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ketaki_ry

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ketaki_ry

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Posted: 18 January 2008 at 10:18am | IP Logged
wow laks, thanks for those chanakya's experts ..

wow!.. no wonder he was called Kautilya!

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bhuvana3

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Posted: 18 January 2008 at 10:23am | IP Logged
Originally posted by munyr123

Originally posted by ketaki_ry

Originally posted by minnie2308

Unlike many others who preferred to keep PRC out of this league, I still keep him here for various reasons like the following:

1.     None of the mentioned warriors apart from PRC won battles at the age of 13-14. Infact his career was actually over at the age most of the others were starting it. So I'd give him a benefit of doubt that had he lived longer, he would have expanded his kingdom just as much as others if not more.


2.     As mentioned by some that he was lucky to have someone like Chander Bardai to write about his feats, I'd mention the chinese scholars who visited during Asoka's and Gupta periods to write about their accomplishments. So even those emperors received their fair share of limelights and advertisements.

Yes he lost, the last battle of his life. But remember that was the only battle he lost!!
Unlike others I wouldn't blame his love-life being the cause of his downfall.
The reason for his downfall could have been his over-emotional nature. That's why I don't place him as high as the politically smart Shivaji or Asoka. But he is definitely in the league……. And not far behind.Clap

On a more personal front, I feel comparing PRC to Asoka or Shivaji or Akbar would be like comparing 20-20 cricket with a test match 

hmm... I will have to disagree with you here minnie, I really don't think prc was as great as the other able kings you have mentioned above. why? here go my reasons..

1. So prc won the battles when he was 13-14 u say? acording to what source? - pr raso - which is highly exaggerated and almost poetic than telling facts.. or sagars version? I m sure u r not following sagars version... coz we all know where that comes from. Smile ..  and about Raso, if u look at the other things mentioned in raso, u will probably get the idea of its acuracy.. try doing that.. I know i did..Smile and it sorta changed my beleives abt prc.. (and i m not sure abt this - but i think raso only mentions how he killed a lion when he was 14 or something.. )

And mind you there are other brave kings who started their journey at very young age too. Shivaji for example, started ruling when he was very young.. and started aquiring forts when he was abt 14 or 16 not 20... (i can provide u dates if u want.)

Now Chandragupt Maurya,  this guy was crowned emperor of India when he was only 20. and he was fighting way earlier than that.. so u can imagine..

These are the kings who had started planning their 'empires' when they were very very young and executed it properly... bunch of battles hardly help..

Other great kings like Samudragupta, who decended to the throne were concentraiting on learning how to handle a kingdom successfully at that age.

2. You say prc didn't live long so its unfair to compare them with these great rulers who did..

emm.. sorry to be harsh, but who's fault is this? - When you are a king, your First priority is to keep yourself alive - for the kingdom's sake. Its not like todays wars.. King's murder destroys the whole kingdom, people can suffer like anything! (which they did..after prc.. ) 

Hence, for a king to be, this was the 1st thing to learn - how to keep yourself alive, from enemies and traitors inside as well.. Chandragupta, shivaji are great examples of this! They started the kindom. They had live. Beleive me, this was their 1st priority. Other decended kings like Guptas, Ashok etc were doing serious studies on how to mentain a kindom while prc was probably on his fighting sprees at age of 14-15.. (kahajane ki khoj and whats not...if u beleive it , that is..! )

Anyways, prc was killed in a battle when he was 26, i guess.... I do feel sorry but this is the main reason I do not consider him that great.  Yes, mistakes happen, but when you look at amount of painstaking efforts kings like chandragupta, shivaji, All Guptas took on their own and the kingdoms/empire's security, prc's effort seem to be amazingly feeble .. actually careless..  acording to the same raso and accounts.

