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Culture Vs Values (Page 3)

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chatbuster

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Posted: 08 May 2007 at 11:00am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Gauri_3

Originally posted by chatbuster

two problems here. first, this does not take into account the huge differences between different cultures and compares people only within a particular culture.

That's why I initially selected values over culture.  Cultures change across the globe but good values and virtues are pretty much similar across all cultures.  Similar culture could be interpreted differently by people who are born in it.  For example, muslims with high moral values perceive Islam as peace loving religion where as fanatics (we all know where their values are coming from) follow the implied teachings, that they have blown out of perspective any ways, and go on terrorist rampage.  This can be hold true for each and every religion.

So, within the similar culture, you can have many different kind of people based on values.  On the contrary, you can find similar people from different cultures based on the set of values they are exhibiting.  It works both ways imo and we can't ignore the differntiations brought  by the values.

second, even within a culture, most of the so-called values that you speak of do stem from circumstances relating to one's birth, for the most part. the rest that we seemingly imbibe are abstract notions- we really dont know, do we, unless we are tested? in other words, there's not a whole lot to hang the hat on unless it is family values/ religion/ culture relating to one's birth.

Values do not stem from the circumstances of birth.  I believe values are taught...it's an adapted trait...not inherited.  It also depends on the person...he might be taught good values from parents who are role models but later in the life, he might choose to disregard good values and adapt bad ones.  Values are adapted while culture is inherited.  Both change overtime as the child grows up and is exposed to the outside world. 

It's kind of like traditional values displayed by most desis while adapting a modern culture (combination of desi and american) because of their surroundings.  Even culture changes overtime when a person migrates to a new place.  So, you can't say that people follow the culture relating to their birth through out their life.

the way i am reading the debate is values/ culture that one imbibes because of birth circumstances versus those that one imbibes thru other life experiences. in that sense, the birth stuff still rules higher in my estimation. it forms the bed-rock around which there are individual fluctuations.

again, if u look at a slum-dweller, most of them on average have similar values. if u look at the other end of the spectrum,  the very rich would also have similar values, relating mainly to the circumstances of their birth. between the two groups, there'll often be glaring differences- they are in different value oribits. within each group, yes there are variations, sometimes even sharp, but most of the differences between the two groups would still be explained by birth circumstances.

in other words, if u tried to look for factors to explain value differences between people, most significance would be found imo on birth factors. the rest of the differences might even appear random and accordingly nothing that we could generalize from. Smile

anyway, good to see that we've distanced ourselves from other values as being more significantWinkLOL

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lighthouse

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Posted: 08 May 2007 at 11:32am | IP Logged
Originally posted by chatbuster

the way i am reading the debate is values/ culture that one imbibes because of birth circumstances versus those that one imbibes thru other life experiences. in that sense, the birth stuff still rules higher in my estimation. it forms the bed-rock around which there are individual fluctuations.

again, if u look at a slum-dweller, most of them on average have similar values. if u look at the other end of the spectrum,  the very rich would also have similar values, relating mainly to the circumstances of their birth. between the two groups, there'll often be glaring differences- they are in different value oribits. within each group, yes there are variations, sometimes even sharp, but most of the differences between the two groups would still be explained by birth circumstances.

in other words, if u tried to look for factors to explain value differences between people, most significance would be found imo on birth factors. the rest of the differences might even appear random and accordingly nothing that we could generalize from. Smile

anyway, good to see that we've distanced ourselves from other values as being more significantWinkLOL

 CB .. I really liked what you said there esp the bold part.. But don't you think education plays a huge part too? Hence the slum dwellers and the rich are the way they are .. The reason I say that is because middle class is very different when it comes to values in that educated and non educated middle class tend not to have similar values.Imo

 Great points @ Guari too...



Edited by lighthouse - 08 May 2007 at 11:33am

mermaid_QT

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Posted: 08 May 2007 at 11:49am | IP Logged
I completely disagree CB.
That you and I and people here were born in families that we could be proud of and that our roots have given us the values we cherish and live by, doesn;t mean all have a similar opportunity. We had a rare PRIVILEDGE. Smile

What if you were a GIRL MARRIED OFF WITH DOWRY and NO EDUCATION getting beaten up by her husband? Would you still say family, culture and all the BS is more important than values?
Lot of the times, what birth teaches you is sexual apartheid and abuse. fwiwLOL, and IMHO, some families and cultures who take pride in "humareme betee ke sasuraal me panee bhi nahee peete" "ab haath utthaayaa to kya hua?  aadmee hai, garam dimag hai, haath utthh jaataa hai"  seriously need to EVOLVE as human beings.  so if one is born in such, look around you and notice the barbarism you are born in, nuke it and learn values that other ones families have taught them. Dump that culture and move on to imbibe better rules of living that let others live happily too.
I'd pick values over CERTAIN FAMILY-TEACHINGS any day
Wink.  Again, it s easy for us to cherish our traditions and families becasue we are not the barbaric kinds.  All are not that lucky.  Some parents still sell their daughters for whatever helpless reasons they may have. 

