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what if snape had lived....? (Page 3)

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lucky_lakshmi

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lucky_lakshmi

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Posted: 13 December 2007 at 2:48am | IP Logged
Originally posted by chatterbox



but if u see the whole story it was becoz snape heard half the prophecy and told voldy

so in a way he was also responsible for potter's death

no wonder harry went mad when he found that out in book 6th
but snape still continued to protect harry becoz of guilt i guess rather than love



Yes indeed..which was what I said b4 that Snape's feeling of personal responsibilty for Lily's death was one of the deciding factors of the Choice he made in Dumbledore's Office that day after Lily's death...But I completely disagree with ur point that Snape protected Harry coz of guilt....thats disgracing our Prince! How can u yaar??? Snape was indeed guilty of it..But remember he is more or less as guilty of Lily and Jame's death as Sirius Black is..Sirius was the one who adviced Lily N James to sawp Secret kEEPER to QWormtail..he did it with good heart and for the ebst..But unintentioanlly that lead to Wormtail knowing their location n gibing them away..so isnt he almost as unintentionally reponsible as Snape??! Coz Snape never knew who the Prophecy Concerned..he did it with no good intention but had it concerned Lily in any way..he wudnt have given such an information to Voldemort that has all the prababilities of threatenning Lily's life...(dun tell me if he knew, he wud have even then told Voldy abt it and made a deal...Bcoz Jane herself said once...that one shud contemplete on the imagination of the author but at the same time..not go forwards to make stupid guesses....one of the achievements of HP is that inspite of being a wacko story, it was never silly or stupid)
He wasnt Protecting Harry coz of Guilt..His Guilt , shame added to his Love together lead him to make that decisive Choice to protect the son of the woman he loved and thats why he did it...


Edited by lucky_lakshmi - 13 December 2007 at 3:32am

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lucky_lakshmi

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lucky_lakshmi

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Posted: 13 December 2007 at 2:59am | IP Logged
Originally posted by chatterbox



i also found it weird goin into someone bedroom and tearing up that bit
but i guess thats one kind of love where u dont let go of the person u love and u hold on to the memories

still i wud say if snape had lived there cud hv been something different not totally but something different yes

but by killing snape jkr finished the era which began with power egos and jealousy and all that

snape wud hv died any way
finally i still feel snape had a powerful character in the entire series

more than harry or voldy or dumbledore

what u say



N U call it wierd..whats WIERD anyway?? He went to Grimmauld Place to search the place to make sure that no clues of the OOTP are left behind...
an while he was searching, he found a letter of Lily's n obviously he tore the letter and took the latter half which had her "LOVE" (It was signed "Love, Lily")Wink whats wierd..he loved her and she never did and now he took sumthing hat had her love..I dun find it out of character at all..It was he least wierd thing he did!LOL
as for clutching on to those memories..they wre, allow me to say, kind of a lifeline for this man..he lived after Lily died only to make sure that she didnt die in vain..his love compelled him to do so..he lived for Lily and dwelled on those memories...recall his own words in The Prince's Tale.."I wish I were Dead..."
he didnt live for greed or love of life..but love for memories of a late woman...Wink

By killing Snape, she gave us the oppurtunity of Character Study...Snape wasnt a mean person..his life indeed began with egos, wanting of power..But he had a good heart..he chose the way his heart indicated over what his brain indicated at the time when that decision decided the course and consequence of his life...
Snape was a man who changed from wrong ways...committing wrongs is human, to correct them and to follow the path of redemption, it takes lots of guts..