I am saying this b'coz there are proofs of these - just to give you examples:  

- At time when Shivaji started his career, the whole india was under 2 mejor muslim rulers and he had nothing.. He knew very well that he and his fighters had to survive at any cost to create and secure the kingdom. hence he invented the tactics  which invoved playing politics or doing max damage and running away.. fighting like a fairytale prince till dying was just not practical. LOL  You are talking abt Shvaji at the prime of his career. He died in Andhra Pradesh, a drunkard. He had fallen to vice and woman n believe me it is not a heros death he diedDead. Atleast PRC died in the battlefield. That is if u choose not to believe the 'hired friends' Prithviraj Raso.Ouch 

- A whole big book was written on Raajniti by Chanakya about how a king should take protect himself and the kingdom from inside and outside enemies.. and the details still make me go - Shocked. This techniques are still used by indian gov today...  and The guy who wrote this was Chandragupta's mentor!

- The Guptas - All Gupta potitics was based on a book written by chanakya's student (kamandakiya) and was mostly based on chanakya neeti. and they applied it very well! Smile

3. About the advertisements  - The greek ppl were not hired by the Mauryas and Guptas to write about them. They were tourists, chinese monks who just wrote what they saw. hence its well documented. but this can hardly be compared with a court poet writing a poetry on a friend and a king who he works for!  ... try reading pr raso and you yourself will realise how accurate are chaand's facts...LOL

Sory if I m came out harsh .. I do not think prc was a bad king. But he definitly wasnt responsible one.. and I cant even think abt placing him in a league with other ones mentioned earlier ..

coz I think looking at prc and other kings' acheivements with proportional to how much they lived would be like comparing scores of 30 runs in 17 balls out and 100 runs in 115 balls not out!

Its just that, I cannot symphatise his death/defeat, ignore his lack of care and put him in league with kings who took great deal of care just to survive..there was a reason why they did it!! they werent idiots afterall..

just my opinions .. didn't mean to offend anyone...Smile

 



Its not offending to me but I dont agree with you. At the young age he killed the powerful emperor Bhimdev.Besides this, he had won many battles. Being a king he had always shown care to his people and not only people but forgiven his enemies too. The mistake which someshwar chouhan made, same Prithvi repeated by trusting Ghori...

Shivaji he was a great ruler for only a part of his career

minnie2308

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minnie2308

Joined: 03 October 2007

Posts: 1919

Posted: 18 January 2008 at 10:34am | IP Logged
Originally posted by ketaki_ry

Originally posted by minnie2308

Unlike many others who preferred to keep PRC out of this league, I still keep him here for various reasons like the following:

1.     None of the mentioned warriors apart from PRC won battles at the age of 13-14. Infact his career was actually over at the age most of the others were starting it. So I'd give him a benefit of doubt that had he lived longer, he would have expanded his kingdom just as much as others if not more.


2.     As mentioned by some that he was lucky to have someone like Chander Bardai to write about his feats, I'd mention the chinese scholars who visited during Asoka's and Gupta periods to write about their accomplishments. So even those emperors received their fair share of limelights and advertisements.

Yes he lost, the last battle of his life. But remember that was the only battle he lost!!
Unlike others I wouldn't blame his love-life being the cause of his downfall.
The reason for his downfall could have been his over-emotional nature. That's why I don't place him as high as the politically smart Shivaji or Asoka. But he is definitely in the league……. And not far behind.Clap

On a more personal front, I feel comparing PRC to Asoka or Shivaji or Akbar would be like comparing 20-20 cricket with a test match 

hmm... I will have to disagree with you here minnie, I really don't think prc was as great as the other able kings you have mentioned above. why? here go my reasons..

1. So prc won the battles when he was 13-14 u say? acording to what source? - pr raso - which is highly exaggerated and almost poetic than telling facts.. or sagars version? I m sure u r not following sagars version... coz we all know where that comes from. Smile ..  and about Raso, if u look at the other things mentioned in raso, u will probably get the idea of its acuracy.. try doing that.. I know i did..Smile and it sorta changed my beleives abt prc.. (and i m not sure abt this - but i think raso only mentions how he killed a lion when he was 14 or something.. )

And mind you there are other brave kings who started their journey at very young age too. Shivaji for example, started ruling when he was very young.. and started aquiring forts when he was abt 14 or 16 not 20... (i can provide u dates if u want.) ( Well I read in histry text book that he captured Torna fort of Bijapur at 20 however a historian friend of mine tells me he started planning the attack as early as 14 and finally attacked at 17 and won...... so could be between 17 and 20.....Confused. however no offense here.... u could be right ) 

