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Who dares fight with America? (Page 5)

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return_to_hades

IF-Veteran Member

return_to_hades

Joined: 18 January 2006

Posts: 20444

Posted: 14 April 2008 at 11:33pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by chal_phek_mat

People that hate/dislike America, Africa, Well in the past 8 years America under the "pricks of todayWink" has more than doubled its own efforts for the African continent in helping in Debt releif, AIDS prevention, hunger etc. That is double of what America was spending before, and 4 times what the rest of your "non-prick" leaders of the world are even thinking of spending. Yes America holds the leaders of the country accountable for the aid and effort that goes in

So after this you say Africa dislikes America, then perhaps the people are not into being accountable for their actions or perhaps you have no idea whether or not they dislike America

Which would you consider to be a greater act of charity. A man making a hundred and giving ten, or a man making a million and giving hundred. Hundred seems such a larger amount than ten, but when taken in context the man giving ten is giving a lot more.

There is no denying that US government does donate a significant amount of money to Africa. However, you have to take that in perspective. It is imperative to note that USA's donation in percentage to it's GNP has been the lowest of any industrialized nation. It may seem like USA is giving a lot, but when you look at all the figures it really is quite paltry.

Why not view the OECD 2007 statistics for Aid versus GNI  Download this PDF and compare yourself.

Whoa US Aid actually went down almost 9% from 2006 to 2007. Whats this Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Luxembourg (have you seen the size of this baby) , Netherlands, Ireland (Guess they do not care for the next potato blight) Spain, Portugal are contributing a larger share than USA.

I will admit to the point that most developed nations are barely meeting their 0.7 commitment,  which is  global concern in debt relief. But I would expect USA to have the ability to do a lot more.

You might have also heard of CRP (Soil Bank) subsidy that pays farmers not to grow rice, wheat and corn, when it could use that subsidy to buy surplus crops and export to food banks and use the crop residue for ethanol fuel. Did you know Brazil is rapidly moving to ethanol fuel from corn.

Then there is the issue of the continuing racism, discrimination and mistreatment of African Americans. There is still an underground market where African children are whisked off to be sex slaves, bonded labor for wealthy Americans.US ignored the UN's plea to send sufficient military assistance in Darfur as other military occupations were of such dire importance. A lot of African's are also Muslims, we cannot forget the racial and religious profiling in USA

Nah, I doubt that we might ever win a popularity contest in Africa for many many years.

I take that back, we can always poll in Flawrida and OwhyO. In America the land of dreams, anything is possible.

Coming to Asia(lets be specific India). The people on the other side  of terrorism that India faces are the same people that America is beating up in Afghanistan. So to the very least there are atleast 4-5 million Indian families(of soldiers positioned in the Northern borders) that should be thankful, b'cos there is someone backing their effort, someone with a governmental influence. Now if the Indian ministers cannot be thankful for the lives of their own soldiers then perhaps we should be questioning the "non-prick" Indian leadersWink, Now due to the disjointed efforts of the two countries, the people who plan these attacks have to go to Pakistan to conduct their works, but that is more b'cos that's the only place where they have found safe haven. Now you might dislike the "Pricks" in America if you dont appreciate someone trying to stop bombing the train you are in or the building that you are in. But if you are in one of those buildings and if you are not thankful, then perhaps it is a different storyLOL

Let us remember that when the Air India flight was hijacked or whenever there was any sort of terrorist threat to our nation, America did not give a rat's A$$ how many of Indians died and I do not think they do. Only when America was threatened did they decide that they had to do something.

Most Indians realized that in international affairs the USA can be as two faced as they can be. Which is a good reason for India to stand up to the USA. We cannot depend on them. Indians have to be proactive and work in building subcontinental relationships so that we can handle our own affairs and be economically, politically and socially independent and self sufficient. Otherwise not long till India will become the 55th state.

About Afghanistan, I am sure you would have loved the life in Afghanistan before the Talban got flushed away. I am sure the Burkhas are very very comfy there and the pleasures of life were out of the world that would make you "dislike" the American effort, what SayWink

How would you like it if someone sliced deep cuts in your body with a knife and then think they did a favor by stitching it back up and giving you some codeine. Shut up already and be grateful, they stitched it back up right.

Let us not forget that it was America who funded the Taliban and installed them in power in the first place. Oooh the red scare, What would we do without McCarthy. All hail McCarthy. 

Now when America gets into those countries they put their own companies in charge of everything. And Lobbyism makes that possible. And if you think Lobbyism only started 8 years ago then you need to start reading "Washington Post" more often. And Yes the direct competitors are of the European countries. And now they lost out on a big time contracts and theu propents the European politicians lost out on a big payday. Sure they are going to hate/dislike the "Prick leaders of America". But that is just how the world worksWink

Oh America does not just put companies in charge. They put very special companies in charge so that only a few very special people can get very special pay offs. Of course Lobbyism is an age old concept, ever since there has been politics in history there has been Lobbyism. It is how a democratic system attempts to sustain itself.

However, there comes a time when a person with responsibility has to think of their deontological expectations. There is a choice between doing the right thing for the majority interest or  the wrong thing for personal interest. I would not say European nations are saints but they certainly do not cannibalize on their own citizens the way the American government does.

Lets talk local.


About healthcare and social welfare. Well the best chance for healthcare is when you are employed in America. Now if you are unemployed you get state benefits, but then you are suppsed to get a job, once you lose that job you are on your own, there is a line of people for that I am sure you know. And you choose not to make the effort to retain your job, that is too bad sorry after that you are responsible for your own self after that. And for this point everyone agreed including the Clintons and the Obama's.So if holding someone accountable is "being a Prick" well that it is thenWink

If you think holding a job gets you an insurance think again. Not all jobs offer insurance. There are many small businesses that do not offer that benefit, there are many companies that do not offer that to lower level hourly employees or part timers. Secondly, it is not always affordable. Some jobs pay so low that they cannot pay for insurance. Students out of college have a choice between racking up loan interest or health care. Even those who end up buying insurance find so many inconveniences. There are so many claims denied, there is so much harassment and so many loopholes, so many hoops to jump through that if you survived that car crash your HMO will do what the truck failed to do.

I know of a few people who worked at Humana and were disgusted by the way they treat people. Claim processors have to deny a hefty percentage of claims a month to keep their job. Some even contributed to Sicko.

I will admit that malpractice insurance and the behavior of some people causes the healthcare spike. However, we as a nation are interdependent and can take care of each other. Countries much less developed and sophisticated than us can manage a successful social healthcare system. I did not think it worked and contacted people in France, Scotland, Sweden and Canada and they are more than satisfied with the social healthcare system.

Perhaps Social healthcare is a stretch but fair treatment and affordable treatment should be a benefit all citizens should have. After all we have a right to life and pursuit of happiness. The way I was remember democracy was "For the people, By the People, To the People". There is no word called Government in it. The current "Pricks" in power have a simple say. We cant manage your money, we dont know what is important for you, we dont want to make assumptions for you. You have your money back in the taxes you paid and use it for whatever you feel is appropriate. Governements everywhere have a weak ability to utilize the moneies for the right reasons. After 150-160 years of American Government history you should have enough of a proof to show you that.So atleast the current "Pricks" are honest in understanding a governements limitation.

