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souro

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souro

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Posted: 21 March 2007 at 11:48pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by sunp

LOL
Originally posted by chatbuster

Originally posted by sunp

yippee a old friend is back!!! but really do we hand over the keys to lockers to him?

oh and yeah Sachin and Sourav are so done from being the captains of the team, they are the past, this is their last world cup, let them contribute, if possible, can we get behind the man who leads us and look forward Wink , next thing we hear we want Kapil Paji back, as Captain, he won us the last world cup Wink

if track record is anything to go by, then if india'll do well, it'll be inspite of dravid. not because of himWink 

Ah Track History, you should really have checked the stats before saying thatWink, you are catching habits from someoneLOL

                        Mat  Runs  HS   BatAv 100  50   W    BB  BowlAv 5w  Ct St

1999         &a mp;a mp;n bsp;        8   461 145   65.85   2   3   -   -       -    -   2  0
                             7   379 183   54.14   1   1   6  3/27   32.50  0   0  0


2003         &a mp;a mp;n bsp;       11   318  62   63.60   0   2   -   -       -    -  15  1
                            11   465 112*  58.12   3   0   3  3/22   29.33  0   1  0

Total         & amp; amp; nbsp;   21   800 145   61.53   2   5   -   -       -    -  17  1
                      20   999 183   58.76   4   3   9  3/22   31.44  0   1  0

Black is Dravid/ Red is Sourav

Against Bangladesh, Bermuda, Kenya, Namibia, Netherlands

Sourav is 395/999 , against 133/800 by Dravid

against rest

Sourav is 604/999, and Dravid is 667/800

Sourav comes up big against minnows and small against major players, Dravid is opposite

http://stats.cricinfo.com/guru?sdb=compare;playerid=2281;cla ss=odiplayer;filter=basic;team=0;opposition=0;notopposition= 0;season=0;homeaway=0;continent=0;country=0;notcountry=0;gro undid=0;startdefault=1996-04-03;start=1996-04-03;enddefault= 2007-03-19;end=2007-03-19;tourneyid=2;finals=0;daynight=0;to ss=0;scheduledovers=0;scheduleddays=0;innings=0;result=0;fol lowon=0;seriesresult=0;captain=0;keeper=0;dnp=0;recent=;runs low=;runshigh=;batposition=0;dismissal=0;bowposition=0;balls low=;ballshigh=;bpof=0;overslow=;overshigh=;conclow=;conchig h=;wicketslow=;wicketshigh=;dismissalslow=;dismissalshigh=;c aughtlow=;caughthigh=;caughttype=0;stumpedlow=;stumpedhigh=; viewtype=com_compare;csearch=Sourav%20Ganguly;cplayerid=2024 ;comparetype=aro_summary;compare=1;.cgifields=cplayerid;.cgi fields=comparetype

 

Let us not even talk about Sachin, just thing 2003

Sometimes I am so tempted to assume a signature

Get your facts first, then twist them to your likingWink

but someone took that earlierLOL

I like all three of them (Ganguly, Dravid & Tendulkar). I don't know what exactly you wanted to convey with the stats but how does it hurt to be the most successful batsman against the minnows, you still need to win the match and you need someone to score the runs. If Dravid and Tendulkar could have done that maybe it wouldn't have costed us the match against Bangladesh. Moreover Ganguly has scored more runs in less innings and about the average that's there you did not give the no. of times Dravid remained Not Out.