I cant say I think Snape to be a stronger character than Dumbledore..for I believe that a man who even at the face of hs own death cann smile and manipulate the plot, the man who has to scarifice so much but yet pretend to have no worries..to keep cool at all times and paste a huge and reassuring smile on his face all the time, and at the same time to live with grief at a terrible wrong u did that took a toll of ur sister's life, n led to his Brother's unforgiving hatred...and to redeem the wrong u did..it takes much much more guts...Snape at leas had the relief of showing out his anger and frustration thru his irritating indifference...Wink




Edited by lucky_lakshmi - 13 December 2007 at 3:04am

chatterbox

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chatterbox

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Posted: 13 December 2007 at 3:11am | IP Logged

wow LL and jane

what wonderful answers

Clap

i think u both gave equally great answers and views from both point of view

and u both answerd the doubt which i was having

i never thought of it that way

wonderful i knew i wud get my answers here and at first i wondered if this section is still on as all must have read deathly hallows by now

 but i accept ur views both of u

hats off girls u explained very well

ok there is nt any hats off icon here so wud clap again

Clap

lucky_lakshmi

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lucky_lakshmi

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Posted: 13 December 2007 at 3:27am | IP Logged
Originally posted by *Jane*

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

I respect ur views Jane but it does seem the both of us have few contrasting Ideas...
Voldemort was right in one point that u mentioned..."He desired her..."
but desire doesnt necessarily mean it was an Obsession...If anyone was obsessed with anything in HP--That is Voldy Mouldy who was obsesed with himself...

There are various forms of love. Snape's love for Lily was much more …intense then what one would normally have. I'm not saying he didn't love her, I'm just saying that obsession would probably be a better term to describe  Snape's feelings for Lily

well But I dont quite agree with that expression..Maybe bcoz my definition of the same seems to be different...

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

Snape on the other Hand, didnt fall in madly obsessed with Lily...He was kinda madly in love..
why I say this is coz...Obsession doesnt have the perseverance, Purity and strength of true Love..Obsession is Imapatient, is selfish, is kind of a insanity...


My sentiments, exactly.
His obsession may not have been as "insane" as some peoples (after all obsession comes in many forms) but he was willing to have Harry die in exchange for Lily's life. IMO that's not something one does for the person one loves. It's something someone does out of obsession. Love (pure love, not the obsessive kind) is not asking to kill the child to spare the mother.

He didnt say to Voldemort "Kill the Boy, Spare Lily"..He didnt make a deal with him...he only tried a hand at begging him to spare at least her..He didnt care for James (N neither wud I have if I was in his position[God Forbid!]_)
n Harry..why wud he?? he is the proof of his loss! Snape wasnt a saint..he was tempted to all the wrong ways but unlike Voldemort he had the ability to feel..he had a heart which cud love and unlike some other death Eaters he had the courage to recognise that and choose his path...

as for "Purity" exppression...U know My view of Love has very much changed after I recently read a novel by Tolstoy...there is no really "pure as water" love...every love is tainted..every love is selfish...every love stems from love for oneself...Every Love wants that love back...The other kind of Sacrificing love occurs only in imagination n is not at all prudent..Myabe in some cases it is if it is in case of an innocent person wrapped from realities of life..Snape wasnt one..he was a shrewd clever man who knew n had experianced much...

Snape was a young, misled man when he made a wrong, a very wrong decision...but he understood better only later and his love got more n more pure with each passing day...

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

Snape was not insane..he was as sane or perhaps more than all the other HP characters


Well, maybe not insane, per say - but, IMO, he was pretty …creepy for a lack of a better word. This was, though, only after I read the memories. When he was crying over Lily's letter and ripping photos to keep her pic, I wanted to slap him and say "Snap out of it. She has been dead for like forever. Get over it! You're a smart bloke. Dive back into the pool. You'll find someone"

HAHA...Creepy is quiet Good..But Creepy is nowhere near Insane..
or maybe I will sai HE IS SANE..
Bcoz A sane man is simply a better liar that an insane man...LOL
Lolz..n had u done that he wud have shreiked sectumsempra on u!!!Wink

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

N If he obsessed Lily, then he wud have gona mad at her going off with that SICK Potter, he wud have hated everything abt er..