Now Chandragupt Maurya,  this guy was crowned emperor of India when he was only 20. and he was fighting way earlier than that.. so u can imagine.. (cudn't agree more with u..... however with due respect I'd point out that Chandragupta who was not born with a silver spoon did reach his destiny with guidance of Kautilya aka Chanakya....... And yes you need to start early if you have to cover a long journey.Clap..... Minnie agrees with u here Neha Smile)

These are the kings who had started planning their 'empires' when they were very very young and executed it properly... bunch of battles hardly help.. (ermm..... don't agree entirely... executing kingdom well is a part of the duty...... but fighting battles and winning them to establish supremacy and intimidate enemies to stop them from further troubling you is the call of the day)

Other great kings like Samudragupta, who decended to the throne were concentraiting on learning how to handle a kingdom successfully at that age.

2. You say prc didn't live long so its unfair to compare them with these great rulers who did..

emm.. sorry to be harsh, but who's fault is this? - When you are a king, your First priority is to keep yourself alive - for the kingdom's sake. Its not like todays wars.. King's murder destroys the whole kingdom, people can suffer like anything! (which they did..after prc.. )  ( yeah Agree (with a pinch of salt Wink) Pri didn't develop a good spy network...... I'd also blame him for not trying to find himself a proper mentorConfused)

Hence, for a king to be, this was the 1st thing to learn - how to keep yourself alive, from enemies and traitors inside as well.. Chandragupta, shivaji are great examples of this! They started the kindom. They had live. Beleive me, this was their 1st priority(yeah I believe uLOL.) Other decended kings like Guptas, Ashok etc were doing serious studies on how to mentain a kindom while prc was probably on his fighting sprees at age of 14-15.. (kahajane ki khoj and whats not...if u beleive it , that is..!(Well I dont go by the Khajaney ki khoj adventure which happened when his dad was alive...... so its ok even if it did happen.. and that happened even earlier than 14-15 if it actually happenedOuch))

Anyways, prc was killed in a battle when he was 26, i guess.... I do feel sorry but this is the main reason I do not consider him that great.  Yes, mistakes happen, but when you look at amount of painstaking efforts kings like chandragupta, shivaji, All Guptas took on their own and the kingdoms/empire's security, prc's effort seem to be amazingly feeble .. actually careless..  acording to the same raso and accounts. (agreed here that is why i rate him highly on bravery front and not smartness front.Ouch

I am saying this b'coz there are proofs of these - just to give you examples:  

- At time when Shivaji started his career, the whole india was under 2 mejor muslim rulers and he had nothing.. He knew very well that he and his fighters had to survive at any cost to create and secure the kingdom. hence he invented the tactics  which invoved playing politics or doing max damage and running away.. fighting like a fairytale prince till dying was just not practical. LOL (i do agree about Shivaji starting a career with a bang and also reached a good plateau point and even maintained it well...... however his death is still a kind of unresolved mystery

- A whole big book was written on Raajniti by Chanakya about how a king should take protect himself and the kingdom from inside and outside enemies.. and the details still make me go - Shocked. This techniques are still used by indian gov today...  and The guy who wrote this was Chandragupta's mentor! ( yup.. the guy was pure brains..... infact defence Institutes are researching over a wonder herb that he used to prescribe to soldiers......something that used to kill hunger pangs for days together.... if the experiment is successful the defence forces will be greatly beneifitted0 

- The Guptas - All Gupta potitics was based on a book written by chanakya's student (kamandakiya) and was mostly based on chanakya neeti. and they applied it very well! Smile( good for them Clap)

3. About the advertisements  - The greek ppl were not hired by the Mauryas and Guptas to write about them. They were tourists, chinese monks who just wrote what they saw. hence its well documented. but this can hardly be compared with a court poet writing a poetry on a friend and a king who he works for!  ... try reading pr raso and you yourself will realise how accurate are chaand's facts...LOL (I have replied to this below)

Sory if I m came out harsh .. I do not think prc was a bad king. But he definitly wasnt responsible one(.Agree againCry with a pinch of salt). and I cant even think abt placing him in a league with other ones mentioned earlier .. ( As a youngster who started well...by winning battles bravely, I place him high on bravery front..... but he was like a successful youngster whose success got to his head.....sadly.. and yes unlike other great kings he became complacent even before his career graph could reach the plateau point)

coz I think looking at prc and other kings' acheivements with proportional to how much they lived would be like comparing scores of 30 runs in 17 balls out and 100 runs in 115 balls not out!

