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IdeaQueen

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IdeaQueen

Joined: 23 August 2006

Posts: 3152

Posted: 23 September 2007 at 4:24am | IP Logged
Originally posted by SolidSnake

Every citizen of this country has freedom of speech but it is not absolute. Even more so for people in important public seats, Karunanidhi must understand that his being a Chief Minister of TN means that whatever he utters in public shall be taken as state govt's opinion hence he should have been careful in uttering anything on such sensitive matters.

TrueSmile

Karunanidhi (DMK) has always played "dravidian" (read TN) card, they have always tried to create a north-south (so called Aryan-Dravidian) divide, but it seems that this time it has gone terribly wrong. Karunanidhi's sole agenda now seems to be bad-mouth Shri Ram.

DMK party is anti-Hindu party right from its start....they don't mind degrading Hindusim to any extent...the interesting thing was BJP had alliance with it.That itself shows how all these people are mean.No one has respect for their own ideologiesBig smile

People would have had no objection to the Sethu-Samundram project had the govt handled the matter sensibly. But what they did, insulted one of the great icons of Sanatan Dharma.

Ramayana ke liye bhartiyon ke man mein jo maan-sammaan hai woh shabdo mein nahin likh sakte. Not many people would have known that several versions of Ramayana exist in South-East Asia also (in Thailad it is considered as national epic).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramayana

As in many oral epics, multiple versions of the Ramayana survive. In particular, the Ramayana related in North India differs in important respects from that preserved in South India and the rest of South-East Asia. There is an extensive tradition of oral storytelling based on the Ramayana in Thailand, Cambodia, Malaysia, Laos, Vietnam, Indonesia and Maldives.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Just read this... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramayana#Variant_versions


Yes various versions of Ramayana add much more confusion.



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IdeaQueen

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IdeaQueen

Joined: 23 August 2006

Posts: 3152

Posted: 23 September 2007 at 4:36am | IP Logged
There are several similarites between diferent Mythologies...the Mythological characters are similar.....
When we take Illiad...Mahabharata
Kunti devi ....she is similar to Thetis......both have son from Sun GOd...both were unmaaried mothers..both the son's had tragic death..inspite of being great warriors...Karna of Kunti and Achilles of thetis..both died in tragic mannerSmile.....
Take Ulysses...he is Arjuna from Mahabharata....Ulysees was in disguise in penelope's palace as a girl and similarly Arjuna was in disguise like a girl (for 1year)during the exile !!!
Several similarites between these Mythological characters.....
I happend to see an article about the book :

THE HERO WITH A THOUSAND FACES
                       by Joseph Campbell

Some points from it:
Campbell is a mythographer -- he writes about myths. What he
discovered in his study of world myths is that THEY ARE ALL
BASICALLY THE SAME STORY -- retold endlessly in infinite variation.

Every story-teller bends the myth to his own purpose.
That's why THE HERO

                      HAS A THOUSAND FACES

The stages of the HERO are:

1) THE HERO IS INTRODUCED IN HIS ORDINARY WORLD.

Most stories take place in a special world, a world that is new and
alien to its hero. If you're going to tell a story about a fish out
of his customary element, you first have to create a contrast by
showing him in his mundane, ordinary world. In WITNESS you see both
the Amish boy and the policeman in their ordinary worlds before they
are thrust into alien worlds -- the farmboy into the city, and the
city cop into the unfamiliar countryside. In STAR WARS you see Luke
Skywalker bored to death as a farmboy before he takes on the
universe.

2) THE CALL TO ADVENTURE.

The hero is presented with a problem, challenge, or adventure.
Maybe the land is dying, as in the Arthur stories about the search
for the Holy Grail. In STAR WARS again, it's Princess Leia's
holographic message to Obi Wan Kenobi, who asks Luke to join in the
quest. In detective stories, it's the hero accepting a new case.
In romantic comedies it could be the first sight of that special --
but annoying someone the hero or heroine will be pursuing/sparring
with the remainder of the story.