Not necessarily. He may have hated her for marrying James, we don't know. Obsession (like love or any other emotion) isn't something you can just turn off. Love is something, where one should (and will) be willing to give everything for. Snape doesn't, he didn't plan to.

no I diagree with ur definition of Love..But now this discussion cannot turn to love...Obsession is creepy...a Creepy man may not necessarily be obseessive...
and Love isnt sumthing where One WILL give everything up for it...I said this b4 n say it again..Love stems from love for urself too...But Love isnt revengeful or repulsive..Snape's Love was neither..
He didnt give everything up..Bcoz Obsession is almost all the time more appealing and satisfying ur hunger for the time being that Love...same story is Snape's...He was indeed Obsessed with Dark Arts...n he chose a wrong way at that time which he redeemed later though he indeed had to pay a terrible prince (His peace of mind) for that... Obsession wears of..Love doesnt...


Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

Bcoz Obsession is merely a progressed stage of Infatuation…


Of course it is. Pure/normal/true love is also an elevated stage of infatuation and it can go both ways.

It can make u land up in asylum u mean!LOL

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

and it was at that time that he first saw Lily..Haila "Love at first sight"..It wasnt love at first sight but something in her must have attracted him..


Of course, her magic is what attracted him. She probably was the only other person in the entire town that could do magic other then him. Something like bonding over common interests, abilities etc…

Yeah I guess I agree there...but sumthing mroe too which made him prepaare to overlook the fact that she was a "Mudblood"(sry for the expression)...he jeered on all other Muggle Borns..But he didnt care if she was one!Wink

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

fine..But after that , they became FRIENDS..BEST FRIENDS...N Recall Lily's question abt his Family n all..for the first time, Severus had actually found someone who cares for him...who seemed to LIKE HIM...N that surprise welcome feeling was embraced wholeheartedly by him and he preogressed thru the path of loving her...N even after she abandoned him (for all the right reasons, in all fairness to Lily), He continued loving and Caring for her...He didnt start kinda hating her for leaving him, for going with James..he still loved her--he didnt get surly though he hated James and I dun see why he shudnt hate him…


We don't know what he felt when he found out about James. He may have gotten surly, he may have broken a few vases, he might have gone to both Lily and James (wouldn't surprise me if they gave him a restriction order) with intent to kill James and kidnap Lily… He might have done a lot of things. We don't know. Again obsession isn't something you can turn on or off. One can hate someone all they want, doesn't stop them from wanting them.

haha..plz yaar..U are choking me!! Plz dont ruin this character whom JK Rowling herself calls "a gift of a character"!LOL I am sure that he did none of that stupidity...no one knew he loved Lily so much...not even Lily...

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

One may call it kinda "MAD LOVE" Coz DD says when Snape asks him to Protect Lily that "You dont care what happens to her husband and child as long as u have what u wish"--


Exactly, as I mentioned earlier this is not "pure" love. You don't take away the things, specially the people, that matter to them for ones own selfish reasons. Mad love is obsession.

Mad Love isnt Obsession...Mad Love is Love that is too rooted in ur heart that u cannot get over it and ur goal is surrounded by just that love...
Obsesion isnt deeply rooted...it wears off..
as for the "purity" part..my opinion given above already....

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

Not the exact line but more or less I think I got the meaning right...so He indeed 'desired' her even then...But after her death..there stops his "Desire"...N there surfaces the true love that was in his heart for her...and I guess to a large extend, his feeling of personal responsibility for her death, made his position no easier…


IMO his need to look after Harry was more out of guilt and loyalty to Lily then because he "loved" her. Plus, It's not healthy to pine over someone that long. When one starts rummaging though peoples bedrooms to find small scraps of paper with sentimentalities written (to someone else) from a person who's been dead for one and a half decade does make it an obsession.

I have given my take on tha "wierd' thing he did in Sirius' bedroom b4...I found it a very profound moment...

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

n then, he lived only to protect the son of the woman whom he loved with all his heart (the only woman he loved in fact), the only person who showed concern and friendship for him when he lacked it all very much...the woman who died to preotect her son...Snape loved her so much that he didnt want her to die in vain..


He was willing to sacrifice the very child she wanted to protect. Again one doesn't do that to people they love. Snape's love for Lily went beyond what one would call true/normal/pure love. Obsession doesn't necessarily need to be something one acts on. Obsession of something consumes a persons mind, body and soul. If the very meaning of Snape's entire life was Lily, it's probably safe to assume that she consumed his very being thus making his love/desire/want for her an obsession. 

