some out of love, seflessness & devotion like Bhishma, Ram etc.
 
But many did make rash decisions like arjuna, but fortunatley Krishna to the rescue, however he made the best question right there ever....'Why is your destiny so fond of taking oaths?' that--to me, is probably one of the best questions ever!!!!!!! hahahaha
 
But sometimes in the heat of the moment rash oaths can be taken, and can lead to misery becasue in the heat, no 'checking' will be done in the mind to see wether this is a good thing being done or not....so this is a good topic but i have to go now so i can't expand much more at the moment....i will though!!!!
 

 
Yes Dear, I do support this view of yours. It was indeed a rash decision by Arjun. I always get surprised when I think about the fact that even after listening and understanding The Geeta from the Lord, how could Arjun behave in such a way? Being carried away so much by the Emotion (i.e.- the grief of losing his son)!  

 
On the other hand, as you have mentioned the point of 'Righteousness', we can support Arjun in this respect only till 'the promise of killing Jayadrath'. But he tried to do that on the very next day- this part was unnecessary, I think, it was the part which Krishna wanted the point out in his dialogue. The 'Righteousness' was also there in Lakshman's oath to kill Meghnad, in Bheem's oath to kill Kauravas- thus, they were working for Dhrama thr' these oaths.

 
Otherwise, if we consider all the situations, we can found that, mostly,  the oaths are taken in the 'spur-of-the moment' basis (that is- mostly). They are the Spontaneous Reactions of the person in that particular situation (like Bheem's oath of killing Kauravas, Lakshman's oath of killing Bharat, Bharat's oath of commiting suicide, Bheeshma's oath to Satyavati's father, Dasharath's promise to Kaikeyi). Whether these oaths were correct or wrong ones- that needed to be discussed, but I feel, they actually represent the Dedication of that person to the Ideal/ Person.

 
Starting from the action of Arjun and trying to have an overview of the whole topic, I could focus only on this point now πŸ˜³. I guess, this is my Spontaneous Response after reading the 1st few posts πŸ˜ƒ.

 

 
And about the 'various strategies taken by the characters to go thr' the Moral Dilemma', it was the Surrendership/Devotion to Krishna which gave the strength to Bheeshma to carry on his outward actions for the Hastinapur Kingdom, which made his situation rather complex. Just thought to mention it here, as most of  the members know about my attachment with the character of Bheeshma. πŸ˜† πŸ˜†


 
 
Lola, This topic is really Vast and Sooo.. Multi-Layered that I am also expecting many many angles in our discussion. Indeed, we'll be able to go deep into the characters while analyzing their actions.
 
ShivangBuch thumbnail
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Posted: 13 years ago
Here I am Lola.πŸ€— Mark the attendance.πŸ˜ƒ

Starting my post with a few more illustrations:

# Arjun's oath regarding Gandeev (The reason of getting angry on Yudhisthir). 

# And then Krishna's most important example. Promise of not fighting in Kurukshetra war. Then promise given to Shishupal's mother. Krishna didn't take any oath I think but gave plenty of such promises to various people during his life. Sandipani's wife also to quote one. Promise given to Sudama also "Mitra ka dharma sada mai hi nibhaunga". Oath might be to bring back Syamantak possibly. 

Edited by ShivangBuch - 13 years ago
ShivangBuch thumbnail
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Posted: 13 years ago
Now let me make an attempt to define the three concepts:

(1) Oath: One can say that OATH is nothing but the promise given to oneself. If you break the oath, then you are just breaking that self commitment (and thus lacking seriousness about that or self control or consistency we can say). How far the commitment to self is greater than commitment to others? 

Is it less important because happiness of someone else in particular is not relying on you and breaking of the same can only harm your prestige and image of consistency in the minds of mass and only someone out of people in general (whom you don't necessarily know to be expecting you to fulfill your oath in his/her own interest) might be mislead relying on your public statement of oath (or on heard story about the fact of oath from close sources of oath maker)?

Is it more important with the reasoning that if you first can't fulfill the promise given to self, how can you be able to fulfill the promise given to others consistently (Because promises given to others may be under some situational pressure or given in urgency also and hence likely to be less practically feasible than oath)?

Is it equally important because of the universal truth that spirit is one and the same (so whether you give promise to yourself or others; that equally implies promise given to God)?


Now, having raised the above points, there is no doubt that in absolute terms, oath keeping is greatly important spiritually and that is also God's own nature too (Dharmasansthaapan commitment). Then comes the issue of WISDOM of the oath-taker [Both (a) presence of mind/future vision while taking the oath and (b) ability to weigh in future everytime the relative spiritual importance of (i) keeping the oath and (ii) ultimate aim of any soul of maintaining SANAATAN DHARMA on the earth - analysis of positive and negative consequences of keeping/breaking the oath and number of affected people with the magnitude of effect.]


(2) Promise keeping: One can say that promise keeping is very close to speaking truth. In fact, by thinking in depth, truth of speech is an intersecting/overlapping event with promise keeping. One can't say that "I always speak truth and have never uttered false in my life" when he actually speaks truth always but fails to keep his promise. That guy only speaks truth about past and present happenings around him. All the statements spoken completely BECOME true only when promises are fulfilled whenever it relates to words related to FUTURE course of action are uttered. As per that theory, when you breach promise (Either due to carelessness and not attempting or due to its impossibility being beyond your ability and control despite attempting to the fullest - may be even giving up life if necessary for that), your past words, when you gave that promise, automatically become falsehood. 


