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what if snape had lived....? (Page 5)

*Jane* Senior Member
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Posted: 14 December 2007 at 9:30am | IP Logged
Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

evidently Book 6 questioned  Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore..N DD put him in such a difficult Position..a position in which, had it been anyone else, he wud have just broken down..the pressure he was in...(which intensified I guess in Book 7)...god just unimaginable...But we understood and felt his loyalty after Prince's Tale na!?

Loyalty to Lily? yes, to anyone else (including Dumbledore, I'm afraid)...not so much, IMHO. Given a choice between Dumbledore and Lily, I think he'll pick Lily even if she was going to be the next Dark Lady or something. Lily, IMO, comes first to him but not really the people she loves and cares for. If Lily wasn't in the picture and there was a choice between Dumbledore and Voldemort, he would choose Voldemort because 1)he has done that before and 2)Voldemort can offer what Dumbledore can't and that is free reign with the dark arts.

That's probably why, I suppose, I consider Snapes want for Lily an obsession rather then love because it's only her he wants not necessarily her happiness. As I mentioned earlier, he was willing to have the people she cared for sacrificed so she'll live, how is that supposed to bring her happiness?

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

anyways as for DD part..u may call me a blind fan of his..But I just cant think that he cud have been flawed..the flaw he committed in book 5...I embrace it with love and acceptance coz it was just an emotional flaw...Embarrassed

Emotional flaw is still a flaw (no one after all is flawless) though your feelings are totally understandable. I, myself, admit to having blind loyalty to certain characters especially to one Draco Malfoy whom I've found every imaginable reason to turn endearing rather then repugnant. Big smile Can you tell I'm a fan? WinkLOL

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

agreed..which is why once when I said that the Soring Hat sorts too soon and no man's character can be judged in such a young age, pppl nearly bit my head off!Wink

I could imagine. Some people just choose to take whatever JK wrote in the books at face value, without looking at the whole picture. *shrugs*

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

Snape's Behavior to Harry: I have given My account abt that earlier..hat he was just too much "mean" to HarryWink that u just acnt Stand this guy sneering and smirking at Harry all the time..trying to pull his leg and have him thrown out..

Oh I can stand it, I just don't agree with it.

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

But his treatment to Harry wasnt a grave one..wasnt one which held a life changing consequence..

Perhaps not a bad consequence, but it's still an important plot point that tells us exactly what it is that pulls at his strings. As I mentioned before, given his unreasonable treatment of Harry one can accurately assume that Snapes emotions control him rather then his brain and the reasons (rather then it being right and the good that has come of it) why Snape decided to defect from the dark side, which was Lily, just reinforces that theory.

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

I already said that I feel he was always reminding himself that Harry is The sick Potter's son which was why he showed more hatred to Harry that he really had in hs heart..
Harry reminded him of James so much and in that way..His loss...and Harry was such a idiot Fellow in Snape's opinion, he was so disappointed at Lily's sonLOL
N Harry in no way, after the first yr, really showed any special lovability...LOLWink

I don't know about that... unlike Snape I have more cause to agree with Dumbledore on this. "You see what you expect to see, Severus. Other teachers report that the boy is modest, likable, and reasonably talented. Personally, I find him an engaging child."

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

As for his Love for Lily, he wasnt BLINDED by it..If he was, he wud have given up anything, even his obsesion with Dark Arts for her...

It's not that he wouldn't, I just don't think he had the chance to do so. He called her a "mudblood" and it ended the friendship as far as we know. Thinking that he'd lost her forever, he went after his other obsession (which you pointed out is the dark arts).

It seems Lily and the Dark Arts on the same scale for him and he was unwilling to give up either. Of course Lily is a person, a person who wasn't fond of the dark arts, so she gave him a choice. When he was unable to make one she made the decision for him.