Edited by souro - 21 March 2007 at 11:49pm

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chatbuster

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Posted: 22 March 2007 at 12:27am | IP Logged
Originally posted by souro

I like all three of them (Ganguly, Dravid & Tendulkar). I don't know what exactly you wanted to convey with the stats but how does it hurt to be the most successful batsman against the minnows, you still need to win the match and you need someone to score the runs. If Dravid and Tendulkar could have done that maybe it wouldn't have costed us the match against Bangladesh. Moreover Ganguly has scored more runs in less innings and about the average that's there you did not give the no. of times Dravid remained Not Out.

but wat has master blaster done for us lately? like in the last 5 years? or is that 10 years now?LOL

master blasterLOL. all we have are the bowlers blasting his wicketsLOL



Edited by chatbuster - 22 March 2007 at 12:32am

souro

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souro

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Posts: 13718

Posted: 22 March 2007 at 1:30am | IP Logged
Originally posted by chatbuster

Originally posted by souro

I like all three of them (Ganguly, Dravid & Tendulkar). I don't know what exactly you wanted to convey with the stats but how does it hurt to be the most successful batsman against the minnows, you still need to win the match and you need someone to score the runs. If Dravid and Tendulkar could have done that maybe it wouldn't have costed us the match against Bangladesh. Moreover Ganguly has scored more runs in less innings and about the average that's there you did not give the no. of times Dravid remained Not Out.

but wat has master blaster done for us lately? like in the last 5 years? or is that 10 years now?LOL

master blasterLOL. all we have are the bowlers blasting his wicketsLOL

I also wonder about it sometimes, especially when he was persisted with even after repeated failures in recent times. If Ganguly or Sehwag can be dropped and even Dravid was dropped early in his career, then why is Tendulkar treated as an exception. I don't question his ability as such but when he's not in form then why unnecessarily turn the team into a ten man unit.

And talking about minnows, it's better to score runs against second rung bowlers than repeatedly get out to a second rung bowler like Abdur Razzaq.Wink



Edited by souro - 22 March 2007 at 1:33am

kabhi_21

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Posted: 22 March 2007 at 3:24am | IP Logged
I believe that Rahul is a better player and Ganguly is the better captain Big smile

Anyways I am so happy because of huge win of Srilanka over Bangladesh yesterday.... It gave a great scope to India.... because even if India wins with lower margins by making score above 275..... it has more than 85% chances of advancing to the Super 8 based on runrate..... then only miracles can get Bangladesh the run rate as much as India Big smile

chatbuster

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Posted: 22 March 2007 at 7:49am | IP Logged
Originally posted by sunp

Originally posted by chatbuster

Originally posted by souro

I like all three of them (Ganguly, Dravid & Tendulkar). I don't know what exactly you wanted to convey with the stats but how does it hurt to be the most successful batsman against the minnows, you still need to win the match and you need someone to score the runs. If Dravid and Tendulkar could have done that maybe it wouldn't have costed us the match against Bangladesh. Moreover Ganguly has scored more runs in less innings and about the average that's there you did not give the no. of times Dravid remained Not Out.

but wat has master blaster done for us lately? like in the last 5 years? or is that 10 years now?LOL

master blasterLOL. all we have are the bowlers blasting his wicketsLOL

is it that "what have you done for me lately" syndrome?

forget 2003 worldcup when Sachin Carried us thru to the final and one match he did not score, we lost the WCLOL, it is a oh sachin is out and we have Mcgrath to face, let us commit harakiri, Dada ka to sawal hi nahi, he tells them to warm up the tea, and by the time it is warmed up, he is backLOL

Leading by example, isnt that one of the qualities of leadershipLOL

yaar, it's been obvious even to the dummy commentators over the years that sachin has hardly played a match-winning innings. while others have. so india wins inspite of him. might as well not carry his baggage aroundWink

as for leadership traits, sorry you dont get it.Wink those have to include finding good personnel, training them, motivating them, creating a winning combination etc. Ganguly brought up sehwag, laxman, yuvraj, kaif, harbhajan, dhoni etc. He also got the team to shake off all its losing ways. dravid? gone back to old losing habits.Wink Tendulkar? couldn't handle the pressure.LOL



Edited by chatbuster - 22 March 2007 at 8:39am

chatbuster

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chatbuster

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Posted: 22 March 2007 at 8:29am | IP Logged
Originally posted by sunp