Excuse Me, but where are you getting your facts from?
Abraham Lincoln, Gettysburg Address, Nov 19 1863 at Gettysburg, Pennsylvania after Union General George Meade defeated Confederate General Robert Lee in the battle of Gettysburg. You may remember the opening line "Four Score and Seven years ago"

The statement by Lincoln in his address was "government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth"

You can read the complete address here. I will not stand people messing up facts and quotes about one of America's greatest Presidents. Oh Yes, Abraham Lincoln was Republicans and the Confederacy was democratic. Oh how the Yanks have changed.

So Yeah there is a big fat Government in the quote. A government elected by the people, from peers to look after the people. Unfortunately, once in power the people forgot the rest of the people. The government is responsible to manage the finances of the nation to ensure stability for the people. The government cannot blame the people for poor tax structure, poor fiscal management in creating economic incentives and most importantly misinforming the people.

Btw we do not get taxes back. What we get back is the interest free loans the government took from us to blow people up.

Now the responsiblty for spending the money wisely is upon the citizens. If the Citizens are so worried about social welfare, They should write a check to a welfare cause for that tax benefit every month. And certainly that $600-$2000 you get as tax rebate later in the year should be given to someone of your favourite charity, if you so mean what you feel badly about. Unfortunately most people want to "talk the talk" but not "walk the talk" so the social welfare has gone down

Have you heard of public referendums. Often local districts will vote on a referendum for improvement in their community. In my community home owners have voted for several referendums which significantly hiked property taxes so that we could invest in our school districts, help underprivileged children and fund the local health care service. We are lucky to live in a city where the University conducts a lot of lucrative research (some of which the lovely govt wants to shut down, if the budget cuts were not enough) to fund our subsidized health care system. It is up to the government to step up and start supporting the communities.

Btw I have to confess about not caring enough about humans too. I am more of a Humane society donor.

Now if you blame the "Pricks" for the sorry state of effort today then perhaps you just are using a personal grudge to blame someone for something general public isnt doingWink

Yes thats exactly it, I should write a whiny emo song about it to while I am at it.

Now to prove the point Lets take it global again, back to Africa. American govt sends the money to the African Govt for all the welfare causes and holds their govts accountable for them. Now if they(the govts) are not able to meet the standards on everything like eductation, hunger, poverty, debts, AIDS programs they are questioned. The hard numbers of how the money is supposed to be spent is the cost of education per child is about $500/month, food is another $500/year, yearly condoms for the parents about $100- so they dont spread around the AIDS anymore, cost is about $2000/family of one.

Mind boggling isn't it. Reverse racism, rape, genocide, AIDS crisis really do not warrant our attention or imposition on foreign governments. Those "Weapons of Mass Destruction" surely are something we have to hold foreign  governments accountable for.

It's like Mary Antoinette and the Queen of Hearts with serious PMS "Let them eat Cake" "Off with their Heads" .

(btw I know it is debatable if Mary Antoinette actually said that, but Eddie Izzard did say "Cake or Death")

Contrast this with the program of the favourite cheerleader of your "non-prick leaders", spend $20 million for education of

You must tell me, the suspense is killing me.

Opens up a educational instituite for education 60 kids in those $20 million

Lets take a vote Whose program is more far rangingWink

Nation Usurped, Check
Jobs Destroyed, Check
People Killed, Check
Education Cutbacks, Check
Healthcare Cutbacks, Check
Utilities Cutbacks, Check
Bigger, Badder military, Check

You are right one definitely is much more far reaching. Not sure if its reaching in the right direction though.

About Heathcare in America, yes the cost of Healthcare is high, but there is the highest level of personal accountability for the healthcare proffesionals in the world. You make a mistake here, you will lose everything including your undergarments. The lawyers ensure that and guess who keeps those personal liability laws aroundWink Who are the Lawyers bidders in this whole thing?.

Law offices of James Sokolove. If I ever take the bar, guess who I am suing.

There have been efforts to provide "Cheap healthcare to poor". But everytime has failed b'cos the patients want a big payday and sue the doctor.

When was it implemented?

The cost of medication is high in this country b'cos most of the research work is done here and now if someone wants all of that to be made free, then perhaps they reached the wrong land.

True, research is expensive. Covance pays upto $2000 in cold hard cash for some studies. Medical research is not easy. However, government cuts back on University research expenses. Lets not forget overpaid pharmaceutical companies, bogus patents and all the swag, fringe and payoffs.

This is a the "land of the free", not the land of the "freeloaders". Here you work hard, make money you get things, when someone sits on their lazy bums, and wants services provided they get pushed to the curbside.

Here you work hard, make money, pay most in taxes, rest in gas and rent, you eat cheap at Toxic Hell and then moan in bed as you cannot afford healthcare, then you lose your job. Your company just won the lottery to get happy sized. Whee!


I am not sure if the defination of the word "Prick" changed in the recent timesLOL

The definition of prick has definitely not changed. Not saying all leaders or nations are saints. Most of them are thorns, but even roses have thorns. It does take some balls to be a prick, must give them credit for that. The last thing you want is a leader who is just a ............

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Aanandaa

IF-Sizzlerz

Aanandaa

Joined: 07 April 2005

Posts: 13876

Posted: 14 April 2008 at 11:45pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by return_to_hades

I will not deny there being a personal angle to my posts. This is an issue I am sensitive about. However, I really do not think I have taken it to a level you are assuming it to be.

As far as my understanding of English is, you did not leave anything for assumptions...Wink..You have admitted about the personal angle, but to what degree, how exactly do you know???Agreed, you may be sensitive about the issue, you have every right to be.....I hope I am not violating any 'human rights' by  'NOT' being so sensitive about it...

Personally, I never considered the term 'masochist' to be a term of grave insult. In that sense I may have stepped the line of cultural inferences and I do apologize for that aspect.

Am not aware of any cultural inferences to the term, either...Just the sound of it and the way it was used, and the very meaning of the word...

The debate is about whether countries 'should' stand up to America or not. Any nation can choose to take a stand, the question remains whether it is feasible and the right thing to do.

Rightoo...

I believe no matter which country we belong to we share the world as humans and we have a responsibility to each other. Sometimes there is a choice between looking after internal interests or doing something that is right for the greater good. That is a delicate balance to strike and it is a difficult choice to make.


In my opinion time has come for the world to stand up to American domination because the limits are being pushed. History is witness that forced governance and misplaced force always leads to backlash. It may not seem something that is reasonable or necessary now, but you never know when things will come and get you. I believe that countries like India are in a position to stand up to America and speak up for our Asian allies who have not yet reached that stage of growth. The European Nations were individually not capable but with the Euro market they have a weighty say. People like Hugo Chavez and Vladimir Putin have been very vocal about their stand on the US which has been applauded by their citizens. (Although I will agree that some of their own actions are highly questionable.)I do not think it would be wrong of any nation to get America to refocus on relevant issues.

