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The greatest king in Indian history? (Page 3)

lashy IF-Stunnerz
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Posted: 19 January 2008 at 3:13am | IP Logged

the debate is progressing well.. but lets not get swayed by too much emotins gals... Embarrassed



Edited by lashy - 19 January 2008 at 3:59am
mermaid_QT IF-Sizzlerz
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Posted: 19 January 2008 at 8:24am | IP Logged
LASHU... kahaan kho jaatee ho!! Cry Cry Cry
Hug

greatest king? Shri Krishna
Anuradha IF-Veteran Member
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Posted: 19 January 2008 at 9:42am | IP Logged
Huh what a debate... But all went over my head.. History has never been for me.. Bahut mushkil se ratta marti thi.. I really cant get those dates and names Confused Confused Confused

QTdi, how about Sri Ram Tongue He even sacrificed his married life for the praja.. Ouch
souro Moderator
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Posted: 19 January 2008 at 9:59am | IP Logged

Originally posted by mermaid_QT


greatest king? Shri Krishna

I so agree with you on this. Only thing is there is no definite proof that he was a historical character.ClapClapClap

If I have to choose from the historically documented emperors of India, then I'll choose Samudragupta, because he was a good general, a good administrator and statesman, encouraged arts and also had a powerful army & navy to command the respect of the neighbouring countries. To have a strong navy was not that common among ancient Indian kings and they rarely dared to cross the natural boundaries (the Himalayas or the oceans). Samudragupta was at least successful to some extent in doing that.

Though the very same things can be said about Vikramaditya and Ashoka but because of a few reasons I consider Samudragupta just a li'l above them.

Firsty, Samudragupta expanded the Gupta empire to a vast one which Vikramaditya inherited. It was Samudragupta who was a proponent of art and education which was again emulated by Vikramaditya.

Secondly, the Gupta empire continued to flourish even after the death of Samudragupta, because he was successful in building a strong base. The same can't be said about Ashoka who infact weakened the base a bit by adopting a non-violent policy, and his successors couldn't maintain the influence of the Mauryan empire and it came crashing down.

Another, emperor who can be regarded in the same league is Akbar. Though it was about 1200 yrs later and I think more could have been achieved by him considering the advancement in technologies that must have been made in that time.

And, some of the kings included in that list like, Shivaji and Prithviraj Chauhan, I don't think they were major kings. Maybe, kings with some adventurous stories attached to them but certainly not great.



Edited by souro - 19 January 2008 at 9:33pm
souro Moderator
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Posted: 19 January 2008 at 10:07am | IP Logged

Originally posted by Anu.Rad


QTdi, how about Sri Ram Tongue He even sacrificed his married life for the praja.. Ouch

I'm not QTdi but still couldn't help but reply...Tongue

Ram was no way near as a statesman or diplomat in comparison to Shri Krishna. Secondly, I don't think it's a great idea to ask someone to give proof of her purity by jumping in the fire just because your subjects asked for it.Shocked And that too after she was kidnapped and kept in confinement for so many days.Dead He could have handled it better, IMO.

Anuradha IF-Veteran Member
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Posted: 19 January 2008 at 10:22am | IP Logged
Originally posted by souro

Originally posted by Anu.Rad


QTdi, how about Sri Ram Tongue He even sacrificed his married life for the praja.. Ouch

I'm not QTdi but still couldn't help but reply...Tongue

Ram was no way near as a statesman or diplomat in comparison to Shri Krishna. Secondly, I don't think it's a great idea to ask someone to give proof of her purity by jumping in the fire just because your subjects asked for it.Shocked And that too after she was kidnapped and kept in confinement for so many days.Dead He could have handled it better, IMO.



Yes, but he earned the title of "Mahapurush".. He might not be a diplomat, but he was truth speaker something for which he was known and he controlled the people really well who where under him...

But I wonder if he would hv taken a similar step if it was someone from the commons... Was it that only Sita had to give the agnipariksha or was it a rule applicable to every woman Confused
nitasuni Senior Member
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Posted: 19 January 2008 at 10:26am | IP Logged
Originally posted by souro

Originally posted by mermaid_QT


greatest king? Shri Krishna

I so agree with you on this. Only thing is there is no definite proof that he was a historical character.ClapClapClap

If I have to choose from the historically documented emperors of India, then I'll choose Samudragupta, because he was a good general, a good administrator and statesman, encouraged arts and also had a powerful army & navy to command the respect of the neighbouring countries. To have a strong navy was not that common among ancient Indian kings and they rarely dared to cross the natural boundaries (the Himalayas or the oceans). Samudragupta was at least successful to some extent in doing that.

Though the very same things can be said about Vikramaditya and Ashoka but because of a few reasons I consider Samudragupta just a li'l above them.

Firsty, Samudragupta expanded the Gupta empire to a vast one which Samudragupta inherited. It was Samudragupta who was a proponent of art and education which was again emulated by Vikramaditya.