Obsession my hat!LOL

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

I believ his love was he reason Voldemort never was able to rea;l;y interpret his true allegiance..coz among the things Voldemort doenst understand are Love, selflessness and friendship among many others...I suspect Snape's love gave him the strength to close his mind to the entire world…


Love has nothing to do with it. Harry has got more love to offer but he's horrid at occlumency. It's all in the mind and how desperately one wanted to protect those thoughts swirling on the surface. Knowing the reaction his master would have, if said master found out about his change in alliance, is more then enough reason to ward off any incriminating memories successfully.

Voldy no longer cud enter Harry's heart bcoz of Harry's good heart full of love and more of these subtle feeling..N how the hell can u say LOVE HAS NOTHONG TO DO WITH IT?!! What gave Dumbledore the strength to do "all he did..u know what"...it was his love for the world)(whatta a crazy guy ...Running behiind the greater good!Wink)
Snape was amazing in Occlumency..n added to that..His will power which stemmed from his love for Lily, there was no way Voldy cud penetrate into his mind and understand that he is being made the fool...



all said and done,
We believe what we want to believe...
N No one is satisfied with their fortune but everyone is satisfied with their intelligence...Smile


Edited by lucky_lakshmi - 13 December 2007 at 3:41am

lucky_lakshmi

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lucky_lakshmi

Joined: 27 February 2005

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Posted: 13 December 2007 at 3:28am | IP Logged
Originally posted by chatterbox

wow LL and jane

what wonderful answers

Clap

i think u both gave equally great answers and views from both point of view

and u both answerd the doubt which i was having

i never thought of it that way

wonderful i knew i wud get my answers here and at first i wondered if this section is still on as all must have read deathly hallows by now

 but i accept ur views both of u

hats off girls u explained very well

ok there is nt any hats off icon here so wud clap again

Clap


Lolz Cheers Yar!! But U know...its not abt really "explaining"...not at least in my case..Its the art of Bragging!WinkLOL

*Jane*

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*Jane*

Joined: 25 October 2004

Posts: 479

Posted: 13 December 2007 at 5:45am | IP Logged
Maybe it is that you consider obsession to be something putrid. An emotion that hurts the person and the people around them. That's not true. Sure there are a few weirdoes out there but obsessive love is different from pure love in the sense that when it's obsessive you care about yourself and what you get from that other person that you love (it's a great desire for longing and want for that other person) while pure love is where you love them and want them to be happy no matter the cost to you.
You yourself said that most love is not pure. Most couples have just plain love (somewhere in-between pure and obsessive - give and take, meeting half-way on the road compromising type of love and is almost always reciprocated). Obsessive love isn't exactly something that can only be felt by those who are insane. As long as the emotion is intense enough for the person they love.
I consider James Potter to have had an obsessive love for Lily at one point which turned into the more mundane and common - love.

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

Yeah I guess I agree there...but sumthing mroe too which made him prepaare to overlook the fact that she was a "Mudblood"(sry for the expression)...he jeered on all other Muggle Borns..But he didnt care if she was one!

Of course he didn't care. She was the first person who even bothered to care about him. He wasn't about to start questioning here validity to be his friend when she was the only true friend he had.

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

haha..plz yaar..U are choking me!! Plz dont ruin this character whom JK Rowling herself calls "a gift of a character"! I am sure that he did none of that stupidity...no one knew he loved Lily so much...not even Lily...

lol I was just brainstorming. It's not impossible for him to have done those things. And I agree he is a "gift of a character." I adore him he's one of my most favorite's. The list goes something like this: Draco M., Severus S., Harry P., Hermione G., Albus D...

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

He didnt say to Voldemort "Kill the Boy, Spare Lily"..He didnt make a deal with him...he only tried a hand at begging him to spare at least her..He didnt care for James (N neither wud I have if I was in his position[God Forbid!]_)
n Harry..why wud he?? he is the proof of his loss! Snape wasnt a saint..he was tempted to all the wrong ways but unlike Voldemort he had the ability to feel..he had a heart which cud love and unlike some other death Eaters he had the courage to recognise that and choose his path...


