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Who dares fight with America? (Page 4)

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return_to_hades

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return_to_hades

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Posted: 13 April 2008 at 2:17pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by raksha.l

Originally posted by return_to_hades

Originally posted by raksha.l

Originally posted by return_to_hades

Originally posted by raksha.l

Can anybody please take the pain of explaining to me as to why one should 'fight' with America in the first place???Ermm

The debate is over moral and political ideology. America considers itself the most powerful country in the world and believes it can manipulate the world. In recent times the American government have taken some very questionable actions, that does not adhere to the principles of freedom, liberty and personal respect it stands for. Certain Americans visiting other countries have often been snotty, pompous or misbehaved. The point is someone wants to show America their place and take delusions away.

What's wrong in considering oneself as the most powerful???Just shows its high self image as a country, rightoo?...and as for people behaving snotty, well I blame the others who put them on a high pedestal, otherwise pompous behaviour can make one look like a fool if no one cared for it..Wink..And I agree about someone letting them know about how wrong their recent actions were..

There is a difference between self confidence and over confidence, there is a difference between taking pride in your achievements and downright disgusting arrogance. If one cannot see the difference between these extremes in the United States then it is time to take off those rose colored sunglasses handed out by the administration.

There are extremes everywhere...Show me one institution which has no extremes...

You mean to say because flaws exist we just let them be. We accept the flaws and do absolutely nothing to make a change for the positive.

Who said Americans do not make a fool of themselves. In fact they make complete gigantic assholes of themselves. The sad thing is that the people who do so are completely oblivious to it. No one really is putting Americans on a pedestal, it is simply idiots who assume that people worship them who end up making bigger fools of themselves.

So what are we complaining about, if they were making a fool of themselves already???Its an individual choice, I guess, rightoo?And as for the highlighted thing, care to explain?

It is because it is offensive and intrusive to other people. I am not sure where a simple self explanatory statement needs to be explained, but nevertheless a lot of American people assume that countries are grateful for what Americans do and hold Americans in esteem and act righteous but are eventually in for a very rude awakening.

We as humans believe in a basic principle of respect for people. Some Americans not only fail in respecting people, but they are hypocritical about it. They talk of freedom and equality, but have no idea what it is. They talk about building a nation on Judeo-Christian values but have no idea what these noble values are.

These kind of hypocrats exist everywhere, why pickcing on Americans only???

Because of the visible negative impact on America and the world.

Is the word 'fight' or 'compete'???D'oh

I am not sure what the correct word is. However, I would say a more appropriate terms would be 'reality check'  'plant their feet back on the ground'  'unplug the power trip'

'Reality check' is something that each country has to do within itself, how can another country help???Here aren't we talking about if India can 'fight' America??

You are completely misunderstanding the point. This is not a physical fight or even an argument.

What made you think that I understood it that way???Smile

We are talking about making an ideological point. When it comes to an ideological revolution one man can take on a nation. We are coming to a point where not just every country but  a large cross section of the American population wants to work toward a change that changes and improves American ideology in respect to people and the world.

I agree that America should work on its strategies but tell me which country doesn't need to???Change is needed...But again, why pick only on America, as if the rest of the world is perfect..Every country has to change from time to time, to be able to stay atop...America too needs to realize its shortcomings and work on them, simple...I agree with Americans trying to work towards an improvement in the American ideology, but what has the rest of the world to do with it???Aren't they supposed to focus on themselves first???

Fine, let us barge into your house, tell you how your family should be run, be discriminatory about your ethnicity, color of skin and religion, let us take your money and use it for our benefit, let us exploit your family for our benefits. Please be silent and endure everything that we do. After all it is hardly your problem. Our people will resolve our ideology. Why don't you worry about fixing your family. If you were better you would not be exploited in the first place right?

I am not sure why every Indian grows up hating America ( even I did, until I saw the other side of the fence)...

Hate is a strong word, but they really really really really don't like us. Not just Indians, Europeans, South Americans, Canadians, Mexicans, Asians, Africans pretty much the rest of the world does not seem to think highly of us. It's the pricks that run the country that creates a bad name for everyone. It is wrong for people to make assumptions about Americans but they cannot be blamed as it is natural to be cautious. Once they get to know a more diverse cross section of Americans they will perhaps change their mind.