Given a choice, which he was later in life, he would chose Lily. So why did he not choose before but when he met up with Dumbledore that fateful night? 1) back when he was a student he was too young, too selfish to do so 2) he had gotten a chance to dabble in the dark arts 3) Now that he has lived so many years without Lily and still longed for her, he saw this way a means of maybe perhaps reconciling. When Lily died guilt took over, guilt out of the idea that the women he claimed to have loved had died as a result of something he did. That is the reason why he protected Harry IMO. One can say that by finally realizing that protecting the person Lily loved so much makes Snape's obsession love and even I would've admitted as such. Him going through Sirius's stuff, though, and taking Lily's picture and a letter signed "lots of love, Lily" kindof disproves that. Whether this was his intention for raiding Grimmald place or not, it still remains that he stole these items, they weren't his own to use at his disposal. It's like someone breaking and entering into someone else's home to take a picture with them because they can't have the real thing. It's just way too creepy and way too obsessive to have gone through the trouble of doing such a thing. 

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

But true love surfaces and reveals its power and impact in u only slowly and only when u are most unprepared for it...and when it did for him, he didnt fail to recognise it and was courageous enough to do what had to be done...

I'm not saying he wasn't courageous. He was, certainly, but that courage was founded upon a foolish reason, which was Lily. Decisions should not be made on solely ones emotions. As it was mentioned earlier, however > Humans are flawed, Snape is a human thus he is flawed. So one can hardly blame the guy for being human but one can be critical of the reasons behind what he does regardless of the consequences of his actions.

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

  Lolz..Hilarious line JanE!LOL
Imagine Snape sayign that..He wud rather die btten a 1000 times by Nagini than uter such incongruous words!LOL


LOLLOLyeah, he probably would.LOL

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

I too like Debating..N here is one gal I have found who seems to love it equally or perhaps more!Wink Only hopw debating doesnt go to quarrelling coz we quarrel when we have nothing to argue


LOL I do believe I've been threatened numerous times with an interesting amount of graphic details to my demise. I find no interest in debating those who resort to name calling and threats.
I've debated many and have only had a civil debate with a very small percentage and an even smaller percentage have ever named me victor. Mind you, though, I'm not looking to win anything. I'm just looking for a lively debate with a person who can back up their points. Believe me when things simply cannot be agreed upon "agree to disagree" works very well. LOL Why just a few months back, I was debating someone on an issue and it got so long that we simply "agreed to disagree" out of boredom. It's nice to have contradicting opinions, makes the world go round, you know. Smile
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Posted: 15 December 2007 at 1:10am | IP Logged
Originally posted by *Jane*

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

evidently Book 6 questioned  Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore..N DD put him in such a difficult Position..a position in which, had it been anyone else, he wud have just broken down..the pressure he was in...(which intensified I guess in Book 7)...god just unimaginable...But we understood and felt his loyalty after Prince's Tale na!?


Loyalty to Lily? yes, to anyone else (including Dumbledore, I'm afraid)...not so much, IMHO. Given a choice between Dumbledore and Lily, I think he'll pick Lily even if she was going to be the next Dark Lady or something. Lily, IMO, comes first to him but not really the people she loves and cares for. If Lily wasn't in the picture and there was a choice between Dumbledore and Voldemort, he would choose Voldemort because 1)he has done that before and 2)Voldemort can offer what Dumbledore can't and that is free reign with the dark arts.

That's probably why, I suppose, I consider Snapes want for Lily an obsession rather then love because it's only her he wants not necessarily her happiness. As I mentioned earlier, he was willing to have the people she cared for sacrificed so she'll live, how is that supposed to bring her happiness?