3) THE HERO IS RELUCTANT AT FIRST.

Often at this point, the hero balks at the threshold of adventure.
After all, he or she is facing the greatest of all fears -- fear of
the unknown. At this point Luke refuses Obi Wan's call to adventure,
and returns to his aunt and uncle's farmhouse, only to find they
have been barbqued by the Emperor's stormtroopers. Suddenly Luke is
no longer reluctant, and is eager to undertake the adventure. He is
motivated.

4) THE HERO IS ENCOURAGED BY THE WISE OLD MAN OR WOMAN.

By this time many stories will have introduced a Merlin-like
character who is the hero's mentor. In JAWS it's the crusty Robert
Shaw character who knows all about sharks; in the mythology of the
Mary Tyler Moore Show, it's Lou Grant. The mentor gives advice and
sometimes magical weapons. This is Obi Wan Kenobi giving Luke
Skywalker his father's light sabre.

The mentor can only go so far with the hero. Eventually the hero
must face the unknown by himself. Sometimes the wise old man is
required to give the hero a swift kick in the pants to get the
adventure going.

5) THE HERO PASSES THE FIRST THRESHOLD.

He fully enters the special world of his story for the first time.
This is the moment at which the story takes off and the adventure
gets going. The balloon goes up, the romance begins, the plane or
spaceship blasts off, the wagon train gets rolling. Dorothy sets
out on the Yellow Brick Road. The hero is now committed to his
journey... and there's no turning back.

6) THE HERO ENCOUNTERS TESTS AND HELPERS.

The hero is forced to make allies and enemies in the special world,
and to pass certain tests and challenges that are part of his
training. In STAR WARS, the cantina is the setting for the forging
of an important alliance with Han Solo, and the start of an
important enmity with Jabba The Hut. In CASABLANCA, Rick's Cafe is
the setting for the "alliances and enmities" phase, and in many
westersn it's the saloon where these relationships are established.

The tests and challenges phase is represented in STAR WARS by the
scene of Obi Wan teaching Luke about the Force, as Luke is made to
learn by fighting blindfolded. The early laser battles with the
Imperial Fighters are another test which Luke passes successfully.

7) THE HERO REACHES THE INNERMOST CAVE

The hero comes at last to a dangerous place, often deep underground,
where the object of his quest is hidden. In the Arthurian stories
the Chapel Perilous is the dangerous chamber where the seeker finds
the Grail. In many myths the hero has to descend into hell to
retrieve a loved one, or into a cave to fight a dragon and gain a
treasure. It's Theseus going into the Labyrinth to face the
Minotaur. In STAR WARS it's Luke and company being sucked into the
Death Star where they will rescue Princess Leia. Sometimes it's the
hero entering the headquarters of his nemesis; and sometimes it's
just the hero going into his or her own dream world to confront his
or hers worst fears... and overcome them.

8) THE HERO ENDURES THE SUPREME ORDEAL.

This is the moment at which the hero touches bottom. He faces the
possibility of death, brought to the brink in a fight with a
mythical beast. For us, the audience standing outside the cave
waiting for the victor to emerge, it's a black moment. In STAR
WARS, it's the harrowing moment in the bowels of the Death Star,
where Luke, Leia and company are trapped in the giant trash-masher.
Luke is pulled under by the tentacled monster that lives in the
sewage, and is held down so long the audience begins to wonder if
he's dead. E.T. momentarily appears to die on the operating table.

This is a critical moment in any story, an ordeal in which the hero
appears to die and is born again. It's a major source of the magic
of the hero myth. What happens is that the audience has been led to
identify with the hero. We are encouraged to experience the
brink-of- -death feeling with the hero. We are temporarily
depressed, and then we are revived by the hero's return from death.

This is the magic of any well-designed amusement park thrill ride.
Space Mountain or The Great White Knuckler make the passengers feel
like they're going to die, and there's a great thrill that comes
from surviving a moment like that. This is also the trick of rites
of passage and rites of initiation into fraternities and secret
societies. The initiate is forced to taste death and experience
resurrection. You're never more alive than when you think you're
going to die.