Its just that, I cannot symphatise his death/defeat, ignore his lack of care and put him in league with kings who took great deal of care just to survive..there was a reason why they did it!! they werent idiots afterall..

just my opinions .. didn't mean to offend anyone...Smile

 

No Neha .you have definitely not offended me.

However, I did feel some emotional outburst there Confused

But I was truly shocked when you said "Asoka, Chandragupta, Sivaji…..etc. weren't idiots" Did you really believe that I considered them idiots?  In that case I'd really like to know where? I am actually awed by them………. And feel they were superheroes who walked the earth.

When  I talked about putting PRC in league…. I definitely meant on the bravery part…… someone who faces his enemies and also intimidates them deserves a pride of place amongst the brave rulers……….the very first statement in my post which u deleted while quoting. You said you disagree with me……but I realized you have almost at all points agreed with meLOL all except FEWOuch

 

And about cricket analogy..... I actually meant the no of overs decided by the almighty for PRC and for the others.

And yes I firmly believe that he killed Ghori before killing himself.

 

@bhuvana ... Yeah i have also heard about the confusing mystery around Shivaji's death...... personally I would prefer a warriors death.

 

neha, You also did not mention Asoka....... my personal favourite. who's entry into the hall of fame stems not from fighting and winning wars, which his ancestors aslo did pretty well, but from establishing Asoka dhamma....... the intricate details of which are beyond the scope of current debate



Edited by minnie2308 - 18 January 2008 at 10:50am

ketaki_ry

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ketaki_ry

Joined: 04 June 2005

Posts: 6509

Posted: 18 January 2008 at 12:55pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by bhuvana3

 You are talking abt Shvaji at the prime of his career. He died in Andhra Pradesh, a drunkard. He had fallen to vice and woman n believe me it is not a heros death he diedDead. Atleast PRC died in the battlefield. That is if u choose not to believe the 'hired friends' Prithviraj Raso.Ouch 

Shivaji he was a great ruler for only a part of his career

errmm.... Confused ... I m lost for words actually..ConfusedConfused

so.. umm ..just out of curiousity,  who is this great historian who gave you such fantastic details on ermm.. shivaji? LOL 

 

whatever..  it is, just to inform ppl who didnt know much abt shivaji, According to many many many certified sources,  including Indian government etc..

- Shivaji died on Raaigadh (a fort built by him near pune). (which is, voila! Shocked no where near andhra pradesh..Confused)

- He died of fever for 3 weeks... (that had nothing to do with alcohol.)

- There was no lovestory or vice women or whatever that is in his life..

- He was a great ruler from start (abt 16yr ish) to the very end of his life.

maybe .. you are mistaking him for Devdas.. Ermm 

Dead



Edited by ketaki_ry - 18 January 2008 at 1:29pm

bhuvana3

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bhuvana3

Joined: 27 August 2007

Posts: 5704

Posted: 18 January 2008 at 1:38pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by ketaki_ry

Originally posted by bhuvana3

 You are talking abt Shvaji at the prime of his career. He died in Andhra Pradesh, a drunkard. He had fallen to vice and woman n believe me it is not a heros death he diedDead. Atleast PRC died in the battlefield. That is if u choose not to believe the 'hired friends' Prithviraj Raso.Ouch 

Shivaji he was a great ruler for only a part of his career

errmm.... Confused ... I m lost for words actually..ConfusedConfused

so.. umm ..just out of curiousity,  who is this great historian who gave you such fantastic details on ermm.. shivaji? LOL 

 

whatever..  it is, just to inform ppl who didnt know much abt shivaji, According to many many many certified sources,  including Indian government etc..

- Shivaji died on Raaigadh (a fort built by him near pune). (which is, voila! Shocked no where near andhra pradesh..Confused)

- He died of fever for 3 weeks... (that had nothing to do with alcohol.)