If a country or an individual chooses not to take a stand, I can respect that decision. Not every nation is poised or ready to do something dramatic, nor do all the public believe that taking a stand is necessary. It is entirely a matter of personal and national choice and no one can make these things happen it takes place on its own.

The only reason I stated the aspect from the personal aspect as an American is the simple fact on how America's position is justified. If you read the previous few pages there were claims that America is preserving its self interest and looking after its citizens. This is a claim used by Americans as well as others to justify the way America behaves in the world. I felt it was necessary to address this assumption as it is grossly incorrect. If you feel it was unnecessary, irrelevant or extreme in any form so be it. You do not have to accept with it or agree with it.

As for my problem with the American government, I do my part and sometimes do give my two cents to everyone willing or unwilling. I am not debating your viewpoint because I disagree with it, I am debating your viewpoint because I personally fail to see a sense of validity and coherence to it. I was hoping you would rebut with more elaboration on your perspective and the reasons behind it. Unfortunately, you picked an angle in my debate that was completely unintended. Either my language skills have gone bad or I have watched too many episodes of Law & Order.

Nevertheless should you choose to clarify your stance and elaborate and justify it for the debate.

1) Provided America justifiably has many advantages, benefits and pros but is it enough to outweigh the negative fall out of their international policies?
2) You said in an earlier post Indians hate Americans. Why would you think Indians and other people around the world tend to dislike Americans? In your best judgment why do you think there is this dislike.
3) Why do you think India should not take a stand with America? Is India too dependent on America? Or perhaps India is incapable or unable of such a stand? India has better issues to deal with? Or is there absolutely no possible reason why India should take a stand against America?
4) Considering American occupation in Iraq and Afghanistan. Their presence in Israel, their move to have a presence in Middle East, their influence in Pakistan. Considering American long standing conflict with Communism and the communist nations geographically close to India and growing socialist movement in India. Should America have the power and position do you truly believe they will never ever ever try to interfere and influence the affairs in India.
5) Do not take this the wrong way. It seems like you live in the United States and work in the United States yet you claim not to give two hoots with issues concerning USA. Was that an excited utterance or may I ask how do you rationalizing living in a place and not caring about what goes around and affects people around you.

My intent is never to get personal but I do aggressively debate on issues that mean something to me. I will definitely try to soften my approach as it appears you are sensitive to some of the terms and approaches I have not had issues with in the past. And if I have caused any hurt sentiments or feelings in this process I do apologize, I did not expect things to be taken the way you did.


I really have to run now...Just reading yours and CPH's post took me all the time that I have for IF todayOuch...But before going, I would certainly want to answer that one personal question...I will be honest with you RTH...Yes I admit, whatever I said about 'not caring 2 hoots' was all said in the heat of the debate...As a human being, I wish well for everybody around me and if the people around me develop and prosper that's certainly a thing of joy for me...But that's all there is to it...I am not learning more about the current affairs, debating, arguing and distributing free opinions and advices around the world telling them what 'they' should be doing...I believe in doing my bit..I work hard, I persevere to live as an exceptional human being...What America, even if I was in India, I would be doing the same thing...In this whole picture whether the stuff like 'charity' 'working for the well being of the other people' figure or not, is something that is outside the purview of this Debate...I believe if every human being keeps to their duties and focuses on performing them with utmost sincerity, no Gov. can stop the people from prospering...Its the free lunchers who keep worrying about what 'they' should be doing for them to be able to gobble up free lunches...

I said enough already..I really need to go now...Bye!

nitasuni

Senior Member

nitasuni

Joined: 08 August 2007

Posts: 850

Posted: 15 April 2008 at 8:44am | IP Logged

Originally posted by raksha.l

Originally posted by nitasuni

@ raksha.1 This is the veiw of most of the youngsters who are still living in India and dreaming a green card and high salaried job. Sorry to say these youngsters not bothered about the stand India taking in international issues, they want their well being only.

 


Forgive me if I sound too rude Nitasuni- but atleast I apologized even before I said it unlike you going ahead and insulting the whole generation of youth...India came to whatever it was because of a whole generation of laid back, lackluster  kind of people, who FAILED to carry forward the great ideals that our ancestors have set, our freedom fighters would've cringed in their  graves, (Yes, thousands and thousands of nameless, people who gave their life and wealth and everything for the independence, will be cringing  in the graves seeing  the aftermath of biased, greedy and votebank politics and the upbringing of a greedy new generation )looking at the way  people scrambled for day to day bread and living, forgetting the very reason for their being...Today's youth has to be praised for the way we are bringing back the lost values, lost pride and lost prosperity...

@Deepak: Thanks for putting it accross in such a succinct manner...

@Chal-Phek-math: woohoo, only one word :you are tremendousClapClapClap..

Oh, this is the way (by praising all acts of US and thinking they are the only one with brain and ideology ) you youngsters are bringing back all lost values, prosperity and pride, then I have nothing to say. 

 But don't forget, still here are people who are working hard for the future of this nation, who are not corrupt and over ambitious.

  Actually we have to be thankfull to the thounsands  and thousands of labourers who  are toiling in  Middle east.  I saw it with  my eyes the changes they brought to this country. Their earnings are commming to  this country, not to the swiss bank account like my  highly educated uncles and aunts, who came to India once in two years and boasting about US or UK . 



Edited by nitasuni - 15 April 2008 at 9:04am

chal_phek_mat

Senior Member

chal_phek_mat

Joined: 07 March 2008

Posts: 958

Posted: 15 April 2008 at 8:56am | IP Logged
Originally posted by return_to_hades

Originally posted by chal_phek_mat

People that hate/dislike America, Africa, Well in the past 8 years America under the "pricks of todayWink" has more than doubled its own efforts for the African continent in helping in Debt releif, AIDS prevention, hunger etc. That is double of what America was spending before, and 4 times what the rest of your "non-prick" leaders of the world are even thinking of spending. Yes America holds the leaders of the country accountable for the aid and effort that goes in

So after this you say Africa dislikes America, then perhaps the people are not into being accountable for their actions or perhaps you have no idea whether or not they dislike America

Which would you consider to be a greater act of charity. A man making a hundred and giving ten, or a man making a million and giving hundred. Hundred seems such a larger amount than ten, but when taken in context the man giving ten is giving a lot more.

There is no denying that US government does donate a significant amount of money to Africa. However, you have to take that in perspective. It is imperative to note that USA's donation in percentage to it's GNP has been the lowest of any industrialized nation. It may seem like USA is giving a lot, but when you look at all the figures it really is quite paltry.

Why not view the OECD 2007 statistics for Aid versus GNI  Download this PDF and compare yourself.

Whoa US Aid actually went down almost 9% from 2006 to 2007. Whats this Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Luxembourg (have you seen the size of this baby) , Netherlands, Ireland (Guess they do not care for the next potato blight) Spain, Portugal are contributing a larger share than USA.

I will admit to the point that most developed nations are barely meeting their 0.7 commitment,  which is  global concern in debt relief. But I would expect USA to have the ability to do a lot more.