well we are obviously then at the extremes of understanding in this issue and neither are we gonna succeed in hammering our opinions into anyone else...
Not Loyal To Dumbledore...?? Well Well...my dear when did I ever say "Given a choice b/w Lily and Dumbledore, he wud have chosen Dumbledore?!!!"LOL
see I am not talking abt His Loyalty to Dumbledore at the beginning(Read b4 Lily's death)...
After Lily's Death, he had a choice..He didnt Choose the path he did bcoz of Dumbledore...He chose it bcoz of his love for Lily(I absolutely I am determined to turn a deaf ear to ur "Obsession"Wink )
But later on, after book 5, ie: when DD asks him to Kill him and after all the things Dumbledore asks him to do..(what an atrocious Man DD was! in fact, he wants Snape to do everything he says but absolutely REFUSES to give him an explanation...Just trust me and do what I say...LOL But I love DD for he is just too good!Embarrassed)
Snape gets angry...as it is said in the bpook "Mutinous"..N he said "U take me a lot for granted Dumbledore"...
But even If DD hadnt answered His question, wud he have "changed his mind"...One cold say it was coz he loved Lily so much that this anger at being given no answers was shunned by that...
But after that stuff,m after all those demands DD makes of him...he does everything he tells him na?
But the best proof for his loyalty to Dumbledore I feel lies in Book 4, Goblet of Fire...Moody (fake) tells him that DD askes him to keep an eye on Snape..N he expression in Snape's face...his line "Dumbledore happens to TRUST me"...I surmised that for now, Dumbledore's Trust meant a lot to Snape and he cudnt bear to think and believe that his loyalty to him is being questioned....


Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

anyways as for DD part..u may call me a blind fan of his..But I just cant think that he cud have been flawed..the flaw he committed in book 5...I embrace it with love and acceptance coz it was just an emotional flaw...Embarrassed


Emotional flaw is still a flaw (no one after all is flawless) though your feelings are totally understandable. I, myself, admit to having blind loyalty to certain characters especially to one Draco Malfoy whom I've found every imaginable reason to turn endearing rather then repugnant. Big smile Can you tell I'm a fan? WinkLOL

Indeed..I understand...Draco--He is not one of my fav characters anyway..But from the beginning I had surmised his character o be anything but a coward...n good lord at the end in book 7...he turned out to be nothing but a coward (Sumthing whch may have glaringly been  felt coz here is a sea of Brave heroes!!!LOLLOLLOL)

as for The Emotional Flaw of DD's...I dun care..he is too good..His character makes a sort of impression so terriffic and mesmerising that u cant blame one for maybe loving him more that ever for making sum flaws like this! he does it with such grace!LOLWink

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

Snape's Behavior to Harry: I have given My account abt that earlier..hat he was just too much "mean" to HarryWink that u just acnt Stand this guy sneering and smirking at Harry all the time..trying to pull his leg and have him thrown out..


Oh I can stand it, I just don't agree with it.

LOL as u said..we will just agree to disagree...

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

But his treatment to Harry wasnt a grave one..wasnt one which held a life changing consequence..


Perhaps not a bad consequence, but it's still an important plot point that tells us exactly what it is that pulls at his strings. As I mentioned before, given his unreasonable treatment of Harry one can accurately assume that Snapes emotions control him rather then his brain and the reasons (rather then it being right and the good that has come of it) why Snape decided to defect from the dark side, which was Lily, just reinforces that theory.

u put it yaar.."He loves, lives, breaths Lily." n I agree there!LOL
But he wasnt a maniac who didnt have any emotional stand of his own! He maynot have lived for the love of his own life and for Lily's son n whatever stuff...
I said earlier that b4 Lily's death, his emotions were kinda in the backstage giving space to more or less his obsession for Dark Arts...but then indeed he obeyed what he Heart told him to...It was good isnt it?
as for his unreasonable treatment to Harry..I already gave My account to what I think was his real motive behind that..I grow weaary of repeating it again n again...

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

I already said that I feel he was always reminding himself that Harry is The sick Potter's son which was why he showed more hatred to Harry that he really had in hs heart..
Harry reminded him of James so much and in that way..His loss...and Harry was such a idiot Fellow in Snape's opinion, he was so disappointed at Lily's sonLOL
N Harry in no way, after the first yr, really showed any special lovability...LOLWink


I don't know about that... unlike Snape I have more cause to agree with Dumbledore on this. "You see what you expect to see, Severus. Other teachers report that the boy is modest, likable, and reasonably talented. Personally, I find him an engaging child."

I too agree  that he indeed saw what he expected to se..He didnt want to see Lily in him..he wanted to see James in him..he wanted to see that Lily's and JAMES'(Wink) son is just the same arrogant Toerag as his father...