- There was no lovestory or vice women or whatever that is in his life..

- He was a great ruler from start (abt 16yr ish) to the very end of his life.

maybe .. you are mistaking him for Devdas.. Ermm 

Expected your reaction to be thisBig smile

Just to reassure you its no figment of my imagination and I definitely have better uses of my time than to spin melodramatic tales about rulers .

Nope I am not confused between Devdas and Shivaji.. I have more respect for the fictional devdas EmbarrassedHope you are not confused between  Shivaji and the Rajinikanth starrer movie Shivaji or the tamilian actor Shivaji.. Sure you are not ? Wink

I could post a list of authorities to support my stand here but then dear friend this is serious deviation from the debate topic.. Dont u think so ?? we were supposed to be talking about PRC n Sanyo , remember?

Hope Sagars make a serial on Shivaji too.. I know of a certain somebody who will be watching that for sure Tongue



Edited by bhuvana3 - 18 January 2008 at 1:48pm

ketaki_ry

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ketaki_ry

Joined: 04 June 2005

Posts: 6509

Posted: 18 January 2008 at 1:41pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by minnie2308

[QUOTE=ketaki_ry]

No Neha .you have definitely not offended me.

However, I did feel some emotional outburst there Confused

But I was truly shocked when you said "Asoka, Chandragupta, Sivaji…..etc. weren't idiots" Did you really believe that I considered them idiots?  In that case I'd really like to know where? I am actually awed by them………. And feel they were superheroes who walked the earth.

When  I talked about putting PRC in league…. I definitely meant on the bravery part…… someone who faces his enemies and also intimidates them deserves a pride of place amongst the brave rulers……….the very first statement in my post which u deleted while quoting. You said you disagree with me……but I realized you have almost at all points agreed with meLOL all except FEWOuch

 

And about cricket analogy..... I actually meant the no of overs decided by the almighty for PRC and for the others.

And yes I firmly believe that he killed Ghori before killing himself.

 

@bhuvana ... Yeah i have also heard about the confusing mystery around Shivaji's death...... personally I would prefer a warriors death.

 

neha, You also did not mention Asoka....... my personal favourite. who's entry into the hall of fame stems not from fighting and winning wars, which his ancestors aslo did pretty well, but from establishing Asoka dhamma....... the intricate details of which are beyond the scope of current debate

oh dear... minnie, I didnt say u think they are idiots yaar.. and yes we do agree in most of the points.

I was just saying - yes prc was brave, me thinks only bravery is not enough to make one a great king. Politics and othe skills are needed too. which prc lacked. so, I kinda think he was upto certain extent responsible for his own death... Hence I call him brave warrior, no doubt. but not one of the great kings.. thats the only place i think i disagree with you.

ant abt Shivaji - No. he did not die a worriors death. He died due to fever he was suffering for 3 weeks in raigadh in presence of his wife and son. I dont think anyone even bothers arguing he died in war..

 

munyr123

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munyr123

Joined: 28 December 2007

Posts: 2643

Posted: 18 January 2008 at 6:28pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by bhuvana3

Originally posted by ketaki_ry

Originally posted by bhuvana3

 You are talking abt Shvaji at the prime of his career. He died in Andhra Pradesh, a drunkard. He had fallen to vice and woman n believe me it is not a heros death he diedDead. Atleast PRC died in the battlefield. That is if u choose not to believe the 'hired friends' Prithviraj Raso.Ouch 

Shivaji he was a great ruler for only a part of his career

errmm.... Confused ... I m lost for words actually..ConfusedConfused

so.. umm ..just out of curiousity,  who is this great historian who gave you such fantastic details on ermm.. shivaji? LOL 

 

whatever..  it is, just to inform ppl who didnt know much abt shivaji, According to many many many certified sources,  including Indian government etc..

- Shivaji died on Raaigadh (a fort built by him near pune). (which is, voila! Shocked no where near andhra pradesh..Confused)

- He died of fever for 3 weeks... (that had nothing to do with alcohol.)

- There was no lovestory or vice women or whatever that is in his life..

- He was a great ruler from start (abt 16yr ish) to the very end of his life.

maybe .. you are mistaking him for Devdas.. Ermm 

Expected your reaction to be thisBig smile

Just to reassure you its no figment of my imagination and I definitely have better uses of my time than to spin melodramatic tales about rulers .