Secondly, the Gupta empire continued to flourish even after the death of Samudragupta, because he was successful in building a strong base. The same can't be said about Ashoka who infact weakened the base a bit by adopting a non-violent policy, and his successors couldn't maintain the influence of the Mauryan empire and it came crashing down.

Another, emperor who can be regarded in the same league is Akbar. Though it was about 1200 yrs later and I think more could have been achieved by him considering the advancement in technologies that must have been made in that time.

And, some of the kings included in that list like, Shivaji and Prithviraj Chauhan, I don't think they were major kings. Maybe, kings with some adventurous stories attached to them but certainly not great.

Souro I agree with almost all points by you except one or two.

Firstly,  Krishna was not a king at any time.  Madura was ruled by Ugrasena after the death of Kamsa and Dwaraka was ruled by Balaram. Since Sriram was almost idle campared to Laxman in Ramavatar, it is said that in Krishnavatar they reverse the roles(heard/read in a story related to Bhagavad).

Akbar may be great, but I respect Sivaji and Prithvi Raj Chauhan more because I respect bravory more than so called political soaping such as marrying a neighbours  young daughter at the  mid-age etc.I disagree with the methodes used by the great Indian King to became great.(Do you heard about the famous "Meena Bazaar" during the time of Akbar)

Raja raja Chola of Chola dynasty also have a similar navy and expand his ruling up to overseas(Eastwards).  He  was also called as "Gangaikonda cholan" because he expand his country upto River Ganga.

nitasuni Senior Member
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Posted: 19 January 2008 at 10:36am | IP Logged
Originally posted by minnie2308

Originally posted by ketaki_ry

Originally posted by minnie2308

Unlike many others who preferred to keep PRC out of this league, I still keep him here for various reasons like the following:

1.     None of the mentioned warriors apart from PRC won battles at the age of 13-14. Infact his career was actually over at the age most of the others were starting it. So I'd give him a benefit of doubt that had he lived longer, he would have expanded his kingdom just as much as others if not more.


2.     As mentioned by some that he was lucky to have someone like Chander Bardai to write about his feats, I'd mention the chinese scholars who visited during Asoka's and Gupta periods to write about their accomplishments. So even those emperors received their fair share of limelights and advertisements.

Yes he lost, the last battle of his life. But remember that was the only battle he lost!!
Unlike others I wouldn't blame his love-life being the cause of his downfall.
The reason for his downfall could have been his over-emotional nature. That's why I don't place him as high as the politically smart Shivaji or Asoka. But he is definitely in the league……. And not far behind.Clap

On a more personal front, I feel comparing PRC to Asoka or Shivaji or Akbar would be like comparing 20-20 cricket with a test match 

hmm... I will have to disagree with you here minnie, I really don't think prc was as great as the other able kings you have mentioned above. why? here go my reasons..

1. So prc won the battles when he was 13-14 u say? acording to what source? - pr raso - which is highly exaggerated and almost poetic than telling facts.. or sagars version? I m sure u r not following sagars version... coz we all know where that comes from. Smile ..  and about Raso, if u look at the other things mentioned in raso, u will probably get the idea of its acuracy.. try doing that.. I know i did..Smile and it sorta changed my beleives abt prc.. (and i m not sure abt this - but i think raso only mentions how he killed a lion when he was 14 or something.. )

And mind you there are other brave kings who started their journey at very young age too. Shivaji for example, started ruling when he was very young.. and started aquiring forts when he was abt 14 or 16 not 20... (i can provide u dates if u want.) ( Well I read in histry text book that he captured Torna fort of Bijapur at 20 however a historian friend of mine tells me he started planning the attack as early as 14 and finally attacked at 17 and won...... so could be between 17 and 20.....Confused. however no offense here.... u could be right ) 

Now Chandragupt Maurya,  this guy was crowned emperor of India when he was only 20. and he was fighting way earlier than that.. so u can imagine.. (cudn't agree more with u..... however with due respect I'd point out that Chandragupta who was not born with a silver spoon did reach his destiny with guidance of Kautilya aka Chanakya....... And yes you need to start early if you have to cover a long journey.Clap..... Minnie agrees with u here Neha Smile)

These are the kings who had started planning their 'empires' when they were very very young and executed it properly... bunch of battles hardly help.. (ermm..... don't agree entirely... executing kingdom well is a part of the duty...... but fighting battles and winning them to establish supremacy and intimidate enemies to stop them from further troubling you is the call of the day)

Other great kings like Samudragupta, who decended to the throne were concentraiting on learning how to handle a kingdom successfully at that age.