9) THE HERO SIEZES THE SWORD.

Having survived death, beaten the dragon, slain the Minotaur, the
hero now takes possession of the treasure he's come seeking.
Sometimes it's a special weapon like a magic sword, or it may be a
token like the Grail or some elixer which can heal the wounded land.

Sometimes the "sword" is knowledge and experience that leads to
greater understanding and a reconciliation with hostile forces.

The hero may settle a conflict with his father or with his shadowy
nemesis. In RETURN OF THE JEDI, Luke is reconciled with both, as he
discovers that the dying Darth Vader is his father, and not such a
bad guy after all.

The hero may also be reconciled with a woman. Often she is the
treasure he's come to win or rescue, and there is often a love scene
or sacred marriage at this point. Women in these stories (or men if
the hero is female) tend to be SHAPE-SHIFTERS. They appear to
change in form or age, reflecting the confusing and constantly
changing aspects of the opposite sex as seen from the hero's point
of view. The hero's supreme ordeal may grant him a better
understanding of women, leading to a reconciliation with the
opposite sex.

10) THE ROAD BACK.

The hero's not out of the woods yet. Some of the best chase scenes
come at this point, as the hero is pursued by the vengeful forces
from whom he has stolen the elixir or the treasure. This is the
chase as Luke and friends escape from the Death Star, with Princess
Leia and the plans that will bring down Darth Vader.

If the hero has not yet managed to reconcile with his father or the
gods, they may come raging after him at this point. This is the
moonlight bicycle flight of Elliott and E.T. as they escape from
"Keys" (Peter Coyote), a force representing governmental authority.
By the end of the movie, Keys and Elliott have been reconciled, and
it even looks like Keys will end up as Elliott's father. (The script
not the final cut, guys).

11) RESURRECTION.

The hero emerges from the special world, transformed by his
experience. There is often a replay here of the mock
death-and-rebirth of stage 8, as the hero once again faces death and
survives. Each ordeal wins him new command over the Force. He is
transformed into a new being by his experience.

12) RETURN WITH THE ELIXIR.

The hero comes back to his ordinary world, but his adventure would
be meaningless unless he brought back the elixir, treasure, or some
lesson from the special world. Sometimes it's just knowledge or
experience, but unless he comes back with the exlixir or some boon
to mankind, he's doomed to repeat the adventure until he does. Many
comedies use this ending, as a foolish character refuses to learn
his lesson and embarks on the same folly that got him in trouble in
the first place.

Sometimes the boon is treasure won on the quest, or love, or just
the knowledge that the special world exists and can be survived.
Sometimes it's just coming home with a good story to tell.

----------------------------------------------------

http://www.skepticfiles.org/atheist2/hero.htm

IdeaQueen

IF-Dazzler

IdeaQueen

Joined: 23 August 2006

Posts: 3152

Posted: 23 September 2007 at 4:39am | IP Logged
Another interesting article:

Thus it was or wasn't

Bibek Debroy

Posted online: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 at 0000 hrs Print Email

Remarkable how in analysing texts like Ramayana proponents of reason can be dogmatic


 The Ramayana and the Mahabharata are collectively known as itihasa. The three Sanskrit words iti, ha, asa translate as 'thus indeed it was'. They are therefore that which would be regarded as history and in our tradition, the two epics and

Puranas are known as the fifth Veda. But there are several questions to which answers can't be clear-cut. First, how much of what is described is based on a historical core? Second, what is the gap between the historical incident and composition? This second question becomes complicated because of interpolations and multiple authors, more in Mahabharata than in Ramayana. Third, where did these incidents occur?