Nope I am not confused between Devdas and Shivaji.. I have more respect for the fictional devdas EmbarrassedHope you are not confused between  Shivaji and the Rajinikanth starrer movie Shivaji or the tamilian actor Shivaji.. Sure you are not ? Wink

I could post a list of authorities to support my stand here but then dear friend this is serious deviation from the debate topic.. Dont u think so ?? we were supposed to be talking about PRC n Sanyo , remember?

Hope Sagars make a serial on Shivaji too.. I know of a certain somebody who will be watching that for sure Tongue


Hi Bhuvi and Ketaki, I am surprised to hear that ! anyways if you have references, then can you send me it in pm..I would like to see references of both of you


Edited by munyr123 - 18 January 2008 at 6:52pm

prc_the_Gr8

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prc_the_Gr8

Joined: 28 June 2007

Posts: 28

Posted: 18 January 2008 at 11:34pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by bhuvana3

Originally posted by ketaki_ry

Originally posted by bhuvana3

 You are talking abt Shvaji at the prime of his career. He died in Andhra Pradesh, a drunkard. He had fallen to vice and woman n believe me it is not a heros death he diedDead. Atleast PRC died in the battlefield. That is if u choose not to believe the 'hired friends' Prithviraj Raso.Ouch 

Shivaji he was a great ruler for only a part of his career

errmm.... Confused ... I m lost for words actually..ConfusedConfused

so.. umm ..just out of curiousity,  who is this great historian who gave you such fantastic details on ermm.. shivaji? LOL 

whatever..  it is, just to inform ppl who didnt know much abt shivaji, According to many many many certified sources,  including Indian government etc..

- Shivaji died on Raaigadh (a fort built by him near pune). (which is, voila! Shocked no where near andhra pradesh..Confused)

- He died of fever for 3 weeks... (that had nothing to do with alcohol.)

- There was no lovestory or vice women or whatever that is in his life..

- He was a great ruler from start (abt 16yr ish) to the very end of his life.

maybe .. you are mistaking him for Devdas.. Ermm 

Expected your reaction to be thisBig smile

Just to reassure you its no figment of my imagination and I definitely have better uses of my time than to spin melodramatic tales about rulers .

Nope I am not confused between Devdas and Shivaji.. I have more respect for the fictional devdas EmbarrassedHope you are not confused between  Shivaji and the Rajinikanth starrer movie Shivaji or the tamilian actor Shivaji.. Sure you are not ? Wink

I could post a list of authorities to support my stand here but then dear friend this is serious deviation from the debate topic.. Dont u think so ?? we were supposed to be talking about PRC n Sanyo , remember?

Hope Sagars make a serial on Shivaji too.. I know of a certain somebody who will be watching that for sure Tongue

I am sorry for deviating this topic, but this is something important for me and a bit serious issue. Bhuvana, from where did u get this info about Shivaji? Is it a strong source? Could  you please pm me the proofs you have, to support your point?

I have read Raja-Shiv Chatrapati by Babasaheb Purandare and many articles. According to my knowlegde:

1.He was great personality till the end. He died because of bad health at Rajgad fort. The biggest proof is his samadhi is still there (this contradicts your pointSmile).

2.Also he was never infatuated by any sort of temptation (may it be women or alcohol). He was having great respect towards women.Whenever he defeated his enemy, he respectfully freed their wives/daughters).

4.He respected even the muslim and other caste people. He always used to welcome anybody who was honest to him. 

3. In his forts, there are many evidences stating the reality about his career and life.

Hats off to Shivaji Maharaj ClapClapClap

 I m sorry if i m being harsh. I am silent reader on this forum but reading this topic I could not resist myself from mentioning the fact and reality. There are lots n lots of his great deeds to mention but right now I am running out of time! And please, this is my request, do not mention anything against any great personalities without proofs.

And about the debate topic, I don't think falling in Love with Sanyo was a mistake. But neglecting duty, was definitely a big mistake. Also failure has many reasons and acc to the serial "Honi ko koi nahi tal sakta" What happened was his fate.

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