He didn't have that courage. He only did it because of Lily. Lily is where he begins and where he ends. He lives, breaths, and dreams Lily.

Snape's need to  keep Lily alive while sacrificing the people she deeply cares for (I.e. people that make her happy) is not plain love or pure love, it's obsessive love.  I'm not saying he needs to be a pushover and let the person he loves to walk all over him but even if he was not willing to give up things, he shouldn't be taking those that she cares about away from her.  He sees her and only her not the people around here, the people who are her foundation and he doesn't seem to understand that she's going to collapse without that foundation because he is very willing to tear it.

Obsession doesn't necessarily needs to be creepy. As I said earlier, it's an all consuming emotion that takes over ones very being. And obsession doesn't necessarily need to be "revengeful or repulsive" either.

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

He didnt say to Voldemort "Kill the Boy, Spare Lily"..He didnt make a deal with him...he only tried a hand at begging him to spare at least her..He didnt care for James (N neither wud I have if I was in his position[God Forbid!]_)

Whether the deal went through or not, it doesn't change the fact that he tried to make one. It doesn't change the intent or the purpose.  

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

Voldy no longer cud enter Harry's heart bcoz of Harry's good heart full of love and more of these subtle feeling..N how the hell can u say LOVE HAS NOTHONG TO DO WITH IT?!! What gave Dumbledore the strength to do "all he did..u know what"...it was his love for the world)(whatta a crazy guy ...Running behiind the greater good!)
Snape was amazing in Occlumency..n added to that..His will power which stemmed from his love for Lily, there was no way Voldy cud penetrate into his mind and understand that he is being made the fool...


I stand corrected, occlumency is the ability to ward others from entering their minds. Even the most depressed of individuals could do this. Harry is crap at occlumency. It has nothing to do with the heart and everything to do with how desperately one wants to hide whatever it is that they're trying to hide.
Sure if he's doing a patronus then obviously that requires a happy memory but not occlumency. The only happy memory's he has got are probably all with Lily (probably why it's a doe). Maybe the strength to keep going on when things seemed to not be going in the right direction and when he thinks of giving up, his love (or as I like to call it obsession) for Lily helps him to stand and not give up. He could've kept his mind warded just fine without emotional strength, though.

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

all said and done,
We believe what we want to believe...


Very true. Lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that.


Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

N No one is satisfied with their fortune but everyone is satisfied with their intelligence...

Where do you get your quotes. I absoulutely adore them. Is it your own? Can I add it to my personal list of quotes? (yes, I know, it's odd I collect quotes)

*Jane*

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Joined: 25 October 2004

Posts: 479

Posted: 13 December 2007 at 6:00am | IP Logged
Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

Yes indeed..which was what I said b4 that Snape's feeling of personal responsibilty for Lily's death was one of the deciding factors of the Choice he made in Dumbledore's Office that day after Lily's death...But I completely disagree with ur point that Snape protected Harry coz of guilt....


You have two contradictory points here. The only reason why Snape joined Dumbledore was because he wanted to protect Lily and when that was out of the question, his reason became Harry (why else but because he is Lily's kid). No matter how he loathed the very idea of protecting "the brat". Guilt for being responsible for her death and loyalty to the only true friend he's ever had.

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

thats disgracing our Prince! How can u yaar??? Snape was indeed guilty of it..But remember he is more or less as guilty of Lily and Jame's death as Sirius Black is..Sirius was the one who adviced Lily N James to sawp Secret kEEPER to QWormtail..he did it with good heart and for the ebst..But unintentioanlly that lead to Wormtail knowing their location n gibing them away..so isnt he almost as unintentionally reponsible as Snape??! Coz Snape never knew who the Prophecy Concerned..he did it with no good intention but had it concerned Lily in any way..he wudnt have given such an information to Voldemort that has all the prababilities of threatenning Lily's life...(dun tell me if he knew, he wud have even then told Voldy abt it and made a deal...Bcoz Jane herself said once...that one shud contemplete on the imagination of the author but at the same time..not go forwards to make stupid guesses....one of the achievements of HP is that inspite of being a wacko story, it was never silly or stupid)