Ok, that's your opinion that 'pricks' have been running the country...The rest I agree and that's why I say, its more a case of weak people disliking the strong and anything to do with strength.....Thanks for responding to my questions...

It is not an opinion, but a fact that the country is being run by pricks. Either one has not learned better or they are just part of the self serving loop of pricks.

Are you telling me that India is being run by Saints???D'oh

Could you elaborate how you are coming to this interpretation. It really is mind-boggling and I would love to be enlightened.

This is not the case of weak disliking the strong. It is a case of standing up for the right against the wrong.

There are a lot of wrongs within every country, first they better focus on that...People should first stand up against wrongs in their own respective countries...Gov.s should stop playing with its people before assuming a self righteous position against evils of the world...

Amen to the bold.

Again if you are a masochist who enjoys being exploited by foreign governments fine by me. Whatever floats your boat.

Do not assume the rest of the world is weak. Just because they don't strut their stuff does not mean they have nothing.

A lot of times they should have something to strut..Wink...Who said the rest of the world is weak??I was just stating a fact ' that weak always dislikes the strong'...Wink




BTW, cool down RTH..No need to use such strong language...This is just a debate and unfortunately none of what we decide here is going to be presented in tomorw's parliament session in India..

I am not  pro America(I am actually stamped as 'chak de India' ask Anshu/RajWinkLOL) or whatever, I am just stating the facts from the other side of the fence...

Why would you ever think I am anti-American. I am an American citizen and proud of it. I am lucky to live in a country where I can dare to strongly criticize our government to the point of being provocative and controversial. I want to clarify that my statements also come from the American side of the fence. The Americans that the rest of the world really does not know. The cornfields across the Midwest, small town USA, teenagers & college students who want to live another day, make a difference and wake up one day knowing that there is a better place out there.

Really ordinary small town Americans who would really like to live in harmony with the world. A kid who hopes his grandpa does not have to die because they cannot afford surgery. The child in the ghetto whose father was just shot dead and he prays that at least he can grow up and go to college someday.

Ordinary Americans who hate the fact that wherever we go people look at us with disdain. They look at the American passport and instantly decide that we are to be disliked. Ordinary Americans who are tired of proving to others that just live every other human being we are very ordinary and good people.

All this just because a few select people choose to abuse power, to lie, deceive, cheat, exploit us and the rest of the world to serve their own selfish needs. All this because a few of our peers believe that we are Gods gift to the world and expect to be treated like that.

Many Americans are trying to make our nation a better nation. One that is powerful, because we want to be proud Americans; but a power that is respected not loathed and feared. To bring about permanent change we need the rest of the world, we are not delusional about our abilities, no lasting revolution ever took place without support from the world. It is not a call to take arms or forget about your internal conflicts, but to stand up as what is right as a human. Who dares fight America this topic asks, anyone who dares to stand up for what is right be they American or not.

Cool down? Strong Words? Perhaps if you were on this side of the fence I am in you would be asking - why not stronger! why not harder! why not more fire!

It was nice talking to you btw, I have always liked the way you come up with a detailed POV on whatever topic you were presenting your views on...Clap

Edited to add this: Just ignored a few questionable statements , as I just want to go with the general point you were trying to make, and did not certainly want to speak in the same language..I hope you noticed that...

Peace Out Homie!


Edit: While this topic is more about India challenging American ideology, I do believe it is a more global issue. The reason I bring the internal American perspective is because the treatment of American citizens has been used to justify American action and I want to elaborate that the assumption that American action is utilized to serve the nations self interest and henceforth justified is wrong. As a former Indian and a person of Indian descent I feel it right that India stand up for a global cause. Anyone who has any further questions can contact me via PM.