If you are an African nation or any other nation begging for more, The line is It is none of your business how much we make, We pay for over 25% of the amount you are getting just in Govt resources, how we should live our life is our concern.

Only if the world had more people who would be more concerned with what they have than what they dont have

If you are an American asking this question

USA is doing more, if you calculate the sums that private citizens donate

Simple mathematics

You make 70k in salary in USA, you pay 25% in taxes to US Govt, out of that they take X amount and use it for these releif programs, that leaves with 52.5k to spend wherever you want to spend, ok 50k if you take the state and local taxes away, Out of that 17.5k that US Govt took it send $1000 to the African nations

Now out of that 50k if you are so concerned about the well being of African nations you should donate 10k

Now say you are in Denmark, you make 70k in salary, you pay 63% in taxes, so you have 44.1k in taxes, say the Danish Govt spent 10k to African Nations

Yo match their effort you as a citizen have to pay 9k out of your pocket, are you making that kind of an effort?

Now if you are can you please consider Denmark has about 100% employment rate, America has about 75%, so can you please send 12k out of your pocket

You see the Pricks in the American Govt givt you the option what you want to pay for whether it is for your own benefit, like clothes, laptops yada yada vs donating the money. I am sure everyone around in America the "concerned citizens" are sending more money for poor across the worldWink

 

BTW nice attempt of spin bowling hereWink, but the fact remains under the current pricks the aid has more than doubled over the last 8 years and this has been in billions whereas the numbers you quote are in the  hundreds

You might have also heard of CRP (Soil Bank) subsidy that pays farmers not to grow rice, wheat and corn, when it could use that subsidy to buy surplus crops and export to food banks and use the crop residue for ethanol fuel. Did you know Brazil is rapidly moving to ethanol fuel from corn.

LOLLOLLOL Coming from a nation of Agriculture, you ought to know one simple rule of agriculture if you hit the agricultural land with a single set crop and fertilizer you turn the land barren within no time, that is why they give you a subsidy to grow different crop every year. And if you grow corn it takes away the most amount of Pure water(another of those neccessary resources we are going to be short of very soon) and turns land loses overall productivity very fast(and if you see around the world, Land is at a premium, and people absolutely need land to grow food)LOL, so sorry no corny stuff for meWink

Then there is the issue of the continuing racism, discrimination and mistreatment of African Americans. There is still an underground market where African children are whisked off to be sex slaves, bonded labor for wealthy Americans.

I thought you wanted the govt to stop spending your taxes on  those unneccessary things like crime enforcement, etc, Above is clearly illegal thing in America, and if caught you lose your life's earning. And the American media which is so very very open minded about stuff like this have a job to do to find these illegal acts, So you are telling me you know of it, and the media doesnt, have you tried alerting the local police about this, have you tried contacting the local police to notify these things, If yes what happened, If not why not? can you please care to elaborate?

US ignored the UN's plea to send sufficient military assistance in Darfur as other military occupations were of such dire importance. A lot of African's are also Muslims, we cannot forget the racial and religious profiling in USA

Oh I am sorry arent you against America's Imperialistic policies of sending military in another nation, what happened to that "Principled" Stand? Sorry America is closed for business today in meddling in other people's affairs, let America get done with what it has on its hand and then it will certainly join in. And most probably looking at American sentiment, Americans dont like their soldiers to get shot at, so  most probably there wont be much, Lets ask the Nordic nations to contribute, oh yeah and when they do, let us please have them send a sizeable number like 200LOL

Nah, I doubt that we might ever win a popularity contest in Africa for many many years.

Sure anyway they dont like us, why send our money and troops over there they can certainly do without the 25% of the contributionLOL, let us all send that money and troops into our Ghetto's right here in America, policing ka policing ho jayega, and we will get them more money to spend on drugsWink, oh I was talking about the prescriptionLOL

I take that back, we can always poll in Flawrida and OwhyO. In America the land of dreams, anything is possible.

Yep that is why talkers dont win in those statesWink

Coming to Asia(lets be specific India). The people on the other side  of terrorism that India faces are the same people that America is beating up in Afghanistan. So to the very least there are atleast 4-5 million Indian families(of soldiers positioned in the Northern borders) that should be thankful, b'cos there is someone backing their effort, someone with a governmental influence. Now if the Indian ministers cannot be thankful for the lives of their own soldiers then perhaps we should be questioning the "non-prick" Indian leadersWink, Now due to the disjointed efforts of the two countries, the people who plan these attacks have to go to Pakistan to conduct their works, but that is more b'cos that's the only place where they have found safe haven. Now you might dislike the "Pricks" in America if you dont appreciate someone trying to stop bombing the train you are in or the building that you are in. But if you are in one of those buildings and if you are not thankful, then perhaps it is a different storyLOL

Let us remember that when the Air India flight was hijacked or whenever there was any sort of terrorist threat to our nation, America did not give a rat's A$$ how many of Indians died and I do not think they do. Only when America was threatened did they decide that they had to do something.

Sure India has its own army, India should take care of its own citizens the way it wants, why should India always beg for America to fix its problems. Afterall, just like Afghanistan/Taliban is a problem created by America, Kashmir and the terror originates in policies of India

Most Indians realized that in international affairs the USA can be as two faced as they can be. Which is a good reason for India to stand up to the USA. We cannot depend on them. Indians have to be proactive and work in building subcontinental relationships so that we can handle our own affairs and be economically, politically and socially independent and self sufficient. Otherwise not long till India will become the 55th state.

Sure like they did in the handling of the hijacking, I hope Indians see how a economically, politically and socially independant and self sufficient nation handles an issue when some of its innocent civilians are killed, those countries put the fear of god in the perprators and their supporters and bomb them to the other world whereas India doesnt givt a sh*t about is own soldiers who givt their lives to capture the terrorists while releasing them in exchange for a hijackingWink

Lets look at results how many terror attacks in America vs how many terror attacks in India in the last 8 years? whose actions have paid off for their citizens?

About Afghanistan, I am sure you would have loved the life in Afghanistan before the Talban got flushed away. I am sure the Burkhas are very very comfy there and the pleasures of life were out of the world that would make you "dislike" the American effort, what SayWink

How would you like it if someone sliced deep cuts in your body with a knife and then think they did a favor by stitching it back up and giving you some codeine. Shut up already and be grateful, they stitched it back up right.

oh so you like their way of doing thingsLOL 

Let us not forget that it was America who funded the Taliban and installed them in power in the first place. Oooh the red scare, What would we do without McCarthy. All hail McCarthy. 

I have already stated American policies are in their self interest. And off all the people Indians cant point the finger at America without being hypoctic(refer to Kashmir/Bhindranwale/LTTE etc etc). Every nation has their own share of those things and that is the way the world poltics works, every nation that has to grow has to make those choices

Now when America gets into those countries they put their own companies in charge of everything. And Lobbyism makes that possible. And if you think Lobbyism only started 8 years ago then you need to start reading "Washington Post" more often. And Yes the direct competitors are of the European countries. And now they lost out on a big time contracts and theu propents the European politicians lost out on a big payday. Sure they are going to hate/dislike the "Prick leaders of America". But that is just how the world worksWink

Oh America does not just put companies in charge. They put very special companies in charge so that only a few very special people can get very special pay offs. Of course Lobbyism is an age old concept, ever since there has been politics in history there has been Lobbyism. It is how a democratic system attempts to sustain itself.