I'd hardly compare Snape informing (A clever guy like that would have known it would hurt someone) dear Voldie this prophetic message to what Sirius did to protect his friends. Whether he knew of who the prophesy concerned is beside the point. He was doing something for Voldemort, and chances of anything bad happening because of it to someone/anyone/everyone was high. Sirius's advice to James and Lily to switch secret keepers was so he could protect them. He knew that he'll be the likely candidate to be seeked out for secret keeper and he felt it'll be wiser to chose someone who was the least likely. Thus, if he was tortured and he cracked, he wouldn't have the information they want.
A situation where a friend was doing something to safeguard someone and a situation where a servant is going back to loyally give answers to the master without questioning is simply incomparable, IMO.

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

He wasnt Protecting Harry coz of Guilt..His Guilt , shame added to his Love together lead him to make that decisive Choice to protect the son of the woman he loved and thats why he did it...


I agree with you here, that Snapes love (it's still obsession to me) was probably one of the deciding factors to why Snape devoted his life to protecting Harry.




*Jane*

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*Jane*

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Posts: 479

Posted: 13 December 2007 at 6:31am | IP Logged
Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

N U call it wierd..whats WIERD anyway?? He went to Grimmauld Place to search the place to make sure that no clues of the OOTP are left behind...
an while he was searching, he found a letter of Lily's n obviously he tore the letter and took the latter half which had her "LOVE" (It was signed "Love, Lily")Wink whats wierd..he loved her and she never did and now he took sumthing hat had her love..I dun find it out of character at all..It was he least wierd thing he did!LOL


Obsessive much, creepy very much. It's very obsessive. I don't know how you can call this just plain love…

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

as for clutching on to those memories..they wre, allow me to say, kind of a lifeline for this man..he lived after Lily died only to make sure that she didnt die in vain..his love compelled him to do so..he lived for Lily and dwelled on those memories...recall his own words in The Prince's Tale.."I wish I were Dead..."
he didnt live for greed or love of life..but love for memories of a late woman...Wink


Couldn't agree with you more. Lily was this mans life.

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

By killing Snape, she gave us the oppurtunity of Character Study...

Hey I could've very well studied him without the need to have his neck punctured . Cry I don't want him gone.CryCry

Originally posted by luky_lakshmi

Snape wasnt a mean person..his life indeed began with egos, wanting of power..But he had a good heart..he chose the way his heart indicated over what his brain indicated at the time when that decision decided the course and consequence of his life...

Everyone is attracted to power to some extent and whether his rationality was screaming at him to stop going on the path, he wouldn't have listened, because power does corrupt and "absolute power corrupts absolutely" (think Voldy). Lily in a way may have been a grounding fixture for him otherwise he may never have turned. So I guess I agree with a part of what you're saying. He's not a good person, he's not a nice person, a loving person or a caring person. There's only one person who makes up the very thing that is his heart and only this person is the one that can in any way cause him to, even, consider such emotions.

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

Snape was a man who changed from wrong ways...committing wrongs is human, to correct them and to follow the path of redemption, it takes lots of guts..

or foolishness worthy of a Griffindor Wink

Originally posted by lucky_lakshmi

  I cant say I think Snape to be a stronger character than Dumbledore..for I believe that a man who even at the face of hs own death cann smile and manipulate the plot, the man who has to scarifice so much but yet pretend to have no worries..to keep cool at all times and paste a huge and reassuring smile on his face all the time, and at the same time to live with grief at a terrible wrong u did that took a toll of ur sister's life, n led to his Brother's unforgiving hatred...and to redeem the wrong u did..it takes much much more guts...Snape at leas had the relief of showing out his anger and frustration thru his irritating indifference...Wink

Totally agree. Dumbledore's awesome and Snape is one irritable man. LOL

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