Edited by return_to_hades - 13 April 2008 at 3:58pm

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Aanandaa

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Posted: 13 April 2008 at 5:57pm | IP Logged
^^Whoa whoa, easy on getting personal bud...I tried telling nicely but you seem to be insisting on it...While I am here to present my views, I am in no mood to take this to a personal level and the name calling that's been happening there in...Strange you are talking about freedom and respect when you yourself seem to be having none of any such concerns for just your fellow debator's ...Making strong points is one thing, but using words like 'masochist' and hurling personal insults is another thing...Who cares whether you are a proud American or whatever, I seriously have no interest in such personal stuff...You have a problem with America's Gov. well, then fight for it..Every fight/revoultion starts with one person, just like that student who you put up in that other post....Such long speeches on a virtual ground to the people like me who care two hoots about what America does or doesn't, wont help...I am still an Indian and will be an Indian at heart till I die and will always want it to first look into itself and grow and then talk about other countries....What I talk about America is the positive that I have observed and by which I am being benefitted .PERIOD...

Sorry it bothers me that you were not able to take my POV just because it differs from yours, but I am not sorry or not being a 'masochist' by not paying back in the same coin, its just that I am self secured and know that I didn't have to stoop down to the same level, jut to make a silly point...Get that?

No matter what you may fancy it to be,this debate is still about whether countries could stand up against America and its policies ...And I refuse to indulge in anything otherwise ...Sayonara!


return_to_hades

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return_to_hades

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Posted: 13 April 2008 at 9:01pm | IP Logged
I will not deny there being a personal angle to my posts. This is an issue I am sensitive about. However, I really do not think I have taken it to a level you are assuming it to be.

Personally, I never considered the term 'masochist' to be a term of grave insult. In that sense I may have stepped the line of cultural inferences and I do apologize for that aspect.

The debate is about whether countries 'should' stand up to America or not. Any nation can choose to take a stand, the question remains whether it is feasible and the right thing to do.

I believe no matter which country we belong to we share the world as humans and we have a responsibility to each other. Sometimes there is a choice between looking after internal interests or doing something that is right for the greater good. That is a delicate balance to strike and it is a difficult choice to make.

In my opinion time has come for the world to stand up to American domination because the limits are being pushed. History is witness that forced governance and misplaced force always leads to backlash. It may not seem something that is reasonable or necessary now, but you never know when things will come and get you. I believe that countries like India are in a position to stand up to America and speak up for our Asian allies who have not yet reached that stage of growth. The European Nations were individually not capable but with the Euro market they have a weighty say. People like Hugo Chavez and Vladimir Putin have been very vocal about their stand on the US which has been applauded by their citizens. (Although I will agree that some of their own actions are highly questionable.)I do not think it would be wrong of any nation to get America to refocus on relevant issues.

If a country or an individual chooses not to take a stand, I can respect that decision. Not every nation is poised or ready to do something dramatic, nor do all the public believe that taking a stand is necessary. It is entirely a matter of personal and national choice and no one can make these things happen it takes place on its own.

The only reason I stated the aspect from the personal aspect as an American is the simple fact on how America's position is justified. If you read the previous few pages there were claims that America is preserving its self interest and looking after its citizens. This is a claim used by Americans as well as others to justify the way America behaves in the world. I felt it was necessary to address this assumption as it is grossly incorrect. If you feel it was unnecessary, irrelevant or extreme in any form so be it. You do not have to accept with it or agree with it.

As for my problem with the American government, I do my part and sometimes do give my two cents to everyone willing or unwilling. I am not debating your viewpoint because I disagree with it, I am debating your viewpoint because I personally fail to see a sense of validity and coherence to it. I was hoping you would rebut with more elaboration on your perspective and the reasons behind it. Unfortunately, you picked an angle in my debate that was completely unintended. Either my language skills have gone bad or I have watched too many episodes of Law & Order.

Nevertheless should you choose to clarify your stance and elaborate and justify it for the debate.

1) Provided America justifiably has many advantages, benefits and pros but is it enough to outweigh the negative fall out of their international policies?
2) You said in an earlier post Indians hate Americans. Why would you think Indians and other people around the world tend to dislike Americans? In your best judgment why do you think there is this dislike.
3) Why do you think India should not take a stand with America? Is India too dependent on America? Or perhaps India is incapable or unable of such a stand? India has better issues to deal with? Or is there absolutely no possible reason why India should take a stand against America?
4) Considering American occupation in Iraq and Afghanistan. Their presence in Israel, their move to have a presence in Middle East, their influence in Pakistan. Considering American long standing conflict with Communism and the communist nations geographically close to India and growing socialist movement in India. Should America have the power and position do you truly believe they will never ever ever try to interfere and influence the affairs in India.
5) Do not take this the wrong way. It seems like you live in the United States and work in the United States yet you claim not to give two hoots with issues concerning USA. Was that an excited utterance or may I ask how do you rationalizing living in a place and not caring about what goes around and affects people around you.