Originally posted by chatbuster

Originally posted by sunp

LOL
Originally posted by chatbuster

Originally posted by sunp

yippee a old friend is back!!! but really do we hand over the keys to lockers to him?

oh and yeah Sachin and Sourav are so done from being the captains of the team, they are the past, this is their last world cup, let them contribute, if possible, can we get behind the man who leads us and look forward Wink , next thing we hear we want Kapil Paji back, as Captain, he won us the last world cup Wink

if track record is anything to go by, then if india'll do well, it'll be inspite of dravid. not because of himWink 

Ah Track History, you should really have checked the stats before saying thatWink, you are catching habits from someoneLOL

                        Mat  Runs  HS   BatAv 100  50   W    BB  BowlAv 5w  Ct St

1999         &a mp;a mp;a mp;a mp;a mp;a mp;a mp;n bsp;        8   461 145   65.85   2   3   -   -       -    -   2  0
                             7   379 183   54.14   1   1   6  3/27   32.50  0   0  0


2003         &a mp;a mp;a mp;a mp;a mp;a mp;a mp;n bsp;       11   318  62   63.60   0   2   -   -       -    -  15  1
                            11   465 112*  58.12   3   0   3  3/22   29.33  0   1  0

Total         & amp; amp; amp; amp; amp; amp; amp; nbsp;   21   800 145   61.53   2   5   -   -       -    -  17  1
                      20   999 183   58.76   4   3   9  3/22   31.44  0   1  0

Black is Dravid/ Red is Sourav

Against Bangladesh, Bermuda, Kenya, Namibia, Netherlands

Sourav is 395/999 , against 133/800 by Dravid

against rest

Sourav is 604/999, and Dravid is 667/800

Sourav comes up big against minnows and small against major players, Dravid is opposite

http://stats.cricinfo.com/guru?sdb=compare;playerid=2281;cla ss=odiplayer;filter=basic;team=0;opposition=0;notopposition= 0;season=0;homeaway=0;continent=0;country=0;notcountry=0;gro undid=0;startdefault=1996-04-03;start=1996-04-03;enddefault= 2007-03-19;end=2007-03-19;tourneyid=2;finals=0;daynight=0;to ss=0;scheduledovers=0;scheduleddays=0;innings=0;result=0;fol lowon=0;seriesresult=0;captain=0;keeper=0;dnp=0;recent=;runs low=;runshigh=;batposition=0;dismissal=0;bowposition=0;balls low=;ballshigh=;bpof=0;overslow=;overshigh=;conclow=;conchig h=;wicketslow=;wicketshigh=;dismissalslow=;dismissalshigh=;c aughtlow=;caughthigh=;caughttype=0;stumpedlow=;stumpedhigh=; viewtype=com_compare;csearch=Sourav%20Ganguly;cplayerid=2024 ;comparetype=aro_summary;compare=1;.cgifields=cplayerid;.cgi fields=comparetype

 

Let us not even talk about Sachin, just thing 2003

Sometimes I am so tempted to assume a signature

Get your facts first, then twist them to your likingWink

but someone took that earlierLOL

haha, you went to all that extentLOL

well, while you are at it, how about getting strike rate as well?

Player       Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0
SR Tendulkar 1992-2007 35 34 4 1796 152 59.86 2033 88.34 4 13 1
SC Ganguly   1999-2007 20 20 3 999 183 58.76 1275 78.35 4 3 1
R Dravid     1999-2007 21 20 7 800 145 61.53 1065 75.11 2 5 0

so many games that rahul dravid lost for us because he stayed at the crease too long collecting his runs, the same runs that you dug upWink. incidentally, there's not much inference to be drawn from the minor statistical differences you came up with. too much volatility in the individual numbers, thereby raising the standard error. Wink 

If you think a little, Sourav's play goes down when playing against quality bowling a trait of a better batsman, Even now this world cup, Sachin and Dravid are off their form, but look at Sourav, he takes too many balls, both the matches have been against weaker opponents