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

As for his Love for Lily, he wasnt BLINDED by it..If he was, he wud have given up anything, even his obsesion with Dark Arts for her...


It's not that he wouldn't, I just don't think he had the chance to do so. He called her a "mudblood" and it ended the friendship as far as we know. Thinking that he'd lost her forever, he went after his other obsession (which you pointed out is the dark arts).

It seems Lily and the Dark Arts on the same scale for him and he was unwilling to give up either. Of course Lily is a person, a person who wasn't fond of the dark arts, so she gave him a choice. When he was unable to make one she made the decision for him.

"Lily and the Dark Arts on the same scale for him"---I am abt to retch..CryOuch
u urself said in his discussion that one cannot really measure and guage the magnitude of Love...
It was in his fury and humiliation that he called Lily a Mudblood.."It just..Slipped out"
and baap e..look at what James dd..I mean that act of James and Sirius(though no one really knew it) was one of the decisive factors in Snape's life..at least to himself, wudnt Snape have said that is all Cozof what James did...he started it and it led to him accidently callingher a mudblood..or else one of this wud have happened..
We know that anyhow sooner or later, Lily wud have made the decision coz of his irresisable attraction n love for Dark Arts...But Snape is Human..he wud have told otherwise o his heart...Embarrassed
everyone judged his anger and hatred towards James as a mere "Schoolboy's grudge"..but we know better now na?
Snape Loved Dark arts he did..But he gave up his obsession with it when he understood that his true love will eat him up from i\nside otherwise...
a Selflessness in a Very selfish interest maybe...maybe what awes me if the alienity of such an objective n act

Given a choice, which he was later in life, he would chose Lily. So why did he not choose before but when he met up with Dumbledore that fateful night? 1) back when he was a student he was too young, too selfish to do so 2) he had gotten a chance to dabble in the dark arts 3) Now that he has lived so many years without Lily and still longed for her, he saw this way a means of maybe perhaps reconciling.

Possibly he did...I give my answer to this in the next ans...LOL
But plz do remember..age has its vulnerabilities...experiance only helps  cover 'em up a small bit...

When Lily died guilt took over, guilt out of the idea that the women he claimed to have loved had died as a result of something he did. That is the reason why he protected Harry IMO. One can say that by finally realizing that protecting the person Lily loved so much makes Snape's obsession love and even I would've admitted as such. Him going through Sirius's stuff, though, and taking Lily's picture and a letter signed "lots of love, Lily" kindof disproves that. Whether this was his intention for raiding Grimmald place or not, it still remains that he stole these items, they weren't his own to use at his disposal. It's like someone breaking and entering into someone else's home to take a picture with them because they can't have the real thing. It's just way too creepy and way too obsessive to have gone through the trouble of doing such a thing. 

My god 'STOLE'!!!LOLLOLLOL

But you're a poet, and I'm a simple mortal, and therefore I will say one must look at things from the simplest, most practical point of view (Practical but not overlooking the basic human sentimentS).
I, for one, have long since freed myself from all shackles, and even obligations. I only recognize obligations when I see I have something to gain by them.(what did Snape Gain by "stealing" that letter? Just a memory..It dosnt hurt to steal a memory)  You yearn for the ideal, for virtue. But, my dear friend, I am ready to recognize anything you tell me to, but what shall I do if I know for a fact that at the root of all human virtues lies the most intense human egoism and wanting?( an egoism that stems just out of love in his heart and which cannot be blamed..)

He didnt go to Grimmauld Place to steal letters n tit bits...He went there with an inention to keep the Order Safe..and confronted by sumthing which had the Love of the wman he loved(sumthing he lacked so much)..He wudnt need a "memoir" to back up..as his proof for Love..But when he saw this Letter...with her love..he was obviously "melted to tears" and for one moment of intense selfishness and longing...he took it along...
If he was looking for dat..he wud have gone and catapulated the only ramsacked house in Godric's Hollow..he wasnt a senti fellow..But when he got this golden oppo...he gave way to his emotions..if u find it stealing, I am sorry I cannot agree...

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

But true love surfaces and reveals its power and impact in u only slowly and only when u are most unprepared for it...and when it did for him, he didnt fail to recognise it and was courageous enough to do what had to be done...