My intent is never to get personal but I do aggressively debate on issues that mean something to me. I will definitely try to soften my approach as it appears you are sensitive to some of the terms and approaches I have not had issues with in the past. And if I have caused any hurt sentiments or feelings in this process I do apologize, I did not expect things to be taken the way you did.

SolidSnake

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Posted: 14 April 2008 at 1:16am | IP Logged
Well, coming to how India views US, it is largly positive. Only communists and certain group of people are anti-US for obvious reasons. And before standing up to US, how about standing up to China/Pak first.

nitasuni

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Posted: 14 April 2008 at 2:51am | IP Logged
@ raksha.1 This is the veiw of most of the youngsters who are still living in India and dreaming a green card and high salaried job. Sorry to say these youngsters not bothered about the stand India taking in international issues, they want their well being only.

@ SolidSnake I have no politics, but can not agree with the international policies of US. No outsider(country) is entitled to interfere in the internal problems of other independent nations. US is acting as a global police, which is not their job. They poke their nose every where they could.
I agree with RTH, she said it more powerfully than me.

SolidSnake

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Posted: 14 April 2008 at 4:02am | IP Logged

Originally posted by nitasuni

@ SolidSnake I have no politics, but can not agree with the international policies of US. No outsider(country) is entitled to interfere in the internal problems of other independent nations. US is acting as a global police, which is not their job. They poke their nose every where they could.
I agree with RTH, she said it more powerfully than me.

You got me wrong there. I too detest some of their policies and their preachy attitude but to me what is happening in our neighbourhood and what our good neighbours are doing is much more important because that is of direct consequence to us.

About US global cop role and interfering in others matters, it interferes others matters only if they give into them. (bole to woh doosre ke phate mein taang adaate hain kyonki doose unko apne phate mein taang adaane dete hain) Why these Arab nations have US bases if they are so critical of US policies? US would not have been able to invade Iraq they did not have the support of their allies in the Gulf and these bases, they have troops and war machinery there since decades. Similarly if any future military action is taken against Iran I can assure you these bases'll be used and they'll have the support of likes of Saudi Arabia because of well known reasons.

Similar is the case with Afganistan, because they had bases in Pakistan and support of Pakistan Govt (not to mention anti-Taliban forces) they were able to invade Afganistan and defeat Taliban. Personally I don't think invasion of Iraq and Afganistan was wrong but they stayed there for too long, they should have handed over the power to locals immidietely (esp in Iraq).

So unless local govts and people protest, it would be foolish for us to do the same.

chal_phek_mat

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Posted: 14 April 2008 at 7:26am | IP Logged
Originally posted by return_to_hades

Originally posted by chal_phek_mat

Originally posted by return_to_hades

Originally posted by raksha.l

Can anybody please take the pain of explaining to me as to why one should 'fight' with America in the first place???Ermm

The debate is over moral and political ideology. America considers itself the most powerful country in the world, so it isnt? and believes it can manipulate the world , it doesnt/cant?. In recent times the American government have taken some very questionable actions, that does not adhere to the principles of freedom, liberty and personal respect it stands for but if they stand for its own self interest, it is not questionable, everyone is supposed to do things for their benefits. Certain Americans visiting other countries have often been snotty, pompous or misbehaved. That is the attitude of arrogant people and arrogance is not a birthright of America, you should see tha arrogance of Indians/Brits/Chinese visiting other countries. The point is someone wants to show America their place and take delusions away. By killing innocent civilians by blowing planes into buildings?

The important question is not about how powerful or how manipulative it is but how it chooses to use its strengths. The interest of a country is the interest of its people. If America considered its own interest then it would have considered the welfare of its own people. However, the nation has forgotten interests of its own citizens and the world for the benefit of a few choice people. The biggest problem in America is its hypocritical stand on policies.

