Debate Mansion

   

Right or Wrong - who determines that? (Page 20)

Post Reply New Post

Page 20 of 20

Page 1 Page 19
Page   of 20

lighthouse

IF-Dazzler

lighthouse

Joined: 18 January 2006

Posts: 2842

Posted: 04 April 2008 at 1:29pm | IP Logged
Wink
Originally posted by chatbuster

Originally posted by lighthouse

Originally posted by chatbuster

yes, our moral judgments do enter into the equation- but it's our morals, not someone else's! Winkwe have to hold true to ourselves, not necessarily to something external. i dont see that as being non-judgmental as you are suggesting- nowhere do i suggest that it's acceptable to break the moral contract we have with ourselves.Confused 

meanwhile, i think to argue that we should all have the same sense of right and wrong is ignoring obvious differences in circumstances, perception, natural ability etc.Ouch It also ignores mankind's history of evolving towards different sense of right from wrong, of our differences from even our ancestors, let alone our contemporaries. Now how qwerty and you get to that is something you guys should lay out. Would be better imo than finding exceptions we can debate about endlessly.Smile

 I think what we are saying is that our morals are mostly similar as the 10 commandments hasn't changed since our ancestors time and our moral judgement is consistent within our domain hence ppl engage in lying about affairs, cover ups and using modern era freedom to justify anything and everything.  All of us still get hurt the same and feel the same pain when we are victims . hence don't do what you don't want to be done unto you is still a  favorite quote.

mostly similar, but not the same. like the DNA sequences. 95% similar to chimpanzees but not the same.LOL it's those small differences, whether in DNA or our INDIVIDUAL sense of right/ wrong that make all the difference. it's those few millimeters that makes someone look pretty or makes someone else look hideous. cant be arguing for absolutes based on the 95% when the 5% causes all the variety and deviation and is more representative of actual human experience, not the text-book ones.Wink   why would you quantify something I never said and run away with it? that was not my point about "mostly similar".  I was refering to your comment about us being different from our ancestors. I don't think so in respect to 10 commandments, worked then and works now - namely stealing, murdering, coveting, adultery, bearing false witness, swearing, honoring mum/dad except for the first 2 which refer to supreme god and no idol worship which wouldn't apply to atheist.  The more things change the more they remain the same. Wink  Is it really that difficult to identify our own flaws and -ve emotions of greed, fear, insecurity etc and not see them in 8/10 commandments?. 

also in terms of tone, imo what you have seems to be a less rigid position than what a position of absolute rights and wrongs might imply. if that's the case, then i think we are making some progress in getting to what i was alluding to all along.WinkLOL  think what you may but I haven't changed my views, except in certain very rare life/death type of situations , it is not that difficult to identify the right course of action.. the fact that we don't always listen to our inner voice and follow thru is another debate.  Gosh I know I shouldn't have this piece of chocolate with my tea now but hey it is worth ignoring my diet sense for some instant gratification.. Wink LOL I know I'll regret it later..Tongue

Dear Guest, Being an unregistered member you are missing out on participating in the lively discussions happening on the topic "Right or Wrong - who determines that? (Page 20)" in Debate Mansion forum. In addition you lose out on the fun interactions with fellow members and other member exclusive features that India-Forums has to offer. Join India's most popular discussion portal on Indian Entertainment. It's FREE and registration is effortless so JOIN NOW!

Gauri_3

IF-Sizzlerz

Joined: 12 November 2006

Posts: 13617

Posted: 04 April 2008 at 1:37pm | IP Logged
THE ACCOUNT OF THE MEMBER WHO POSTED THIS MESSAGE HAS BEEN TEMPORARILY BANNED.

If you think this is an error please Contact us.

chatbuster

IF-Rockerz

chatbuster

Deactivated on request

Joined: 13 January 2006

Posts: 7780

Posted: 04 April 2008 at 3:31pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by lighthouse

 I think what we are saying is that our morals are mostly similar as the 10 commandments hasn't changed since our ancestors time and our moral judgement is consistent within our domain hence ppl engage in lying about affairs, cover ups and using modern era freedom to justify anything and everything.  All of us still get hurt the same and feel the same pain when we are victims . hence don't do what you don't want to be done unto you is still a  favorite quote.

   why would you quantify something I never said and run away with it? that was not my point about "mostly similar".  I was refering to your comment about us being different from our ancestors. I don't think so in respect to 10 commandments, worked then and works now - namely stealing, murdering, coveting, adultery, bearing false witness, swearing, honoring mum/dad except for the first 2 which refer to supreme god and no idol worship which wouldn't apply to atheist.  The more things change the more they remain the same. Wink  Is it really that difficult to identify our own flaws and -ve emotions of greed, fear, insecurity etc and not see them in 8/10 commandments?. 