I'm not saying he wasn't courageous. He was, certainly, but that courage was founded upon a foolish reason, which was Lily. Decisions should not be made on solely ones emotions. As it was mentioned earlier, however > Humans are flawed, Snape is a human thus he is flawed. So one can hardly blame the guy for being human but one can be critical of the reasons behind what he does regardless of the consequences of his actions.

That depends of perceptions..U may view his reason foolish...or maybe sumone who is too prudent is bound to feel so..
I dont..I find it much more sacred...
U have two contradictory points there...1: that decisions should be based on one's emotions only...
Its not mandatory that Decisions shouldnt solely be rooted on ur emotions..to argue..one may win that way...Bbcoz thats a very practical point..But in life..each n every decision in founded basically on ur emotions...
2: that "afterall Snape was  Human..."...I have been trying to tell exactly that...how can u demand a completely prudent and "only based on ur wisdom n celeverness" kinda wisdom from a human, who as u agree...is always flawed in one way or the other...?



Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

I too like Debating..N here is one gal I have found who seems to love it equally or perhaps more!Wink Only hopw debating doesnt go to quarrelling coz we quarrel when we have nothing to argue


LOL I do believe I've been threatened numerous times with an interesting amount of graphic details to my demise. I find no interest in debating those who resort to name calling and threats.
I've debated many and have only had a civil debate with a very small percentage and an even smaller percentage have ever named me victor. Mind you, though, I'm not looking to win anything. I'm just looking for a lively debate with a person who can back up their points. Believe me when things simply cannot be agreed upon "agree to disagree" works very well. LOL Why just a few months back, I was debating someone on an issue and it got so long that we simply "agreed to disagree" out of boredom. It's nice to have contradicting opinions, makes the world go round, you know. Smile

Lolz..I dont judge debators..I am not upto doing that..I argue n I forget what I said...I said this b4..I cant really call my arguemnts "civil debate" or whatever coz I am just gifted with the art of blabbing which I utilise only too well..Wink
My intention is basically to keep at least one thread in this forum alive..
HP section used to be sooactive b4..But now....Cry


Edited by lucky_lakshmi - 15 December 2007 at 3:17am
lucky_lakshmi IF-Sizzlerz
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Posted: 15 December 2007 at 1:26am | IP Logged
Understanding the stuff in a book acc to one's own theories n beliefs..thats what we all do..there is no ONLY ONE RIGHT way of udnerstanding it...Coz the sentiments of every person differs..
so the fact that we understand and accept it differently makes Harry Potter Sorta Chinese Landscape..where u dont borrow the wrietrs' eyes..u enter the artist's heart and understand it to suit urself..
so this discussion evidently is going no where...coz we both know that but still wanna prove our theories superior...
HUMAN Wink
chatterbox IF-Sizzlerz
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Posted: 15 December 2007 at 3:57am | IP Logged
Clap
well done both of u
and i think i agree too this discussion cud go on and on

but i starter of this topic has enjoyed it thouroughly

well done again
*Jane* Senior Member
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Posts: 479

Posted: 16 December 2007 at 9:46pm | IP Logged
First off, I'm making this two posts 'cause this is just way too long.

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

well we are obviously then at the extremes of understanding in this issue and neither are we gonna succeed in hammering our opinions into anyone else...
Not Loyal To Dumbledore...?? Well Well...my dear when did I ever say "Given a choice b/w Lily and Dumbledore, he wud have chosen Dumbledore?!!!"LOL
see I am not talking abt His Loyalty to Dumbledore at the beginning(Read b4 Lily's death)...
After Lily's Death, he had a choice..He didnt Choose the path he did bcoz of Dumbledore...He chose it bcoz of his love for Lily(I absolutely I am determined to turn a deaf ear to ur "Obsession"Wink )
But later on, after book 5, ie: when DD asks him to Kill him and after all the things Dumbledore asks him to do..(what an atrocious Man DD was! in fact, he wants Snape to do everything he says but absolutely REFUSES to give him an explanation...Just trust me and do what I say...LOL But I love DD for he is just too good!Embarrassed)
Snape gets angry...as it is said in the bpook "Mutinous"..N he said "U take me a lot for granted Dumbledore"...
But even If DD hadnt answered His question, wud he have "changed his mind"...One cold say it was coz he loved Lily so much that this anger at being given no answers was shunned by that...
But after that stuff,m after all those demands DD makes of him...he does everything he tells him na?
But the best proof for his loyalty to Dumbledore I feel lies in Book 4, Goblet of Fire...Moody (fake) tells him that DD askes him to keep an eye on Snape..N he expression in Snape's face...his line "Dumbledore happens to TRUST me"...I surmised that for now, Dumbledore's Trust meant a lot to Snape and he cudnt bear to think and believe that his loyalty to him is being questioned....