Dogma and blind belief are associated with religion. Science (interpreted broadly) is about reason. So runs the perception. Dogma means ideas or opinions, as opposed to facts. Given the distinction, it is remarkable how dogmatic proponents of reason tend to be. How is any proposition proved? One can try theory, in which case, assumptions (or axioms) can't be proved. Two parallel lines never meeting (or meeting at infinity) is an example. That is not invariably true and is an axiom, only valid on a plane. Once that was questioned, non-Euclidean geometry evolved. Alternatively, one can try empiricism, in which case, one can never prove a proposition. At best, one can disprove or falsify it. Proof is also subject to human knowledge and standards of measurement available then. Had that not been the case, today's 'scientific truth' wouldn't have been falsified tomorrow. Views on the centre of the universe are instances, as are several hoaxes. Let's not forget the Piltdown Man, which the scientific community believed in for forty years. The certainty associated with Newtonian classical physics has led to reduced arrogance of science and acceptance of uncertainty.

Take Archbishop James Ussher's (1581-1656) proposition that the world was created on October 23, 4004 BCE. This can never be falsified. If evidence prior to 4004 BCE is cited, one has to reckon with the Ussher retort. Surely, God could have created this evidence to test our faith. There is no satisfactory response to that. As a believer in the scientific approach, I ought to say it is possible the world was created in 4004 BCE, but it is improbable. Ditto for the proposition, "The Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) doesn't exist." Since mass hallucinations do occur, this is possible, but improbable. With its existence thus questioned, ASI's certainty and arrogance (of knowledge) are remarkable. Myths are not necessarily false, the negative association with myths occurred because one didn't understand other cultures. Several myths have a core in historical events, but because of distortions and exaggerations, it becomes difficult to distil out the core. Before Schliemann, we would have assumed the Trojan War (and Troy) had no basis in reality. Whether it is Iliad or King Arthur, the right question is not whether there was historical basis, but how much?

Reading Mahabharata and Ramayana as they have come down to us, Mahabharata seems more real. Take the description of Kripi (Kripacharya's sister, Droncharya's wife and Ashvatthama's mother). We are told she had thin hair and teeth that jutted out. This is so irrelevant to the main story that it seems as if the author was describing a real person. But this could also be because Mahabharata is a more disparate collection by several authors, knit together. Barring Uttara Kanda (and perhaps a little bit of Bala Kanda), Valmiki

Ramayana is more of a unified whole. It is also shorter with 24,000 shlokas, than Mahabharata's 74,000 (excluding Harivamsha) and has relatively more of poetry.

The compositions suggest Mahabharata was completed before Ramayana, in their final forms. There is greater geographical knowledge in Ramayana, Mahabharata's terrain is limited. The core dispute (much before Kurukshetra War) in Mahabharata was over cattle, the Ramayana's dispute was over land. Ramayana hints at a more settled and urban civilisation (descriptions of Ayodhya and Lanka). War descriptions (fighting with trees, drinking Duhshasana's blood) are less crude in Ramayana. Notwithstanding a reference to Ramayana in Mahabharata and no references the other way round, Mahabharata was probably composed before Ramayana and both probably attained their final forms by the 4th century BCE.

This leaves the more difficult and controversial question of when the core incidents happened. In the ten-avatar version, Rama is Vishnu's 7th avatar, Krishna is 8th.

Ramayana happened in treta yuga, Mahabharata in dvapar yuga. There is no reason to disbelieve this traditional chronological sequence.

Astronomical attempts (from references within the text) to date the Kurukshetra War lead to a range of contradictory dates between 1400 BCE and 5500 BCE. Spliced with external archaeological evidence and there is no denying this is stronger for Mahabharata than

Ramayana a date around 1000 BCE seems plausible and ties in even with the hypothesis that the original war (on which the subsequent story was based) was the one between King Sudas and the ten kings, mentioned in the Rig Veda.

Life becomes more difficult when we come to Ramayana.

Astronomical dating now leads to a range between 5000 BCE and 7000 BCE for Rama's birth. Logically, if the core Ramayana incident occurred before the core Mahabharata incident, it will be more difficult to obtain external evidence, because we are in the relatively more distant past. And we may also be looking in the wrong place, geographically speaking.

