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Aparna_BD

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Aparna_BD

Joined: 01 July 2005

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Posted: 26 September 2005 at 7:27pm | IP Logged
for Naina_Manam   -whether it should be made illegal

Whether or not abortion is a good choice or a moral/ethical choice is different than whether or not it should be a LEGAL choice. For many people, this difference is difficult to understand. If something is bad (and we have not yet considered whether or not abortion is even a bad thing yet), then they believe it should be forbidden by law.

This, of course, is flawed thinking. We make distinctions all the time between what we ourselves believe should or should not be legal, entirely apart from whether or not we believe it to be moral.
For example, I believe it is morally and ethically wrong for a woman or man who is married to commit adultery by having sex with someone other than their spouse. I do NOT believe that those who do commit adultery should be prosecuted through the criminal justice system.
Some people believe that smoking is wrong, but as long as smokers do not infringe others right to breathe clean air, I do not believe that the private act of smoking should be forbidden by law.

I also oppose the use of drugs and of drinking to the point of intoxication, yet I believe that I can oppose these vices more effectively by supporting adequate treatment programs than by putting alcoholics or addicts in jails.
Would anyone accuse me of being pro-adultery, pro-smoking, or pro-drugs/alcohol, merely because I believe that they are either matters left to individuals that are none of my business or that they can be opposed more effectively using strategies OTHER THAN the criminal justice system?
Similarly, there are many individuals who strongly oppose abortion on moral grounds, and could never conclude that it was the right choice to make, but feel that it is not a choice than can be compelled by force of law.

Those who wish to keep the government out of other people's personal decisions, whatever they may believe for themselves, see themselves in the moderate middle -- planted firmly between two extremes.

The extreme right (as in the Christian Coalition) opposes abortion and believes that the government can and should require as a matter of law that a woman use the most private part of her reproductive anatomy to carry an unwanted pregnancy even if she doesn't want to.

The moderate middle believes that whatever their own opinion about abortion may be, that they do not have the right to have their hired POLITICIANS pass MORE LAWS to FORCE their OPINIONS onto anyone else who might want to make a different choice with her own body. The decision about what is right and what should be legislated are separate and distinct issues.


Edited by indygirl - 26 September 2005 at 7:31pm

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Naina_Manam

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Naina_Manam

Joined: 06 September 2005

Posts: 2934

Posted: 27 September 2005 at 7:31am | IP Logged

Originally posted by indygirl

for Naina_Manam   -whether it should be made illegal

Whether or not abortion is a good choice or a moral/ethical choice is different than whether or not it should be a LEGAL choice. For many people, this difference is difficult to understand. If something is bad (and we have not yet considered whether or not abortion is even a bad thing yet), then they believe it should be forbidden by law.

This, of course, is flawed thinking. We make distinctions all the time between what we ourselves believe should or should not be legal, entirely apart from whether or not we believe it to be moral.
For example, I believe it is morally and ethically wrong for a woman or man who is married to commit adultery by having sex with someone other than their spouse. I do NOT believe that those who do commit adultery should be prosecuted through the criminal justice system.
Some people believe that smoking is wrong, but as long as smokers do not infringe others right to breathe clean air, I do not believe that the private act of smoking should be forbidden by law.

I also oppose the use of drugs and of drinking to the point of intoxication, yet I believe that I can oppose these vices more effectively by supporting adequate treatment programs than by putting alcoholics or addicts in jails.
Would anyone accuse me of being pro-adultery, pro-smoking, or pro-drugs/alcohol, merely because I believe that they are either matters left to individuals that are none of my business or that they can be opposed more effectively using strategies OTHER THAN the criminal justice system?
Similarly, there are many individuals who strongly oppose abortion on moral grounds, and could never conclude that it was the right choice to make, but feel that it is not a choice than can be compelled by force of law.

Those who wish to keep the government out of other people's personal decisions, whatever they may believe for themselves, see themselves in the moderate middle -- planted firmly between two extremes.

The extreme right (as in the Christian Coalition) opposes abortion and believes that the government can and should require as a matter of law that a woman use the most private part of her reproductive anatomy to carry an unwanted pregnancy even if she doesn't want to.

The moderate middle believes that whatever their own opinion about abortion may be, that they do not have the right to have their hired POLITICIANS pass MORE LAWS to FORCE their OPINIONS onto anyone else who might want to make a different choice with her own body. The decision about what is right and what should be legislated are separate and distinct issues.

You are right Indygirl maybe it should not be illegal but there is no excuse to do it. If you don't want child use contraception or if you knwo that you won't be able to afford a child just don't have sex!

I am not saying that you are wrong but the examples you provided are not similar to this situation. Drugs should be illegal or otherwise if the governemnts don't take such desicions then

there will be chaos everywhere! No rules no nothing!

 

According to me it's wrong and nobody has any excuse to do it except under some extreme conditions like rape etc. but not regular married women who just don't want to have a kid.