However, there comes a time when a person with responsibility has to think of their deontological expectations. There is a choice between doing the right thing for the majority interest or  the wrong thing for personal interest. I would not say European nations are saints but they certainly do not cannibalize on their own citizens the way the American government does.

All the countries have it the same way, The Brits had a company called East India Company(I am sure everyone knows how good they wereLOL), The portugese have their own, the French have their ownLOL, short term memory I guessWink

Lets talk local.


About healthcare and social welfare. Well the best chance for healthcare is when you are employed in America. Now if you are unemployed you get state benefits, but then you are suppsed to get a job, once you lose that job you are on your own, there is a line of people for that I am sure you know. And you choose not to make the effort to retain your job, that is too bad sorry after that you are responsible for your own self after that. And for this point everyone agreed including the Clintons and the Obama's.So if holding someone accountable is "being a Prick" well that it is thenWink

If you think holding a job gets you an insurance think again. Not all jobs offer insurance. There are many small businesses that do not offer that benefit, there are many companies that do not offer that to lower level hourly employees or part timers.

Then the employees can go out and buy their own

Secondly, it is not always affordable. Some jobs pay so low that they cannot pay for insurance.(that is the way it is with life, you get what you can afford to make, you want better, work harder, smarter) Students out of college have a choice between racking up loan interest or health care. Even those who end up buying insurance find so many inconveniences. There are so many claims denied, there is so much harassment and so many loopholes, so many hoops to jump through that if you survived that car crash your HMO will do what the truck failed to do.
everyone gets according to their own capability, socialism vs capatilism, I am sure you love the Chinese way of doing these thingsLOL, that fits the requirements that you are making
I know of a few people who worked at Humana and were disgusted by the way they treat people. Claim processors have to deny a hefty percentage of claims a month to keep their job. Some even contributed to Sicko.
As I said get the lawyers to loosen some of their nooses and maybe the insurance companies wont have to keep retainers on those million dollar lawyers of their own
I will admit that malpractice insurance and the behavior of some people causes the healthcare spike. However, we as a nation are interdependent and can take care of each other.

Why, we should first take care of ourselves and then look to helping others, like the Airline announcement, fit the mask on your face first than try helping the minors aroundLOL

Countries much less developed and sophisticated than us can manage a successful social healthcare system. I did not think it worked and contacted people in France, Scotland, Sweden and Canada and they are more than satisfied with the social healthcare system.

Sure you pay far less taxes than them, eventually it all evens out and you still retain more moneyWink


Perhaps Social healthcare is a stretch but fair treatment and affordable treatment should be a benefit all citizens should have. After all we have a right to life and pursuit of happiness.

Lets cut short on the personal liability laws and you will get all of them, unfortunately those are the lobbyists for the "other party" in America, so that will never happen, so eventually your taxes will go up, and then as usual like any govt the govt will bungle it up. Sorry I like it this way I own the choices, not getting something forced on me, democracy you knowWink

The way I was remember democracy was "For the people, By the People, To the People". There is no word called Government in it. The current "Pricks" in power have a simple say. We cant manage your money, we dont know what is important for you, we dont want to make assumptions for you. You have your money back in the taxes you paid and use it for whatever you feel is appropriate. Governements everywhere have a weak ability to utilize the moneies for the right reasons. After 150-160 years of American Government history you should have enough of a proof to show you that.So atleast the current "Pricks" are honest in understanding a governements limitation.

Excuse Me, but where are you getting your facts from?
Abraham Lincoln, Gettysburg Address, Nov 19 1863 at Gettysburg, Pennsylvania after Union General George Meade defeated Confederate General Robert Lee in the battle of Gettysburg. You may remember the opening line "Four Score and Seven years ago"

The statement by Lincoln in his address was "government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth"


You can read the complete address here. I will not stand people messing up facts and quotes about one of America's greatest Presidents. Oh Yes, Abraham Lincoln was Republicans and the Confederacy was democratic. Oh how the Yanks have changed.

it is of the people, for the people, by the people, so the people get to decide what they want(three times People), so give the money back to the people, why have the government own that? I am sorry I am not into rattofying things and who said what, take the principles and apply them to life rather than theorizing about itWink


So Yeah there is a big fat Government in the quote. A government elected by the people, from peers to look after the people. Unfortunately, once in power the people forgot the rest of the people.

Did they really, they sent your money back to the people and along with the responsibility to spend it, isnt that To/By/For part of the whole Govenments responsiblities? they kept whatever they absolutely needed for things that they feel are important functions of the govt and where they have more responsibilities?

The government is responsible to manage the finances of the nation to ensure stability for the people.

Nope you are responsibile for your finances, your money, your responsibility

The government cannot blame the people for poor tax structure, poor fiscal management in creating economic incentives and most importantly misinforming the people.

they arent, you are, you are saying they should do more, they are saying if you want these we send you back the rebate you handle it the way you want it? It is actually the "People's" poor fiscal planning that is responsible for the mess we are in. What did they misinform you about? didnt you start seeing less money being taken out of your paycheck in the last 8 years here? come on you must have looked at your paystub atleast once and comparedConfused

Btw we do not get taxes back. What we get back is the interest free loans the government took from us to blow people up.

Your taxes have gone down in the last 8 years and the brackets are shifting, now that is straight distortion of facts here, come on it is Tax season and you cant be making statements like this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States
Now the responsiblty for spending the money wisely is upon the citizens. If the Citizens are so worried about social welfare, They should write a check to a welfare cause for that tax benefit every month. And certainly that $600-$2000 you get as tax rebate later in the year should be given to someone of your favourite charity, if you so mean what you feel badly about. Unfortunately most people want to "talk the talk" but not "walk the talk" so the social welfare has gone down

Have you heard of public referendums. Often local districts will vote on a referendum for improvement in their community. In my community home owners have voted for several referendums which significantly hiked property taxes so that we could invest in our school districts, help underprivileged children and fund the local health care service.

Good for you, You found a way to spend you dollars for the benefit of others, did you spend all that extra you got into it?

We are lucky to live in a city where the University conducts a lot of lucrative research (some of which the lovely govt wants to shut down, if the budget cuts were not enough) to fund our subsidized health care system. It is up to the government to step up and start supporting the communities.

why? why do you want Govt to tell you everything, we are all adults, if you want to spend your money into research form a foundation and all of the like minded people can contribute, and you will get a tax refund for that too most probably
Btw I have to confess about not caring enough about humans too. I am more of a Humane society donor.

LOLLOLLOL

Now if you blame the "Pricks" for the sorry state of effort today then perhaps you just are using a personal grudge to blame someone for something general public isnt doingWink

Yes thats exactly it, I should write a whiny emo song about it to while I am at it.