Concept of promise keeping is almost equivalent to SHARNAAGAT VATSAL bhaav once given because someone is relying on your words and therefore future action. Like someone is asking your shelter and you have to give it. That is the biggest duty Lord Ram has endorsed for himself when he quotes the illustration of King Shibi while explaining the importance to his men why they should give shelter to Vibhishan. Here (Unlike complete surrendership of Vibhishan but in simple friendship or relation), though someone may not be that surrendered to you to beg the performance of promise from you, still he is expecting it from you and relying on you and hence you are in a sense to that extent God for him for that situation.

Now the important point over here is the KNOWLEDGE OF YOUR ABILITIES AND LIMITATIONS while giving the promise. The question to be asked is whether it was the duty of RAM and KRISHNA to give promise without any option or they gave those promises fully knowing that they were always able to fulfill them. (Vasudev had no other option to save Devaki's life when he gave promise to Kans - at the most he could fight with Kans and die along with Devaki but he was knowing his limitations). For Lord's incarnations, former can be the human interpretation (The promises were given when they were absolute necessity for dharma or for saving someone's life) and latter can be the faithful interpretation that Ram and Krishna always knew that they were going to fulfill it. The latter interpretation can't be taken for other characters.


(3) Truthful speech: Truth of speech here implies the truth uttered about facts of past and present (regarding future - it is already covered in the definition of promise keeping) which the speaker genuinely believes to be true without any doubt and without any need of its confirmation as per his genuine belief after all due care taken of information gathering in the past (Whether or not they are actually true - why I have written like this is because of Vasudev's explanation to Kans in Shri Krishna serial - Satya ki paribhasha badi kathin hai. Manushya ke liye wohi satya hai jahan tak ka usko gyan hai.).


Therefore this concept will remain at a very gross level of behaviour rather than deep spiritual level because from spiritual point of view, this world - sansaar - itself is false. Brahm satya jagat mithyaa. All the time we speak "I, you and he/she" which is spiritually a falsehood because all spirits are same. All the objects which we see is the reflection of Lord created by illusion. But still those statements we regard to be true only within the boundaries of existing level of knowledge of that person. Now the very fact that uttering or not uttering truth is a gross success or failure of conduct of one person, it shouldn't be or can't be IMO bigger than some of the basic necessary spiritual aspects such as principle of welfare of all (or many) and devotion to God.

Edited by ShivangBuch - 13 years ago
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Posted: 13 years ago

Now my take on the question about the dilemma at the time of action - whether to keep the promise/oath or break it. Which is greater dharma?


Lakshman made an oath of killing Bharat in front of Ram in Chitrakoot when Bharat was about to arrive to the hut with Ayodhya army and was near the hill (Mujhe aapke charno ki saugandh hai bhaiyaa ki aaj mai use jeeta nahi chhodunga). After a prophecy and explanation by Ram of the consequences of an irrevocable unthought action, Lakshman left the thought of keeping that oath. Now compare this with Bhishma's oaths. Those who justify or advocate Bhishma's stand of siding Kauravas, imagine what would have happened, had Lakshman sticked to his oath!!!!!!😲 Similarly, think about Arjun lifting sword against Yudhishthir who abused him & his Gandeev out of pain and tiredness when Krishna stops him explaining that insulting an elder on his front/face is equivalent to his killing and he thus guiding Arjun to fulfill his oath in subtle manner through his subtle knowledge of dharma.

Also it is interesting to discuss whether all the oaths of Bhishma are to be put in the 1st definition of OATH or in the 2nd definition of PROMISE. Hastinapur ke sinhaasan par viraajmaan har raajaa me pitaashree ki chhabi dekhunga - that was in a sense promise given to people sitting in the royal court to satisfy them sponteneously. Brahmachaari vrat was in a sense promise given to Satyavati's father, but he didn't even change that when Satyavati's father himself tried to take it back (Like Ram says to Keikei in Chitrakoot - aapko diye hue vachan ko waapas lene ka adhikaar keval pitaashree ke paas tha jo ab hamaare beech nahi hain) and continued even after implied death of Satyavati's father.



Greatly popular picture of three greats in the war - Krishna, Bhishma & Arjun


Bhishma's act of keeping aside all the weapons and joining hands to Krishna and Krishna's readiness or attempt of breaking (or breaking) his promise not to use/lift* (Someone please clear this very important doubt from the epic - whether it was use or lift and when & to whom Krishna gave that promise) weapon (He actually lifted it already) is very very interesting from devotees' point of view. "Tab to mai tumse shastra uthvaa kar hi rahunga Madhusudan"😊. As if Bhishma (incarnation of Vasu) is saying to Lord that first you show me that you are ready to breach your promise or can break promise, then only I will do it. First you endorse it by practical demonstration and then I am ready. Nothing is above devotion to you when the real time comes of choosing between you and oath but not until that realization of the arrival of that exact situation.

Also the justification given by Krishna is interesting when he says: "Wo (Mera aapke upar shastra uthaanaa) to keval aapki veerta/mahaantaa ko diya hua sammaan tha" or something like that. Should that attempt to breach promise by Krishna be regarded as his attempt to send some message to people for LOKSANGRAH (Some teaching to be followed - that protection of Sanaatan dharma/dharmasansthaapan on earth is bigger than keeping of any promise) or just an action to motivate Arjun and pay respect to Bhishma to increase his glory? Did he actually breach the promise or was just about to break it but didn't and always knew that such thing was or was not going to happen? I mean at the time of giving the promise itself, whether he knew that he would actually BREAK it/that he would just PRETEND to break it without breaking it to successfully fulfill some purpose?

Having said critically about Bhishma siding Kauravas, nothing bad happened eventually because he never made any attempt to kill any Pandava and also made way for dharma to win by falling himself rather than defeating dharma. Despite saving his oath by behaviourally siding adharma, he allowed dharmasansthaapan.
Edited by ShivangBuch - 13 years ago