We are talking about America here. Every country has their own flaws. There are bad representatives for every nation. The problem is that it American behavior has slowly become a global concern.

Where did I ever condone terrorism or acts of violence. We are talking about ideological standpoint here and one can make a point without violence.

Is the word 'fight' or 'compete'???D'oh
I am not sure what the correct word is. However, I would say a more appropriate terms would be 'reality check'  'plant their feet back on the ground'  'unplug the power trip'
when someone is wealthy,powerful, they are supposed to use their power for the good or welfare of others, if that is power trip for some, then so be itWink

Umm what good and welfare of others are you talking about. If that good and welfare existed this debate would not be taking place.

 

I am not sure why every Indian grows up hating America ( even I did, until I saw the other side of the fence)...

Hate is a strong word, but they really really really really don't like us. Not just Indians, Europeans, South Americans, Canadians, Mexicans, Asians, Africans pretty much the rest of the world does not seem to think highly of us. It's the pricks that run the country that creates a bad name for everyone. It is wrong for people to make assumptions about Americans but they cannot be blamed as it is natural to be cautious. Once they get to know a more diverse cross section of Americans they will perhaps change their mind
.

What most of those Pricks do is they look after the interests of their countrymen the first and foremost, now if that is unfathomable to people, perhaps some fast learning classes can be conducted that teach the reality, your benefit comes before "freedom, equality etc", but other than that nothing can be done to remove the ignorance of those "not so enlightened". Sorry since we are down to the name calling, I think that should be acceptable, shouldnt itWink?

If America actually looked after its own people then it would not be so much of a concern. At least the nation looks well after its own people. However, the American government has done nothing to look after its own people. How many people cannot even afford basic healthcare? How many of our own veterans who lost limbs fighting for our country are now living on the streets? How many of our own citizens live in substandard housing, without basic amenities? How many infants are frozen to death each year because there is no heating facilities? How many teenagers drop out of school to work? How many children were left behind? How many youth live in neighborhoods so dangerous that some will not live to see seventeen?

There are hundreds of questions that can be asked to our American government. What have they done for us? How have we the people benefited from the choices our country made? If there was even a small percent of improvement for the citizens, I would not be upset so much.

Pardon me but it bothers me that I am giving the government interest free loans to blow people up each year than make a difference in the community I live it and it bothers me further when people justify these actions that result in a lose lose situation for American citizens and our governments victims.

Good and Welfare of the world, lets start with clearing some misconceptiosn(or perhaps made out assumptions based upon personal preferences).

People that hate/dislike America, Africa, Well in the past 8 years America under the "pricks of todayWink" has more than doubled its own efforts for the African continent in helping in Debt releif, AIDS prevention, hunger etc. That is double of what America was spending before, and 4 times what the rest of your "non-prick" leaders of the world are even thinking of spending. Yes America holds the leaders of the country accountable for the aid and effort that goes in

So after this you say Africa dislikes America, then perhaps the people are not into being accountable for their actions or perhaps you have no idea whether or not they dislike America

Coming to Asia(lets be specific India). The people on the other side  of terrorism that India faces are the same people that America is beating up in Afghanistan. So to the very least there are atleast 4-5 million Indian families(of soldiers positioned in the Northern borders) that should be thankful, b'cos there is someone backing their effort, someone with a governmental influence. Now if the Indian ministers cannot be thankful for the lives of their own soldiers then perhaps we should be questioning the "non-prick" Indian leadersWink, Now due to the disjointed efforts of the two countries, the people who plan these attacks have to go to Pakistan to conduct their works, but that is more b'cos that's the only place where they have found safe haven. Now you might dislike the "Pricks" in America if you dont appreciate someone trying to stop bombing the train you are in or the building that you are in. But if you are in one of those buildings and if you are not thankful, then perhaps it is a different storyLOL

About Afghanistan, I am sure you would have loved the life in Afghanistan before the Talban got flushed away. I am sure the Burkhas are very very comfy there and the pleasures of life were out of the world that would make you "dislike" the American effort, what SayWink

Now when America gets into those countries they put their own companies in charge of everything. And Lobbyism makes that possible. And if you think Lobbyism only started 8 years ago then you need to start reading "Washington Post" more often. And Yes the direct competitors are of the European countries. And now they lost out on a big time contracts and theu propents the European politicians lost out on a big payday. Sure they are going to hate/dislike the "Prick leaders of America". But that is just how the world worksWink

Lets talk local.