I think it is more about taking your own responsibility and running with it, rather than sitting around and waiting the govt to do the stuff, they have too much on their plate

Now to prove the point Lets take it global again, back to Africa. American govt sends the money to the African Govt for all the welfare causes and holds their govts accountable for them. Now if they(the govts) are not able to meet the standards on everything like eductation, hunger, poverty, debts, AIDS programs they are questioned. The hard numbers of how the money is supposed to be spent is the cost of education per child is about $500/month, food is another $500/year, yearly condoms for the parents about $100- so they dont spread around the AIDS anymore, cost is about $2000/family of one.

Mind boggling isn't it. Reverse racism, rape, genocide, AIDS crisis really do not warrant our attention or imposition on foreign governments. Those "Weapons of Mass Destruction" surely are something we have to hold foreign  governments accountable for.

It's like Mary Antoinette and the Queen of Hearts with serious PMS "Let them eat Cake" "Off with their Heads" .

(btw I know it is debatable if Mary Antoinette actually said that, but Eddie Izzard did say "Cake or Death")

Contrast this with the program of the favourite cheerleader of your "non-prick leaders", spend $20 million for education of

You must tell me, the suspense is killing me.

Opens up a educational instituite for education 60 kids in those $20 million

Lets take a vote Whose program is more far rangingWink

Nation Usurped, Check
Jobs Destroyed, Check
People Killed, Check
Education Cutbacks, Check
Healthcare Cutbacks, Check
Utilities Cutbacks, Check
Bigger, Badder military, Check

You are right one definitely is much more far reaching. Not sure if its reaching in the right direction though.

hmmm nice attempt of spinning, but let me just explain what you are saying hereLOL 

hmmm

you are looking at one way saying someone spent 1/2 million dollar/student for their healthcare/education/lifestyle. VS someone else spent $200 for the same in a less luxurous style but did it for a larger group and you are saying

you prefer the approach with the more money in a continent where more and more are dying every year for lack of foodLOL

Now that is certainly looking at it from colored glasses



 

About Heathcare in America, yes the cost of Healthcare is high, but there is the highest level of personal accountability for the healthcare proffesionals in the world. You make a mistake here, you will lose everything including your undergarments. The lawyers ensure that and guess who keeps those personal liability laws aroundWink Who are the Lawyers bidders in this whole thing?.

Law offices of James Sokolove. If I ever take the bar, guess who I am suing.

There have been efforts to provide "Cheap healthcare to poor". But everytime has failed b'cos the patients want a big payday and sue the doctor.

When was it implemented? they try these workshops on volunteer basis, keep your eyes open, but you have to sign a waiver, that you will not file a lawsuit against the medical practitioners involved

The cost of medication is high in this country b'cos most of the research work is done here and now if someone wants all of that to be made free, then perhaps they reached the wrong land.

True, research is expensive. Covance pays upto $2000 in cold hard cash for some studies. Medical research is not easy. However, government cuts back on University research expenses.

And that is the part of ideology of the the people in power, they are cutting back on stem cell research on those grounds, and whethter you agree or not you have to accept they are standing by their principles

Lets not forget overpaid pharmaceutical companies, bogus patents and all the swag, fringe and payoffs.


You take the risk, you earn the money, you work hard you make money, that is how capatilism works, and that is the only system that seems to be working, the whole communist thing went down the drums, the other nations are trying hybrid things. I like it this way I control more of my own destiny, than some politician doing it that is why I prefer this country over others

This is a the "land of the free", not the land of the "freeloaders". Here you work hard, make money you get things, when someone sits on their lazy bums, and wants services provided they get pushed to the curbside.

Here you work hard, make money, pay most in taxes(oh these are the least here, then how about 60-70% in your favourite nordic nations? vs 25 here?), rest in gas and rent(much cheaper than other places, (do you know how much gas costs in India/Eupope?), you eat cheap at Toxic Hell (no commentsWink)and then moan in bed as you cannot afford healthcare, then you lose your job. Your company just won the lottery to get happy sized. Whee!

Part of life, want a safe secure job, join the State bank of IndiaLOL


I am not sure if the defination of the word "Prick" changed in the recent timesLOL

The definition of prick has definitely not changed. Not saying all leaders or nations are saints. Most of them are thorns, but even roses have thorns. It does take some balls to be a prick, must give them credit for that. The last thing you want is a leader who is just a ............

actually it changes based upon the liking of a person and the locationLOL

Also bear in mind over 50% of the tax money comes from the wealthy, the Bill Gates, the Steve Jobs, The Buffets etc, so when you are asking for more money to be spent you are asking for their money to be spent, not your moneyLOL The same people you have a problem with making so much money, the tax money the saive they in turn are putting the money towards aid and research foundationsWink

whereas the not so wealthy, common man are grabbing to their money are not spending it, cribbing about how much others make and whine about how bad it isLOL

 

Note:

Here the You is not you personally, it is a generic term towards everyone including you and me, just to make sure it doesnt sound personal

return_to_hades

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return_to_hades

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Posts: 20444

Posted: 15 April 2008 at 6:53pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by raksha.l

Originally posted by return_to_hades

I will not deny there being a personal angle to my posts. This is an issue I am sensitive about. However, I really do not think I have taken it to a level you are assuming it to be.

As far as my understanding of English is, you did not leave anything for assumptions...Wink..You have admitted about the personal angle, but to what degree, how exactly do you know???Agreed, you may be sensitive about the issue, you have every right to be.....I hope I am not violating any 'human rights' by  'NOT' being so sensitive about it...

You accused (insinuated?) me of being inconsiderate to other forumers, and debating in an aggressive and inappropriate manner. You accused (insinuated?) me of stooping to a lower level and being thick about not accepting a viewpoint. I take objection to that.

Being sensitive and passionate about a subject does not equal to being aggressive. All I did was respond to each point with a counterpoint and put the ball back in your court. Thats what debate is about, its not about agreeing with the other person but presenting a very strong counterpoint. Apart from perhaps a connotative difference in infering a few words, there was nothing to be upset about.

Personally, I never considered the term 'masochist' to be a term of grave insult. In that sense I may have stepped the line of cultural inferences and I do apologize for that aspect.

Am not aware of any cultural inferences to the term, either...Just the sound of it and the way it was used, and the very meaning of the word...

There is nothing wrong or insulting in the word masochist. The word does not have to be associated with sexuality, it is a sociological concept to. Often the word masochist can be used as rhetoric. An ordinary human would not appreciate being exploited in any economic, physical or social form and would take objection to it. So when you take the word masochist in its rhetoric aspect it asks that you would behave like an ordinary person then why do you not object to these things. Nothing to do with accusing someone wanting to be tied up in a slave collar or anything negative like that.

5) Do not take this the wrong way. It seems like you live in the United States and work in the United States yet you claim not to give two hoots with issues concerning USA. Was that an excited utterance or may I ask how do you rationalizing living in a place and not caring about what goes around and affects people around you.
 