Understanding how they play helps

Sourav plays slow in the begining, picks up his strike rate as the inning goes, but this is mostly against non-quality bowling

Dravid plays slow in the begining, picks up his strike rate, generally at the end of the innings he has pretty good strike rate, but this is against everyone, more against quality bowling

Sachin maintains his strike rate all throughout, doesnt matter whether it is quality or non-quality bowling, his SR is better than the other two and over a bigger span of time, proves he is a far better batsman, intelligent batsman

Contrast that with Sachin of WC 2003, performances you remember Pakistan Match

also, on the qualitative level, dravid was just a more selfish player whereas saurav was playing for the team.Wink because of dravid, others had to step up the strike rate, often getting out sooner than they would have otherwise.WinkWink so one shld try to go beyond those superficial numbers you came up with.Wink

also, from the looks of it, we'd be better off today if we could simply learn to play well against the minnows. remember bangladesh the minnow?Wink

Again if you go by solitary matches to make your claims, you will always get skewed results, heck you will even find Agarkar/Zaheer to be a better batsman, but it is ONE match, if you look at their body of work, you can seperate milk from waterWink

if we should sack anyone, it should be dravid. cant even score against the minnows and has taken the team down with him.

contradicting the reality based upon some idiosyncracies, come on man, I thought tou did not posses that qualityLOL

requires some chutzpah to say after the banglades match that the middle order did not score. well, for sure he did not score. he shld stop passing the buck downWink

One match, kool itLOL, calliing for some rational thinking, calling for some rational thinking!!!!

What I gave you were stats based upon quality innings,  that is not some bloated number like career stats

while we are in the number crunching mode, how about getting some stats for tendulkar in the early years of his career?Wink talking of bloats, that must be his his stats from those early years coz he sure has been under-performing for years nowWink We cant be resting on past laurels nowWink

Good players show up when the going gets tough like the opponent is mighty

haha, for dravid's team, one cannot easily tell which is the mighty opponent and which is not. we've been losing to all and sundry after he became captain Wink

First time India loses to Bangladesh and you show it as extrapolation of  last 5 years, that is just over the top

naheen re. You had dravid's 7 mighty runs in only 2 balls to start the exterpolation trend.Wink and even in that game, could ganguly be sure that dravid's team would not be out for another paltry score? he had to stay at the crease. after he built up the innings, others were able to have a go at it.Wink Good player, this gangulyBig smile

 



Edited by chatbuster - 22 March 2007 at 8:32am

chatbuster

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chatbuster

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Posted: 22 March 2007 at 8:38am | IP Logged

Originally posted by kabhi_21

I believe that Rahul is a better player and Ganguly is the better captain Big smile

doesn't seem like that for one-dayers.Smile

Anyways I am so happy because of huge win of Srilanka over Bangladesh yesterday.... It gave a great scope to India.... because even if India wins with lower margins by making score above 275..... it has more than 85% chances of advancing to the Super 8 based on runrate..... then only miracles can get Bangladesh the run rate as much as India Big smile

as for captaincy aspects, i think it's more important for the guy to be able to motivate 10 other players than play for selfish stats on a personal level. we dont necessarily want our CEOs to be a software techie. nor do we want our PMs to have all those chaprasi skills themselvesWink. They should be great leaders, period. whether that leadership comes from personal example or motivational skills, results show up ultimately. and we had those results with ganguly.

btw, i am no fan of ganguly. but after dravid, i think i'd be a fan of anyoneLOL

chatbuster

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Posted: 22 March 2007 at 9:14am | IP Logged
Originally posted by sunp

Originally posted by chatbuster

Originally posted by sunp

Originally posted by chatbuster

Originally posted by souro

I like all three of them (Ganguly, Dravid & Tendulkar). I don't know what exactly you wanted to convey with the stats but how does it hurt to be the most successful batsman against the minnows, you still need to win the match and you need someone to score the runs. If Dravid and Tendulkar could have done that maybe it wouldn't have costed us the match against Bangladesh. Moreover Ganguly has scored more runs in less innings and about the average that's there you did not give the no. of times Dravid remained Not Out.