Edited by mermaid_QT - 08 May 2007 at 12:10pm

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chatbuster

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Posted: 08 May 2007 at 2:37pm | IP Logged

Originally posted by mermaid_QT

I completely disagree CB.
That you and I and people here were born in families that we could be proud of and that our roots have given us the values we cherish and live by, doesn;t mean all have a similar opportunity. We had a rare PRIVILEDGE. Smile

What if you were a GIRL MARRIED OFF WITH DOWRY and NO EDUCATION getting beaten up by her husband? Would you still say family, culture and all the BS is more important than values?
Lot of the times, what birth teaches you is sexual apartheid and abuse. fwiwLOL, and IMHO, some families and cultures who take pride in "humareme betee ke sasuraal me panee bhi nahee peete" "ab haath utthaayaa to kya hua?  aadmee hai, garam dimag hai, haath utthh jaataa hai"  seriously need to EVOLVE as human beings.  so if one is born in such, look around you and notice the barbarism you are born in, nuke it and learn values that other ones families have taught them. Dump that culture and move on to imbibe better rules of living that let others live happily too.
I'd pick values over CERTAIN FAMILY-TEACHINGS any day
Wink.  Again, it s easy for us to cherish our traditions and families becasue we are not the barbaric kinds.  All are not that lucky.  Some parents still sell their daughters for whatever helpless reasons they may have. 

haha, we are not debating superiority of family culture/ values over the other values one imbibes over a lifetime. i am just stating my opinion on how it is- that birth circumstances play the more dominant role. whether those values are good or bad is a separate question.Smile

so based on what u wrote, i dont see what u disagree withWink

chatbuster

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chatbuster

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Posted: 08 May 2007 at 2:50pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by Gauri_3

Originally posted by chatbuster

the way i am reading the debate is values/ culture that one imbibes because of birth circumstances versus those that one imbibes thru other life experiences. in that sense, the birth stuff still rules higher in my estimation. it forms the bed-rock around which there are individual fluctuations.

again, if u look at a slum-dweller, most of them on average have similar values. if u look at the other end of the spectrum,  the very rich would also have similar values, relating mainly to the circumstances of their birth. between the two groups, there'll often be glaring differences- they are in different value oribits. within each group, yes there are variations, sometimes even sharp, but most of the differences between the two groups would still be explained by birth circumstances.

in other words, if u tried to look for factors to explain value differences between people, most significance would be found imo on birth factors. the rest of the differences might even appear random and accordingly nothing that we could generalize from. Smile

anyway, good to see that we've distanced ourselves from other values as being more significantWinkLOL

...and that's why we see caste system so deeply rooted in Indian psyche.  Look at western world and you'll see some of your colleagues who grew up in ghettos but made it thru college...because they learned the value of good education and how it can improve their life along with other good values that help a person succeed in life vs. a person who was born and brought up in a ghetto and remained in that ghetto for the rest of his life.

Values are not inherited...they are learned.

i think it gets to be a pretty silly debate if we lump everything into values, right from birth. the more interesting question at least for me is how much of our values are shaped by circumstances relating to our birth and how much are formed by life experiences later on.

again, if u look at a guy who grew up in a family where they love to spit paan all over the place, odds are u'll get the same values in the kid even as an adult.Wink

u'll also notice that two people, when faced with identical circumstances, two kids who have gone to the same school and have had the same teachers, develop very different responses and capabilities. somewhere, their upbringing at home has to be key. even the decision to send the kid to a good school and gain additional values relates to family circumstances and priority.

by and large, the greater differences in values between people can then be explained by religious/ family factors. the other stuff is pretty random. that's not to say those differences are not there, but it's hard to pin down on any specific experience since in any case everyone has different responses to similar experiences anyway.

culture is core to us; the other values we imbibe later on are the external trappings that keep changing over time, based on the latest gyrations in our experiences.

chatbuster

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chatbuster

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Posted: 08 May 2007 at 2:55pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by lighthouse

Originally posted by chatbuster

the way i am reading the debate is values/ culture that one imbibes because of birth circumstances versus those that one imbibes thru other life experiences. in that sense, the birth stuff still rules higher in my estimation. it forms the bed-rock around which there are individual fluctuations.

again, if u look at a slum-dweller, most of them on average have similar values. if u look at the other end of the spectrum,  the very rich would also have similar values, relating mainly to the circumstances of their birth. between the two groups, there'll often be glaring differences- they are in different value oribits. within each group, yes there are variations, sometimes even sharp, but most of the differences between the two groups would still be explained by birth circumstances.

in other words, if u tried to look for factors to explain value differences between people, most significance would be found imo on birth factors. the rest of the differences might even appear random and accordingly nothing that we could generalize from. Smile

anyway, good to see that we've distanced ourselves from other values as being more significantWinkLOL

 CB .. I really liked what you said there esp the bold part.. But don't you think education plays a huge part too? Hence the slum dwellers and the rich are the way they are .. The reason I say that is because middle class is very different when it comes to values in that educated and non educated middle class tend not to have similar values.Imo

 Great points @ Guari too...

thanks. appreciate it.

i think education plays an important role at least in terms of expanding our minds and our horizons. but the deep-rooted almost-instinctive responses that one develops for events where no amount of education can help revolves around those personality traits that one forms during childhood. show me a kid and i'll tell u how capable they will likely be to take failure in stride, to be competitive, to be a life-long learner etc... Very hard for even education to change the value structure we form very early on, to learn those traits...

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