That's why I said "Given a choice..." If Lily had lived (forget that Lily's death was the catalyst for Snape changing sides in the first place) Snape would definitely choose her over Dumbledore. It's a hypothetical situation. If one were to measure Snape's loyalty for Dumbledore to his loyalty to Lily, Lily would always come up first.

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

Indeed..I understand...Draco--He is not one of my fav characters anyway..But from the beginning I had surmised his character o be anything but a coward...n good lord at the end in book 7...he turned out to be nothing but a coward (Sumthing whch may have glaringly been  felt coz here is a sea of Brave heroes!!!LOLLOLLOL)

Shocked, Oh my! I've never considered Draco to be anything of the sort. The boy is snotty, selfish, self-centered, annoying, spoiled, narcissistic, coward and mean among other things. Never has brave ever crossed my mind… he's got a heart, though. When push comes to shove he'll bend over backwards for his family and the people that he loves. I do believe that is the only redeeming quality in the man. What, I meant by making him seem endearing is by making excuses for his less then ethical behavior (I probably sound like his mother in that respect). Like when he calls someone a name, I'd say "Poor kid, he grew up with a family of sadist purebloods. It's not his fault that he was taught wrong". LOL, You can say I'm blind, irrevocably blind to his many faults.

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

as for The Emotional Flaw of DD's...I dun care..he is too good..His character makes a sort of impression so terriffic and mesmerising that u cant blame one for maybe loving him more that ever for making sum flaws like this! he does it with such grace!LOLWink

Join my club of people in denial of their favorite characters many faults. WinkLOL

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi


Originally posted by *Jane*


Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

Snape's Behavior to Harry: I have given My account abt that earlier..hat he was just too much "mean" to HarryWink that u just acnt Stand this guy sneering and smirking at Harry all the time..trying to pull his leg and have him thrown out..

Oh I can stand it, I just don't agree with it.


LOL as u said..we will just agree to disagree...

What I meant by my comment was that I don't agree with the way Snape treats Harry. I can stand his taunting, I just don't agree with it. I suppose I'm conflicted in that regards as I don't think it's right for him to treat Harry the way he does but it's so much fun to see him do so.

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi


u put it yaar.."He loves, lives, breaths Lily." n I agree there!LOL
But he wasnt a maniac who didnt have any emotional stand of his own! He maynot have lived for the love of his own life and for Lily's son n whatever stuff...

Maybe not, but the evidence in the book proves otherwise. To see what that was read this very debate. We both agree that it's because of Lily that he did the things that he has done (regardless of our conflicted feelings on what that emotion is for Lily).

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

I said earlier that b4 Lily's death his emotions were kinda in the backstage giving space to more or less his obsession for Dark Arts...but then indeed he obeyed what he Heart told him to...It was good isnt it?

This is why I wrote in the parenthesis "rather then it being right and the good that has come of it." Just because it was good that he chose this path doesn't mean he had done it out of courage. He did it out of his obsession for Lily. Think of it this way. If Lily had joined the ranks of the death eaters and Snape was this goody, goody who always did the right thing but his emotions remained the same for Lily. He would go on and join the DE's along with Lily, knowing very well that this is not right, as his brain says, but he wouldn't care zilch for that because he wants Lily.