 

That's my point Indygirl and nothing else.

 

Else I do believe in human rights just as much as you do!

Aparna_BD

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Aparna_BD

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Posts: 4926

Posted: 27 September 2005 at 9:11am | IP Logged
Naina_Manam

I completely respect your views and absolutely agree that married women should not treat it like a contraceptive .

But most married women usually don't treat it as casually like a contraception . It hurts them emotionally and physically to make such a decision .Yes they should be carefull .

But many times as i said its poor people who don't have enough information.
Or sometimes its teanagers who were experimenting with sex ( I agree young kids shouldn't have sex )......But they do . You see that around you . So when one teanager becomes pregnant , its better to have an abortion than try and raise a child at 16 years . And if you are an Asian girl who's preganant . She will be slaughtered by her family , relatives , community for pre - marital sex .Yes you can lecture her for doing something bad ...etc etc .....but the decision is now the kid . What do you do next . Quit school to raise a kid, or hand over your responsibility to your parents ( who may or may not want to help). Also in this situation where one is being forced into carrying a child ( read Myra's post ), a woman could be more irresponsible and smoke during pregnancy ,drink , and go take radiation on a tanning bed . There are so many ways a women can harm her child during pregnancy .....its not just abortion . And that would be worse as the child will have severe abnormalities and won't be able to lead a normal life . Is that any good ?

Now lets examine a poor illetarate womens in India's situation . She already has Chilu , Billoo , Tiloo , and Miloo .And now she finds out she is pregnant . She is hardly able to take care of 4 kids , can't send them to school, can't take care of them while she works in people's houses from dawn to dusk .So they are stealing , fighting on the streats etc . She finds out she is pregnant . What is she to do ? If she carries this one too , she is sure to give him/her a miserable life . Also she won't be able to take time off work when she will be pregnant and ill . She won't be able to eat nutritous food and won't be able to work in safe enviorment thats needed for a healthy baby . What is she to do ? Ofcourse in this case too , she needs an abortion .

So i have given you two very desperate situations .Also there are several, for married women too. What if her contraception failed , and now she can't raise this child for many many reasons . Lets not even get into that yet .

Would love to hear you post . See your post subject may have been repeated .....but its a age old argument between pro choice and pro life .

 Smile

Edited by indygirl - 27 September 2005 at 9:15am

Naina_Manam

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Naina_Manam

Joined: 06 September 2005

Posts: 2934

Posted: 27 September 2005 at 1:48pm | IP Logged

Originally posted by indygirl

Naina_Manam

I completely respect your views and absolutely agree that married women should not treat it like a contraceptive .

But most married women usually don't treat it as casually like a contraception . It hurts them emotionally and physically to make such a decision .Yes they should be carefull .

But many times as i said its poor people who don't have enough information.
Or sometimes its teanagers who were experimenting with sex ( I agree young kids shouldn't have sex )......But they do . You see that around you . So when one teanager becomes pregnant , its better to have an abortion than try and raise a child at 16 years . And if you are an Asian girl who's preganant . She will be slaughtered by her family , relatives , community for pre - marital sex .Yes you can lecture her for doing something bad ...etc etc .....but the decision is now the kid . What do you do next . Quit school to raise a kid, or hand over your responsibility to your parents ( who may or may not want to help). Also in this situation where one is being forced into carrying a child ( read Myra's post ), a woman could be more irresponsible and smoke during pregnancy ,drink , and go take radiation on a tanning bed . There are so many ways a women can harm her child during pregnancy .....its not just abortion . And that would be worse as the child will have severe abnormalities and won't be able to lead a normal life . Is that any good ?

Now lets examine a poor illetarate womens in India's situation . She already has Chilu , Billoo , Tiloo , and Miloo .And now she finds out she is pregnant . She is hardly able to take care of 4 kids , can't send them to school, can't take care of them while she works in people's houses from dawn to dusk .So they are stealing , fighting on the streats etc . She finds out she is pregnant . What is she to do ? If she carries this one too , she is sure to give him/her a miserable life . Also she won't be able to take time off work when she will be pregnant and ill . She won't be able to eat nutritous food and won't be able to work in safe enviorment thats needed for a healthy baby . What is she to do ? Ofcourse in this case too , she needs an abortion .

So i have given you two very desperate situations .Also there are several, for married women too. What if her contraception failed , and now she can't raise this child for many many reasons . Lets not even get into that yet .

Would love to hear you post . See your post subject may have been repeated .....but its a age old argument between pro choice and pro life .

 Smile

Dear Indygirl as I said I totally agree with you and I also said that maybe it shouldn't be illegal but should be performed under very very extreme cases.

If you don't want baby don't have sex!! Just don't take risk and if you do take risk then you should face the consequences as well instead of backing up at that point.

If teenagers are just "experiment" they are also told that it can lead to that so same applies here. I mean I do agree with you but those are jsut my thoughts!