 

also in terms of tone, imo what you have seems to be a less rigid position than what a position of absolute rights and wrongs might imply. if that's the case, then i think we are making some progress in getting to what i was alluding to all along.WinkLOL  think what you may but I haven't changed my views, except in certain very rare life/death type of situations , it is not that difficult to identify the right course of action.. the fact that we don't always listen to our inner voice and follow thru is another debate.  Gosh I know I shouldn't have this piece of chocolate with my tea now but hey it is worth ignoring my diet sense for some instant gratification.. Wink LOL I know I'll regret it later..Tongue

lol. so are we saying the cat typed "mostly similar" above?LOL

in any case, excuse me if that's not really your position. after all, qwerty and you seemed to have positions that are "mostly similar".  though i remember now you did acknowledge some differences- human behavior is not similar, or was that human judgment? LOL

as for the ten commandments working out so well, wonder why the wonderful folks who started their own brand of religion didnt realize that. their followers sure think their specific brand is something worth dying for and killing. each seems to think they've found their own manna to heaven and the other guy's manna is the wrong manna.LOL

actually even with this latest post of yours, you are somewhere still ignoring the fact that people with good conscience can and do see things differently. i dont think anyone's been siding with folks who wilfully misbehave for no good reason, but somehow that's been your bogeyman. is that even a worthwhile debate? ConfusedWink

then somewhere before, you seem to be excusing away dissimilar behavior on grounds of those being of an exceptional variety. well, isnt that what separates us from the chimpanzees, the few exceptions? or do we next start to find common ground with the chimpanzees and say that just because they too have sex, they too eat food etc, they too do most of the things we do on a daily basis, that we are the same as chimpanzees? i mean are we still arguing on those points?LOL



Edited by chatbuster - 04 April 2008 at 5:27pm

return_to_hades

IF-Veteran Member

return_to_hades

Joined: 18 January 2006

Posts: 20486

Posted: 04 April 2008 at 4:47pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by lighthouse

Originally posted by return_to_hades


The Japanese believe in a saving face culture. It would be wrong to criticize your Japanese co-worker. At the same time Americans consider it wrong to let mistakes go unnoticed. Russians also have a saving face culture. People tell white lies called 'vranyo' to deny errors. Russians find it wrong when people do not utilize vranyo to save face. Other cultures find it wrong that such lying is acceptable. In Latin America a premium called 'la mordida' is expected to be paid to have a government contract passed. The government official is considered 'right' in demanding the premium for their service. In other parts of the world we consider this as a 'bribe' and 'wrong'.


 I think you are talking about social conventions not morals. Everyone knows it is wrong to steal but if it is allowed in a certain community , it becomes social convention. Smile

The thing is that social conventions are determined by the morality of the society as a whole. Consequently social conventions themselves influence morality.

Whether lying is wrong or not is a moral principle. When the Russian lies to save face or the Japanese is not honest about poor performance they have altered this moral principle to their society. The definitions of lying, the moral issues encompassing lying have been altered giving way to these social conventions. On the other hand there are societies that have different views of lying and feel that cover up to save face is immoral.

I am not trying to deny that there are basic moral principles. However, the point I want to make is that these principles are not rigid but very flexible guidelines. They are adaptable to society and situations.

Take the moral principle 'one must return what is borrowed'. However, if we borrowed a piece of paper to write on, we do not feel obligated to return a piece of paper back. If one borrowed a car, then we expect it be returned. When we borrow books, games etc how soon we return it depends on our relationship with that person. If we borrow small amounts of money like a few quarters for soda or laundry it completely depends on our relationship with people if we ever return it and how soon.

Whether it is a major decision or simple things in life moral principles adapt to people and situation. I am not saying morality should be twisted for personal purposes, but what is right and acceptable may well and truly vary and the person adapts to it.

 

chatbuster

IF-Rockerz

chatbuster

Deactivated on request

Joined: 13 January 2006

Posts: 7780

Posted: 04 April 2008 at 5:33pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by return_to_hades

Originally posted by lighthouse

Originally posted by return_to_hades


The Japanese believe in a saving face culture. It would be wrong to criticize your Japanese co-worker. At the same time Americans consider it wrong to let mistakes go unnoticed. Russians also have a saving face culture. People tell white lies called 'vranyo' to deny errors. Russians find it wrong when people do not utilize vranyo to save face. Other cultures find it wrong that such lying is acceptable. In Latin America a premium called 'la mordida' is expected to be paid to have a government contract passed. The government official is considered 'right' in demanding the premium for their service. In other parts of the world we consider this as a 'bribe' and 'wrong'.


 I think you are talking about social conventions not morals. Everyone knows it is wrong to steal but if it is allowed in a certain community , it becomes social convention. Smile

The thing is that social conventions are determined by the morality of the society as a whole. Consequently social conventions themselves influence morality.

Whether lying is wrong or not is a moral principle. When the Russian lies to save face or the Japanese is not honest about poor performance they have altered this moral principle to their society. The definitions of lying, the moral issues encompassing lying have been altered giving way to these social conventions. On the other hand there are societies that have different views of lying and feel that cover up to save face is immoral.