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

as for his unreasonable treatment to Harry..I already gave My account to what I think was his real motive behind that..I grow weaary of repeating it again n again...

The reason I'm connecting these two points to prove that his emotions control Snape is because his protection of Harry came from his emotions , that of obsession/love, for Lily and his ill treatment of Harry came from his emotions, that of hate, for James.

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

"Lily and the Dark Arts on the same scale for him"---I am abt to retch..CryOuch
u urself said in his discussion that one cannot really measure and guage the magnitude of Love...

Where exactly did I say this? I do recall saying that Love is an undefinable term because many people's definitions of love differ and there are so many ways one uses the term "love." As for the scale thing - the choices that he made and the way he acted tells the level of want/love/obsession he had for the dark arts and Lily. IMO, the level seems just about the same. Just because he did one over the other in different times and consecutively doesn't mean he didn't desire both the same, just means that the other wasn't exactly an option when one was. He may have wanted Lily a tad (just a little) bit more then he wanted the DA's, though.

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

It was in his fury and humiliation that he called Lily a Mudblood.."It just..Slipped out"
and baap e..look at what James dd..I mean that act of James and Sirius(though no one really knew it) was one of the decisive factors in Snape's life..at least to himself, wudnt Snape have said that is all Cozof what James did...he started it and it led to him accidently callingher a mudblood..or else one of this wud have happened..
We know that anyhow sooner or later, Lily wud have made the decision coz of his irresisable attraction n love for Dark Arts...But Snape is Human..he wud have told otherwise o his heart...Embarrassed
everyone judged his anger and hatred towards James as a mere "Schoolboy's grudge"..but we know better now na?
Snape Loved Dark arts he did..But he gave up his obsession with it when he understood that his true love will eat him up from i\nside otherwise...
a Selflessness in a Very selfish interest maybe...maybe what awes me if the alienity of such an objective n act

I don't quite understand what you're getting at here. It just seems you're repeating the same thing that I said, just in more detail.

*Jane* Senior Member
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Posted: 16 December 2007 at 9:56pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

My god 'STOLE'!!!

But you're a poet, and I'm a simple mortal, and therefore I will say one must look at things from the simplest, most practical point of view (Practical but not overlooking the basic human sentimentS).
I, for one, have long since freed myself from all shackles, and even obligations. I only recognize obligations when I see I have something to gain by them.(what did Snape Gain by "stealing" that letter? Just a memory..It dosnt hurt to steal a memory)  You yearn for the ideal, for virtue. But, my dear friend, I am ready to recognize anything you tell me to, but what shall I do if I know for a fact that at the root of all human virtues lies the most intense human egoism and wanting?( an egoism that stems just out of love in his heart and which cannot be blamed..)

He didnt go to Grimmauld Place to steal letters n tit bits...He went there with an inention to keep the Order Safe..and confronted by sumthing which had the Love of the wman he loved(sumthing he lacked so much)..He wudnt need a "memoir" to back up..as his proof for Love..But when he saw this Letter...with her love..he was obviously "melted to tears" and for one moment of intense selfishness and longing...he took it along...
If he was looking for dat..he wud have gone and catapulated the only ramsacked house in Godric's Hollow..he wasnt a senti fellow..But when he got this golden oppo...he gave way to his emotions..if u find it stealing, I am sorry I cannot agree...


I do hope you don't mean that stealing memory thing literally because in the Harry Potter world that could lead to all sorts of catastrophes.LOL

In all seriousness, though, it's not about hurting.
I did say "Whether this was his intention for raiding Grimmald place or not, it still remains that he stole these items, they weren't his own to use at his disposal."
Let me elaborate. He took what wasn't his to take. That picture wasn't given to him, wasn't taken by him and to Lily's knowledge may not have ever been reached to him. That "Lots of love, Lily" wasn't for him either, it was to Sirius. For him to take these items and pretend that Lily wanted him by seeing her laughing face everyday in that picture and reading the words of endearment, makes him way too attached to her in a way that's beyond just simple love, it's a want of a magnitude that quite simply the only word that I can think of that can explain it, is obsession.


Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

That depends of perceptions..U may view his reason foolish...or maybe sumone who is too prudent is bound to feel so..
I dont..I find it much more sacred...
U have two contradictory points there...1: that decisions should be based on one's emotions only...

No I did not say this my exact quote was "Decisions should not be made on solely ones emotions."

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

Its not mandatory that Decisions shouldnt solely be rooted on ur emotions..to argue..one may win that way...Bbcoz thats a very practical point..


I disagree with you on this. IMO, it's simply not practical to let emotions and only emotions guide one without giving consideration to what one's brain has to say...unless you meant the opposite of what I thought you meant. There's alot of not's in there, it makes my head go abuzz.

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

But in life..each n every decision in founded basically on ur emotions...

Human actions do stem from our emotions. I didn't/don't argue that. What I'm saying is that Snape did what he did only out of emotion rather then anything his brain provided. Again I'll compare his ill treatment of Harry with this (and I explained above why this is) and why it's practical for one to assume as such. Lets also take a look at what he gave up for helping Harry for Lily. When learning the news about Lily, Snape would've gotten these messages from his heart and brain:

His heart (emotions) says that Snape wants to be with Lily. He obsesses over her/is in love with her.
His brain provides. A. The DA's aren't the most ethical of things to do and that defecting from this side would be ethically right B. that Lily is married and has a child, and chances of her being with Snape is next to impossible. He has got a good thing going with the DA's. The Dark Lord likes him. He's among the inner circle and he could putter about with the DA's and no worries of being restricted to do so.

Now I would wonder why he would give up everything for the women that may not ever return his feelings? I don't think he was too concerned with the ethicality of what he was doing. He was driven by his feelings for Lily and nothing else. Everything he ever does is driven solely by his feelings. He doesn't stop to think of the consequences, if this is what is best or whether it should be done, which IMO is a foolish thing to do.


Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

2: that "afterall Snape was  Human..."...I have been trying to tell exactly that...how can u demand a completely prudent and "only based on ur wisdom n celeverness" kinda wisdom from a human, who as u agree...is always flawed in one way or the other...?


I'm not asking anything of him. The only reason I like him is because he is flawed. I'm just judging him. Which after all, all characters are once they've been developed. We like to judge. Humans judge on everyones mistakes. I'm judging on his. Isn't that what this debate about - judging of this character?

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

Lolz..I dont judge debators..I am not upto doing that..I argue n I forget what I said...I said this b4..I cant really call my arguemnts "civil debate" or whatever coz I am just gifted with the art of blabbing which I utilise only too well..


It is a civil debate as far as I'm concerned. You haven't once threatened me...

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

My intention is basically to keep at least one thread in this forum alive..
HP section used to be sooactive b4..But now....


Embarrassed, Opps, I was one of those who left this board a while ago. I had totally forgotten about this forum until I went through my registration list.  LOLEmbarrassed

*Jane* Senior Member
*Jane*
*Jane*

Joined: 25 October 2004
Posts: 479

Posted: 16 December 2007 at 10:04pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

Understanding the stuff in a book acc to one's own theories n beliefs..thats what we all do..there is no ONLY ONE RIGHT way of udnerstanding it...Coz the sentiments of every person differs..
so the fact that we understand and accept it differently makes Harry Potter Sorta Chinese Landscape..where u dont borrow the wrietrs' eyes..u enter the artist's heart and understand it to suit urself..
so this discussion evidently is going no where...coz we both know that but still wanna prove our theories superior...
HUMAN Wink


My sentiments - exactly.
Perhaps we really should end this with a "agree to disagree". LOL Besides I think we're going to be resorting to repeating our arguments (I think we've done a couple already). What do you think, "agree to disagree"?


lucky_lakshmi IF-Sizzlerz
lucky_lakshmi
lucky_lakshmi

Joined: 27 February 2005
Posts: 10594

Posted: 16 December 2007 at 11:25pm | IP Logged
Ok Jane...we will agree to disagree...
Snape reminds m of Gravity of Love...I guess I will stick on to it bcoz deep in ur mind, every one thinks that they have the better point..
Embarrassed

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