but wat has master blaster done for us lately? like in the last 5 years? or is that 10 years now?LOL

master blasterLOL. all we have are the bowlers blasting his wicketsLOL

is it that "what have you done for me lately" syndrome?

forget 2003 worldcup when Sachin Carried us thru to the final and one match he did not score, we lost the WCLOL, it is a oh sachin is out and we have Mcgrath to face, let us commit harakiri, Dada ka to sawal hi nahi, he tells them to warm up the tea, and by the time it is warmed up, he is backLOL

Leading by example, isnt that one of the qualities of leadershipLOL

yaar, it's been obvious even to the dummy commentators over the years that sachin has hardly played a match-winning innings. while others have. so india wins inspite of him. might as well not carry his baggage aroundWink

as for leadership traits, sorry you dont get it.Wink those have to include finding good personnel, training them, motivating them, creating a winning combination etc. Ganguly brought up sehwag, laxman, yuvraj, kaif, harbhajan, dhoni etc. He also got the team to shake off all its losing ways. dravid? gone back to old losing habits.Wink Tendulkar? couldn't handle the pressure.LOL

Perhaps you are misunderstanding the argument I have here

oh my apologies in that caseSmile

Sachin is not a better captain, hasnt claimed to be, and does not even want captainship, even if he wants he is not getting it, the chain of command is Dravid--> Sehwag --> whoever younger

that is the chain and we all know it. question is if that should have been the chain of command in the first place

Sourav was a good captain in his days, he is not the captain, nor should people ask for him to be made a captain, this goes back to the whole era of flipflopping captainships depending on one bad series/one bad season

that's a valid point. and i agree wit that

Dravid is the current captain, he has an off year as a batsman, it needs to be evaluated if his batting is getting impacted, if yes, they need to start building up a new leader, That is why Sehwag is still retained despite his poor form this season, If not him it will be someone younger who will be groomed, but will not be Ganguly, if him it might please some, but on the longer run hurts Indian cricket more than anything.

As a Batsman, Sachin has proved he is the best ODI player on this team on the longer run, This and past year he has been in and out of form due to his injuries, but he has a steady number of good innings, His Strike rate is in the upper echeleon in ODI for players who have played more than 100 ODI's, he has a better strike rate, average,

my hypothesis is that his stats are bloated by his early years. have hardly seen him play well the last 5-10 years. cant just rest on past laurels and not contribute in terms of match-winning innings

practically everything than Dravid and Ganguly, His performance does not dip or increase if it is a smaller cricket playing country or the World champs. He can play the role of an anchor or a striker depending upon need(look at last match against Bermuda) or as a anchor a role that has been thrust upon him when Ganguly went into a 3-4 year slump and Sehwag was playing good.. He is a five tool player, Occassional Strike bowler, above average fielder, etc, Even if one thing is not clicking in a match, he can compensate with the others.

Ganguly was a good player in his era, however in the later part all he did was play against the minnows and collect his paycheck against the big teams, perhaps that is the reason India got the tag of chokers. Ganguly seems to be in form this season, he has had a good SA series, however what Indian team is hoping for is, he carry us till we get Dravid/Tendulkar/Sehwag back on track, But captainship no way

issue was leadership and on that score ganguly proved better than dravid. caveat of course is "thus far". i am also not talking about strategic longer-term interests since that would take us way off-track.Smile

He contribution lead us to win in one match, loss in another, let us hope he is able to keep us afloat till the others start contributing(like Sachin did in 2003 as "another" player)

yes, like starting tomorrow.Smile again, i am no fan of ganguly but i learned to like him recently for his grit, hard work and determination, qualities a good captain should have.



Edited by chatbuster - 22 March 2007 at 9:15am

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