Incidentally, several names from Ramayana occur in Vedic texts, though not the core story. And there exists a Sugriva cave near Hampi in an area topographically similar to Sundara Kanda descriptions, not to speak of a former director of the Geological Survey of India (thus a scientist) having expressed the view that Rama's Setu can't be a natural formation.

Whatever be the truth, and we may never know, we are also talking about people's beliefs and this is often much more important than actual truth. Knowledge brings humility and a capacity to say 'I don't know'. One becomes less categorical and less confident about true and false. This is true of the Indian tradition and also the scientific approach.

ASI's views should have been much more muted. Instead of a categorical assertion that Ram Setu is natural, one could have said it is unlikely it was man-made. And there certainly was no call to get into historicity of Rama and Ramayana. We would then have weighed net welfare gains from the Sethusamudram project. Instead, we had an unnecessary controversy and thankfully, the government has now withdrawn the original affidavit, with a reference to the Himalayas thrown in. Is this the sub-conscious at work? Valmiki was told that as long as the Himalayas and the great rivers existed, his work would be read.

The writer is a noted economist
http://www.indianexpress.com/story/217889._.html

mermaid_QT

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mermaid_QT

Joined: 25 September 2005

Posts: 11613

Posted: 23 September 2007 at 6:51am | IP Logged
Originally posted by TallyHo

Karunanidhi needs to go to an old age home!


ROFLROFLROFL  ashu

sohn

Senior Member

sohn

Joined: 14 June 2007

Posts: 511

Posted: 23 September 2007 at 2:23pm | IP Logged
For me....who started this Shri Ram issue and who spoke about him, be it good or bad, does he exist on paper or in the hearts or somewhere in the past...is not the main issue. The question is Why are there so many questions reg all this? It hurts..to see that these sleazy politicians can get away with just taking shots at any given religion, faith, caste and belief, to get some money or votes. They've just figured out that this is one amazing and the only thing that works in India now. Take that shot, and anyone can do it and we will soon see a divide in the reactions from the public and soon the political parties will be tearing each other apart. The more votes they need, the more they will stoop down to create a ruckus in daily lives of the people. What hurts even more is that it works every bloody time.

Even if I just start to think of the big issues that have come up just last one year, I realise that most of them had to do with either of these listed above! Why dont people see it? But then again, most of the people do tend to shut off when anything is hurled against their family, religion, faith, community or belief. And now unfortunately, most of them have started believing that if they shut up, they just keep getting more hurt cus the hurling doesn't stop and if they fight, well..there is a havoc.

Call me a dreamer, but I was trying to imagine a day where, some politicians are sitting tight in their chair and just blabbering their throats out about anything to do with religion and our people dont give two hoots about what they say! Would they then, even bother doing that again? Would they realise that we dont care what they do cus we see the motives? I dont know if this would ever happen, but I would love to live for that day hoping it arrives soon.

Im sorry if I've hurt anyone by saying anything reg this,it wasn't my intention and will never be, well it was just inside me, had to speak out.

Edited by sohn - 23 September 2007 at 2:27pm

mermaid_QT

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mermaid_QT

Joined: 25 September 2005

Posts: 11613

Posted: 23 September 2007 at 11:09pm | IP Logged
since no one else is willing to leave reigion and politics seggregated, we should not be expected to do the same either. it is abt time people like KN learnt to accept it. they will only anger masses therwise and hamper the progress of our country furthermore.

@ mythili-
thanks for the articles!



Edited by mermaid_QT - 23 September 2007 at 11:09pm

Vinzy

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Vinzy

Joined: 03 December 2005

Posts: 26778

Posted: 23 September 2007 at 11:21pm | IP Logged
About Ram sethu........Govt itself make it a big issue....Beach samadar main ram sethu cross karke koi ship gaya tho kuch be nahe hotaa.....kitne finishing boat crossing the ram sethu....so ek 50 or 100mtr scour kiya tho nothing bad in it,its good for indian Economy n Development....but if any religion believe there ram sethu...dont try to hurt their believes...Political parties n leaders should control their hurting comments... Embarrassed

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