I really have to run now...Just reading yours and CPH's post took me all the time that I have for IF todayOuch...But before going, I would certainly want to answer that one personal question...I will be honest with you RTH...Yes I admit, whatever I said about 'not caring 2 hoots' was all said in the heat of the debate...As a human being, I wish well for everybody around me and if the people around me develop and prosper that's certainly a thing of joy for me...But that's all there is to it...I am not learning more about the current affairs, debating, arguing and distributing free opinions and advices around the world telling them what 'they' should be doing...I believe in doing my bit..I work hard, I persevere to live as an exceptional human being...What America, even if I was in India, I would be doing the same thing...In this whole picture whether the stuff like 'charity' 'working for the well being of the other people' figure or not, is something that is outside the purview of this Debate...I believe if every human being keeps to their duties and focuses on performing them with utmost sincerity, no Gov. can stop the people from prospering...Its the free lunchers who keep worrying about what 'they' should be doing for them to be able to gobble up free lunches...

I said enough already..I really need to go now...Bye!



If everybody sincerely performed their duty then there would not be  problem. However, the direction of duty being performed depends on the information a person has received. Sometimes people do wrong things too in the name of duty.

Even if an online forum does not influence your decisions, choices, knowledge or sense of duty there are always factors influencing what you choose to perform as duty. There is always a constant conscious or subconscious exchange of opinions and information.

I have an opinion and I have no qualms about expressing it. For me it is not telling people what they should do, but expressing what I feel about what ought to be done and why. It is an invitation to interaction and exchange. For me debates, discussions and distribution of opinion has been very fruitful. There is not one but many sides to things and it has helped me evolve my perspective. For me having viewpoints challenged and challenging others back creates a sense of conviction in a personal belief system. As Socrates Said "A life unexamined is not worth living"

Not saying that free opinion is the right way or the best way. In fact it means you are most likely to die lynched by a mob. Wink Takes all kinds the ones who mind their own business and live a good life and those annoying prats who poke their nose and open their big mouth to find out what is the meaning of 'good life'.

return_to_hades

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return_to_hades

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Posts: 20444

Posted: 15 April 2008 at 10:19pm | IP Logged
The following post is in response to chal_phek_mets post right Here

I think you are confusing democratic socialism with communism, as well as micro and macro level principles.

Every individual has the ability to make their own decisions. We could theoretically live on a to each his own principle. The result is anarchy as even the people with best interests will encroach and infringe upon others or cause harm in the process. Even in a free market or society there is a government.

Even though people occurs three times in Lincoln's quote, government is the important word. Unlike those who rule or dictate, a government is a body that governs. People follow pursue their interests but are governed by rules that prevent them chaos and infringement.

Unlike a communist government in a democracy the government is of the people. Ideally a diversity of people is represented so the government takes from the common interests, common goals to create governing rules that create harmony. It is by the people so that a diverse amount of people can choose people who represents their interests best. Ideally the chosen representative presents a balance of interest. For the the people means that the government is accountable to its people. Governing is not a right or power, but a service they are expected to perform any power whatsoever is with the basic principle of serving.

I am not talking about equal distribution of wealth making sure everything is exactly the same. Peter and Paul are two different people with two very different wants and needs. What I am talking about is democratic socialism, where a level playing field is created so Peter and Paul both have the equal opportunity to fairly pursue their wants and needs while preventing either from exploiting the other to do so.

Foreign Policy, Infrastructure, Fiscal growth, Education, Development these are all responsibilities of the government to ensure welfare and a equity.

Of course I am not asking the government to be everyone's financial adviser and manager. On the microeconomic level individuals and businesses manage their income.However, on a macroeconomic level governments have to manage the income of the nation. They have an economy to look after. They have to have a fiscal policy that gives everyone a fair opportunity and incentive to manage their finances, as well as prevents misuse the finances. This means the government carefully manages their expenditure, their interest rates and their tax structure.

When I say the tax structure is flawed, I am not complaining about high taxes. The way people are taxed, the way the brackets are structured, the way breaks and penalties are given is skewed. Personally, I am all for paying high taxes in a structured economy. The higher the taxes the more resources government has to serve me and my community.

Scandinavian countries may have high tax rates yet their citizens are happier and healthier than those in the United States with lower tax rates. That is because they get a lot of social rights.

When I speak for socialized healthcare I am not talking to create a system of freeloaders. Other countries have done this without such a problem.

The reason I call for socialized health care because health is the most basic physical need of a person. In fact I believe education, health, food, shelter and clothing are basic human necessities that must be fulfilled for a successful society. Every citizen must have equal access to to fulfilling these basic needs.

A wiser citizen will still manage their finances better even in a high tax stringent tax structure so that they can buy Gucci instead of generic clothes, to have caviar and champagne instead of simple bread and milk, to buy a mansion instead of a community shelter, to choose private expensive schools and private hospitals with private rooms, personal nurse, TV and internet in the room. However, basic essential needs must be fulfilled, it is the right thing to do in a democratic society. I too cringe to have my money pay for someone else's medications and doctors visit, but it offers them health and comfort what is so bad about that.

Btw the offerings of free health care advertisements you speak about are not subsidized health care offerings but research facilities that invite patients to come to them and offer free health care in exchange for free treatment. After lab test they need clinical trials.
Let us move to the topic on hand 'Standing Up To America' and how all this ties in to it.

There are several reasons to stand up to America. Firstly the responsibility of a nation is to look after the welfare of its own citizens. It would be prudent of the American government to learn to run its own country efficiently, before telling others how to run their country.

American health care system is in shambles, the school system is failing, natural disaster management is dysfunctional,the tax structure is erratic, the economy is going into recession, the fiscal policy is not really addressing the situation, unemployment rates keep increasing. The government needs to fix that before trying to fix other nations.

Secondly the government offers interferes in other nations only to serve the interest of few select people within itself and it's affiliates. When a nation is prosperous, citizens are happy and they have resources to expend it is expected as a good member of the international community to offer help and guidance.

When I oppose interference in Iraq and support assistance in Darfur, I am not of a rigid no interference policy. It is because I think there is a priority of things.

Taliban was an atrocious regime and what happened on 09/11, it was fair of America to retaliate in Afghanistan. However, they should have focused on capturing the guilty masterminds and fostering stability in Afghanistan before moving elsewhere.

I am not going to say Saddam was a good person or Iraqi people were happy, but there was a status quo in Iraq. Darfur with the genocide, rape and abuse was a much more pressing situation.

There is no denying that American presence in Afghanistan and Iraq has benefited the nations in someways. However, it was done for the wrong selfish reasons and American citizens have bee exploited and shortchanged in the process.

Thirdly a nation must secure itself. I am sure every Indian wants India to be a nation that is self reliant and sustainable. They want their democratic government to work towards serving a common national good. Standing up to America for a nation is speaking up that we as a nation do not need America to be our crutch we will stand on our own and I am sure fellow nations will agree. Those countries that are economically stable state that we can be a more responsible nation than America, a power that strives to serve its citizens and then pass on the welfare to other nations. Countries like India who still have internal affairs can make a statement that America is not a role model, they would rather be a nation that serves its citizens first and foremost and then assists other nations with good priorities.