2. You say prc didn't live long so its unfair to compare them with these great rulers who did..

emm.. sorry to be harsh, but who's fault is this? - When you are a king, your First priority is to keep yourself alive - for the kingdom's sake. Its not like todays wars.. King's murder destroys the whole kingdom, people can suffer like anything! (which they did..after prc.. )  ( yeah Agree (with a pinch of salt Wink) Pri didn't develop a good spy network...... I'd also blame him for not trying to find himself a proper mentorConfused)

Hence, for a king to be, this was the 1st thing to learn - how to keep yourself alive, from enemies and traitors inside as well.. Chandragupta, shivaji are great examples of this! They started the kindom. They had live. Beleive me, this was their 1st priority(yeah I believe uLOL.) Other decended kings like Guptas, Ashok etc were doing serious studies on how to mentain a kindom while prc was probably on his fighting sprees at age of 14-15.. (kahajane ki khoj and whats not...if u beleive it , that is..!(Well I dont go by the Khajaney ki khoj adventure which happened when his dad was alive...... so its ok even if it did happen.. and that happened even earlier than 14-15 if it actually happenedOuch))

Anyways, prc was killed in a battle when he was 26, i guess.... I do feel sorry but this is the main reason I do not consider him that great.  Yes, mistakes happen, but when you look at amount of painstaking efforts kings like chandragupta, shivaji, All Guptas took on their own and the kingdoms/empire's security, prc's effort seem to be amazingly feeble .. actually careless..  acording to the same raso and accounts. (agreed here that is why i rate him highly on bravery front and not smartness front.Ouch

I am saying this b'coz there are proofs of these - just to give you examples:  

- At time when Shivaji started his career, the whole india was under 2 mejor muslim rulers and he had nothing.. He knew very well that he and his fighters had to survive at any cost to create and secure the kingdom. hence he invented the tactics  which invoved playing politics or doing max damage and running away.. fighting like a fairytale prince till dying was just not practical. LOL (i do agree about Shivaji starting a career with a bang and also reached a good plateau point and even maintained it well...... however his death is still a kind of unresolved mystery

- A whole big book was written on Raajniti by Chanakya about how a king should take protect himself and the kingdom from inside and outside enemies.. and the details still make me go - Shocked. This techniques are still used by indian gov today...  and The guy who wrote this was Chandragupta's mentor! ( yup.. the guy was pure brains..... infact defence Institutes are researching over a wonder herb that he used to prescribe to soldiers......something that used to kill hunger pangs for days together.... if the experiment is successful the defence forces will be greatly beneifitted0 

- The Guptas - All Gupta potitics was based on a book written by chanakya's student (kamandakiya) and was mostly based on chanakya neeti. and they applied it very well! Smile( good for them Clap)

3. About the advertisements  - The greek ppl were not hired by the Mauryas and Guptas to write about them. They were tourists, chinese monks who just wrote what they saw. hence its well documented. but this can hardly be compared with a court poet writing a poetry on a friend and a king who he works for!  ... try reading pr raso and you yourself will realise how accurate are chaand's facts...LOL (I have replied to this below)

Sory if I m came out harsh .. I do not think prc was a bad king. But he definitly wasnt responsible one(.Agree againCry with a pinch of salt). and I cant even think abt placing him in a league with other ones mentioned earlier .. ( As a youngster who started well...by winning battles bravely, I place him high on bravery front..... but he was like a successful youngster whose success got to his head.....sadly.. and yes unlike other great kings he became complacent even before his career graph could reach the plateau point)

coz I think looking at prc and other kings' acheivements with proportional to how much they lived would be like comparing scores of 30 runs in 17 balls out and 100 runs in 115 balls not out!

Its just that, I cannot symphatise his death/defeat, ignore his lack of care and put him in league with kings who took great deal of care just to survive..there was a reason why they did it!! they werent idiots afterall..

just my opinions .. didn't mean to offend anyone...Smile

 

No Neha .you have definitely not offended me.

However, I did feel some emotional outburst there Confused

But I was truly shocked when you said "Asoka, Chandragupta, Sivaji…..etc. weren't idiots" Did you really believe that I considered them idiots?  In that case I'd really like to know where? I am actually awed by them………. And feel they were superheroes who walked the earth.

When  I talked about putting PRC in league…. I definitely meant on the bravery part…… someone who faces his enemies and also intimidates them deserves a pride of place amongst the brave rulers……….the very first statement in my post which u deleted while quoting. You said you disagree with me……but I realized you have almost at all points agreed with meLOL all except FEWOuch

 

And about cricket analogy..... I actually meant the no of overs decided by the almighty for PRC and for the others.

And yes I firmly believe that he killed Ghori before killing himself.

 

@bhuvana ... Yeah i have also heard about the confusing mystery around Shivaji's death...... personally I would prefer a warriors death.

 

neha, You also did not mention Asoka....... my personal favourite. who's entry into the hall of fame stems not from fighting and winning wars, which his ancestors aslo did pretty well, but from establishing Asoka dhamma....... the intricate details of which are beyond the scope of current debate

@ bold      And to the end of a powerful Kingdom and mishaps among its people..



Edited by nitasuni - 19 January 2008 at 10:37am

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