About healthcare and social welfare. Well the best chance for healthcare is when you are employed in America. Now if you are unemployed you get state benefits, but then you are suppsed to get a job, once you lose that job you are on your own, there is a line of people for that I am sure you know. And you choose not to make the effort to retain your job, that is too bad sorry after that you are responsible for your own self after that. And for this point everyone agreed including the Clintons and the Obama's.So if holding someone accountable is "being a Prick" well that it is thenWink

The way I was remember democracy was "For the people, By the People, To the People". There is no word called Government in it. The current "Pricks" in power have a simple say. We cant manage your money, we dont know what is important for you, we dont want to make assumptions for you. You have your money back in the taxes you paid and use it for whatever you feel is appropriate. Governements everywhere have a weak ability to utilize the moneies for the right reasons. After 150-160 years of American Government history you should have enough of a proof to show you that.So atleast the current "Pricks" are honest in understanding a governements limitation.

Now the responsiblty for spending the money wisely is upon the citizens. If the Citizens are so worried about social welfare, They should write a check to a welfare cause for that tax benefit every month. And certainly that $600-$2000 you get as tax rebate later in the year should be given to someone of your favourite charity, if you so mean what you feel badly about. Unfortunately most people want to "talk the talk" but not "walk the talk" so the social welfare has gone down

Now if you blame the "Pricks" for the sorry state of effort today then perhaps you just are using a personal grudge to blame someone for something general public isnt doingWink

Now to prove the point Lets take it global again, back to Africa. American govt sends the money to the African Govt for all the welfare causes and holds their govts accountable for them. Now if they(the govts) are not able to meet the standards on everything like eductation, hunger, poverty, debts, AIDS programs they are questioned. The hard numbers of how the money is supposed to be spent is the cost of education per child is about $500/month, food is another $500/year, yearly condoms for the parents about $100- so they dont spread around the AIDS anymore, cost is about $2000/family of one.

Contrast this with the program of the favourite cheerleader of your "non-prick leaders", spend $20 million for education of

Opens up a educational instituite for education 60 kids in those $20 million

Lets take a vote Whose program is more far rangingWink

About Heathcare in America, yes the cost of Healthcare is high, but there is the highest level of personal accountability for the healthcare proffesionals in the world. You make a mistake here, you will lose everything including your undergarments. The lawyers ensure that and guess who keeps those personal liability laws aroundWink Who are the Lawyers bidders in this whole thing?.

There have been efforts to provide "Cheap healthcare to poor". But everytime has failed b'cos the patients want a big payday and sue the doctor. The cost of medication is high in this country b'cos most of the research work is done here and now if someone wants all of that to be made free, then perhaps they reached the wrong land. This is a the "land of the free", not the land of the "freeloaders". Here you work hard, make money you get things, when someone sits on their lazy bums, and wants services provided they get pushed to the curbside

I am not sure if the defination of the word "Prick" changed in the recent timesLOL



Edited by chal_phek_mat - 14 April 2008 at 7:43am

Aanandaa

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Posted: 14 April 2008 at 11:19pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by nitasuni

@ raksha.1 This is the veiw of most of the youngsters who are still living in India and dreaming a green card and high salaried job. Sorry to say these youngsters not bothered about the stand India taking in international issues, they want their well being only.

 


Forgive me if I sound too rude Nitasuni- but atleast I apologized even before I said it unlike you going ahead and insulting the whole generation of youth...India came to whatever it was because of a whole generation of laid back, lackluster kind of people, who FAILED to carry forward the great ideals that our ancestors have set, our freedom fighters would've cringed in their  graves, looking at the way  people scrambled for day to day bread and living, forgetting the very reason for their being...Today's youth has to be praised for the way we are bringing back the lost values, lost pride and lost prosperity...

@Deepak: Thanks for putting it accross in such a succinct manner...

@Chal-Phek-math: woohoo, only one word :you are tremendousClapClapClap..


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