Finally the biggest reason to stand up to America is because it is evident that American government serves only itself. Not America, Not the world, but itself. It is securing the future of no one but a few select people. If these few are allowed to carry on it is no telling how many more nations they will use to be the prosperous, wealthy powerful few.

Which is why I am not asking America to spend money on any other nation. I am expecting that they be a good government and look after themselves first.

This topic was about America as a nation and the government that represents it, not the Private American citizen. Hence, my statistics of official American contribution make more sense. A nation with a strong society and reliable government is able to do much more through collective power than on its own. American government needs to stop gloating about looking after the world since they aint doing nothing. Similarly people also who gloat about doing something but not contributing or the other kind who do not contribute but whine also have to do something to work towards making this a better nation.

Private citizens like Steve Jobs and Bill Gates who are philanthropic show the ethical responsibility of someone with power giving back. Their money is not American Money or USD, it is their money earned through their multinational corporation. America can do so much if it wants to, but the government wants to serve its personal interest. The politicians want to get rich and do not give about anyone.

Btw

- Not growing corn for a season makes sense, but for five years and more and being paid for it is ridiculous. Everyone knows that a rotation of grain crop, native prairie, cover crop allows for soil to replenish its nutrients and increase yields, whereas barren land needs much more umaintainence and is weakened by weeds.
- In a democratic society the income residue of a private citizen is what is left for them after taxes are paid. The nation is responsible to look after the citizens and then extend aid. The private citizen is not obliged. Which is why the private citizens aid was more far reaching and valuable as it was a supererogatory act, devoid of self serving purpose and also that the private citizen was not exploiting their dependents to cause harm to others.
- Stem cell research is not being banned for economic reasons, but for "other" religions. Even when Universities have foreign investors that will not only fund research but bettering the campus - US govt wants to put brakes to it.
- Europeans were Imperialists, they are not now. Heck they were not just Imperialists, they fought Crusades, Conducted purges and inquisitions. Most have learned from Imperialism.Also the Danes, Goths, Celts, Normans stopped conquering centuries ago we still do not judge them by that. The present counts.



Well on the whole this argument is endless because the conflict is between two ideologies 'to each his own' versus 'from each by their means to all according to their needs'. There is no clear right or wrong here.

Some people will always believe and fairly so that each man is for his own. Market forces determine everything and every person succeeds or fails on their own merit. Each person is an island intended to survive and sustain himself or herself on their own. Each person looks after their own welfare. If someone lives by that philosophy fine. Its a form of social Darwinism. Only the socially fittest will survive. Moral theorists call it egoism, what is right or wrong is determined by what serves personal interest the best.

Personally, I do not think my consciousness can live with that attitude. To me we are social people and we have ethical and moral obligations not only to ourselves but other people as well. I prefer to be utilitarian where the right thing to do is what causes maximum benefits to most amount of people.

Consider that the same right wing nationalists who support the current administration whine about outsourcing they are demanding interference. If it were a true market economy outsource away the demand and supply of labor determine who gets hired, where and why.

I also cannot forget that people who believed success or failure was based on personal merit, believed that white people warranted more personal merit as they were more successful. Why else would he be the master and colored man the slave.

To me as a nation or as an individual I would do the right thing instead of the self serving thing.

Indian youth (not all but a lot) are divided into two parts. One is a generation that is bedazzled by communist values. Many youth are joining communist parties. They believe wealth can be shared equally and all will be peachy. So they are rapidly becoming communist activists. The other half is bedazzled by capitalist values. The potential of limitless income and benefit lures them and they strive for free market to see how far they can go with money.

Ultimately in ethical, social and political ideology balance is the key. Communism, Capitalism, Utilitarianism, Egoism, they are all perfect world concepts. Heck even democracy is a perfect world concept. Everyone finds their way.

SholaJoBhadkey

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SholaJoBhadkey

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Posted: 16 April 2008 at 9:03am | IP Logged

Op-Ed Contributor
Abolish All 'Taxes'
A light-hearted aside to this debate Smile 


By RICHARD CONNIFF
Published: April 15, 2008
Old Lyme, Conn. 

THE word "tax" was never pretty. But it has lately become the ugliest word in the English language, right up there with its evil twin, "death." Even in time of war, ostensibly patriotic politicians blithely pledge to slay any tax that rears its ghastly head. Public officials dodge work they know desperately needs doing because of the possibility that it may cause an increase in taxes.

It's time to take a page from the conservative playbook, the one where they reframe the debate by changing the language for instance, calling the "estate tax" a "death tax," or making equal rights for same-sex partners a "protection of marriage" issue. I propose we stop saying "taxes" and start calling them "dues."

Yes, this is a little sneaky. Some conservatives may even call it Orwellian, and they ought to know. But the word "dues" also plays into the psychology of group identity, and that can work to the benefit of conservatives and liberals alike. Consider that "tax" comes from the Latin for "appraise" with punitive overtones of "censure" or "fault," as if wage-earners have done something wrong by their labors. "Dues," in contrast, is rooted in social obligation and duty.

"Look," I said to a conservative friend, "simply saying 'hard earned' every time you say 'tax dollars' doesn't make bureaucrats think twice before spending. But spending other peoples' dues, now that's not so easy." He muttered darkly. With a liberal friend, I mentioned a study showing that words like "social" and "contract" make people more willing to pay their share. "But I probably wouldn't like paying dues either," he replied. "The government isn't my kind of club."

So this will be an uphill struggle. But we need language to remind us that this is our government, and that we thrive because of the schools and transit systems and 10,000 other services that exist only because we have joined together. Instead of denouncing taxes, politicians would do better to appeal to the patriotic corners of our hearts that warm to phrases like "we the people." "Taxation" is a throwback to the time when kings picked our pockets. "Paying my dues," a phrase popularized in the jazz music world, is language by which we can stand together as Americans.

Richard Conniff is the author, most recently, of "The Ape in the Corner Office."



Edited by SholaJoBhadkey - 16 April 2008 at 9:05am

Angelic_J

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Angelic_J

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Joined: 19 June 2005

Posts: 13243

Posted: 16 April 2008 at 1:51pm | IP Logged

Wowwwwwwwwwww there are essay's being written hereLOL I wish I cud write like that but since I cannot I am gonna sum this up in the easiest way I canBig smile

I DO NOT detest US at all but yes I am not a big fan of some of their policies Stern SmileStern Smile I don't like the way they went in Iraq and mashed up the whole placeOuch This war against "Terrorism" that US is fighting is a war without defined success so it's going to carry on till infinity or atleast till US pulls out which doesnt seem likely until the next electionStern Smile US was and still is a faboulous country but some of the gov. have not been so faboulous. Take for example both the Bush (Senior and Junior) administraions, they have done nothing except create havoc in other countires (Afghanistan, Iraq etc.) What I don't like about US is the way they act like the daddy of those countries that lick their you-know-whatStern Smile I believe US should take a back seat for sometime and stop butting into the affairs of other countriesBig smile

Coming back to the original topic, I do very much admire Castro but I honestly don't think communism is the answer to US's neocolonialism unless the communist's can learn to work with capitalization which goes totally against their viewpointsLOL

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