I am not trying to deny that there are basic moral principles. However, the point I want to make is that these principles are not rigid but very flexible guidelines. They are adaptable to society and situations.

Take the moral principle 'one must return what is borrowed'. However, if we borrowed a piece of paper to write on, we do not feel obligated to return a piece of paper back. If one borrowed a car, then we expect it be returned. When we borrow books, games etc how soon we return it depends on our relationship with that person. If we borrow small amounts of money like a few quarters for soda or laundry it completely depends on our relationship with people if we ever return it and how soon.

Whether it is a major decision or simple things in life moral principles adapt to people and situation. I am not saying morality should be twisted for personal purposes, but what is right and acceptable may well and truly vary and the person adapts to it.

 

absolutely on the mark!

social conventions and morality can never diverge too strongly without forces kicking in that try to bring them into sync.

qwertyesque

IF-Rockerz

qwertyesque

Joined: 03 December 2006

Posts: 5953

Posted: 04 April 2008 at 6:45pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by return_to_hades

Originally posted by lighthouse

Originally posted by return_to_hades


The Japanese believe in a saving face culture. It would be wrong to criticize your Japanese co-worker. At the same time Americans consider it wrong to let mistakes go unnoticed. Russians also have a saving face culture. People tell white lies called 'vranyo' to deny errors. Russians find it wrong when people do not utilize vranyo to save face. Other cultures find it wrong that such lying is acceptable. In Latin America a premium called 'la mordida' is expected to be paid to have a government contract passed. The government official is considered 'right' in demanding the premium for their service. In other parts of the world we consider this as a 'bribe' and 'wrong'.


 I think you are talking about social conventions not morals. Everyone knows it is wrong to steal but if it is allowed in a certain community , it becomes social convention. Smile

The thing is that social conventions are determined by the morality of the society as a whole. Consequently social conventions themselves influence morality. rather it should be the otherway round.. morality should influence social convention....

Whether lying is wrong or not is a moral principle. When the Russian lies to save face or the Japanese is not honest about poor performance they have altered this moral principle to their society. The definitions of lying, the moral issues encompassing lying have been altered giving way to these social conventions. On the other hand there are societies that have different views of lying and feel that cover up to save face is immoral. Lying is wrong.. thats the bottom line.. the semantic and situational justification for anything is not going to establish anything.. When you say everything is fair in war.. Still we set up rules dont we...so violation of a moral principle in world is not lack of compliance but an attempt to aberrate...from the norm

I am not trying to deny that there are basic moral principles. However, the point I want to make is that these principles are not rigid but very flexible guidelines. They are adaptable to society and situations. Not really. Guideline unless adhered to is loose way of allowing individual actions to define a rule..which is never the case.. Adhering to guidelines in the subsequent mandate.. .so Its essential, however you interpret.. it should have strong adherence...

Take the moral principle 'one must return what is borrowed'. Yes i borrow kleenex I woudl surely return it if the person wants it back... LOLLOLHowever, if we borrowed a piece of paper to write on, we do not feel obligated to return a piece of paper back. If one borrowed a car, then we expect it be returned. When we borrow books, games etc how soon we return it depends on our relationship with that person. If we borrow small amounts of money like a few quarters for soda or laundry it completely depends on our relationship with people if we ever return it and how soon. What you are saying is the cost of replacing what was borrowed.. that doesnt change the basic principle.. If a wife doesnt scream rape an forcing husband (though not a hurting one, who leaves bruises or physically hurts her) cant be indicted, even otherwise...

Whether it is a major decision or simple things in life moral principles adapt to people and situation. I am not saying morality should be twisted for personal purposes, but what is right and acceptable may well and truly vary and the person adapts to it. Moral issues are always more evident when seen in bigger issues but not so in case of smaller ones.. that doesnt yet establish non-compliance..

 

Post Reply New Post

Go to top

Related Topics

  Topics Topic Starter Replies Views Last Post
Movie on Bebo - is it wrong?

2 3 4 5

Summer3 38 1960 24 September 2009 at 1:38am
By Fair-n-luvly
What is wrong not learning Hindi?

2 3 4 5 6 7 ... 21 22

azman007 170 10119 06 June 2009 at 10:53pm
By rogna
do u think its wrong 4 ppl to choose their partner hot babe 9 640 15 April 2009 at 8:59pm
By nulz
What determines personality of a person?

2 3

itsybitsy 21 3447 12 April 2008 at 10:29pm
By nitasuni
Gay Bishops Right or Wrong?

2 3 4 5

Vinzy 35 2043 05 October 2007 at 5:11am
By ishan2003

Forum Quick Jump

Forum Category

Active Forums

Debate Mansion Topic Index

Limit search to this Forum only.

 

Disclaimer: All Logos and Pictures of various Channels, Shows, Artistes, Media Houses, Companies, Brands etc. belong to their respective owners, and are used to merely visually identify the Channels, Shows, Companies, Brands, etc. to the viewer. Incase of any issue please contact the webmaster.