 

Aparna_BD

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Aparna_BD

Joined: 01 July 2005

Posts: 4926

Posted: 27 September 2005 at 4:23pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by naina_manam

[ If you don't want baby don't have sex



That just made me smile Naina_Manam !!Smile Lets have this discussion again 10 years from now . Just you and me . You'll be 26 then( i just checked your age in the profile ) ....and i'll be still ......ummm!! Smile

Minnie

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Minnie

Joined: 20 September 2004

Posts: 8640

Posted: 28 September 2005 at 12:10am | IP Logged
Originally posted by indygirl

Originally posted by naina_manam

[ If you don't want baby don't have sex



That just made me smile Naina_Manam !!Smile Lets have this discussion again 10 years from now . Just you and me . You'll be 26 then( i just checked your age in the profile ) ....and i'll be still ......ummm!! Smile

    That made me smile too....

    Naina, you remind me of myself when I was 16, and I too held equally radical views and was a feminist of first degree...ready to banish my woud be husband if he so much as raised his voice....LOL

    I still am a feminist, and don't take crap easily. But I have also learned a few hard lessons. That one does not always have a say when it comes to the matters of marriage, sex arguably being the strongest bond to keep a marriage fresh , alive and the best way to convey to your partner your love , that contraception can actually give rise to complications in human body like allergy, severe painful infection,so much so that it can give rise to complications.....that sometimes " not having sex" is simply not an option.....

    I agree that abortion should be the last resort and should not be used as contraceptive. However, a basic fact is, if you cannot give the happiness and security a child deserves,or if your own life is at jeopardy, or bringing another child can actually affects the well biend of older children, it gets essential to make such difficult decision....I beleive, if you cannot take care of a child, you have no right to bring it to this world......

    My grandmother died giving birth to her ninth child, 4 out of existing eight had already died of disease and neglect, the nineth died with her during child birth. My father was just  seven,  his oldest brother, 12.  The  four of them grew up without a proper care and utmost neglect, and after my grandfather re married and went on another spree of childbirth, they were almost left to fend for themselves.....

     Taking away the right to abortion is the worst thing you can do to a woman....

   

Naina_Manam

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Naina_Manam

Joined: 06 September 2005

Posts: 2934

Posted: 28 September 2005 at 11:40am | IP Logged
Originally posted by indygirl

Originally posted by naina_manam

[ If you don't want baby don't have sex



That just made me smile Naina_Manam !!Smile Lets have this discussion again 10 years from now . Just you and me . You'll be 26 then( i just checked your age in the profile ) ....and i'll be still ......ummm!! Smile

Hi Indygirl, nobody knows about the future. Anything can happen. Maybe you are right. I don't know what the circumstances will be at that time but I can assure you one thing that I would never abort child under any circumstances. I will do whatever  I can to be a good mother even if I can't afford that child at that time I would never abort my child!!! That I am sure of!!!

 

Naina_Manam

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Naina_Manam

Joined: 06 September 2005

Posts: 2934

Posted: 28 September 2005 at 11:43am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Minnie

Originally posted by indygirl

Originally posted by naina_manam

[ If you don't want baby don't have sex



That just made me smile Naina_Manam !!Smile Lets have this discussion again 10 years from now . Just you and me . You'll be 26 then( i just checked your age in the profile ) ....and i'll be still ......ummm!! Smile

    That made me smile too....

    Naina, you remind me of myself when I was 16, and I too held equally radical views and was a feminist of first degree...ready to banish my woud be husband if he so much as raised his voice....LOL

    I still am a feminist, and don't take crap easily. But I have also learned a few hard lessons. That one does not always have a say when it comes to the matters of marriage, sex arguably being the strongest bond to keep a marriage fresh , alive and the best way to convey to your partner your love , that contraception can actually give rise to complications in human body like allergy, severe painful infection,so much so that it can give rise to complications.....that sometimes " not having sex" is simply not an option.....

    I agree that abortion should be the last resort and should not be used as contraceptive. However, a basic fact is, if you cannot give the happiness and security a child deserves,or if your own life is at jeopardy, or bringing another child can actually affects the well biend of older children, it gets essential to make such difficult decision....I beleive, if you cannot take care of a child, you have no right to bring it to this world......

    My grandmother died giving birth to her ninth child, 4 out of existing eight had already died of disease and neglect, the nineth died with her during child birth. My father was just  seven,  his oldest brother, 12.  The  four of them grew up without a proper care and utmost neglect, and after my grandfather re married and went on another spree of childbirth, they were almost left to fend for themselves.....

     Taking away the right to abortion is the worst thing you can do to a woman....

   

Hi Minnie I respect your thoughts and I am thinking that you are married and I am not so maybe I don't understand as much complications of married life as you do but still I think that abortion is the worst desicion a woman, a mother, or even a wife could take...... So I personally would NEVER do such a thing or recommend it under ANY circumstances!

 

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