Sex Changes: should be banned? - Page 3

Originally posted by: Connie

http://www.mid-day.com/news/2008/jul/050708world.htm

I have seen and read the article. And i have a request to make: those of who wud like to debate, to go thru this link. This link might help us in enlightening us which is right.

Originally posted by: Connie

I found this on mid-day a man gave birth to a baby girl

Thye red colored word "A man" is wrong. The person isnt a man, neither a woman. But i guess calling the person woman is still right than calling this person man, as, this person has given birth to a child. And we all know that to give birth to a child, the person HAS TO BE  woman. Though the person looks mannish, i will say that many female do looks masculine. BUT NO MALE can give birth.

See this link is enough to proove that the problem caused by changing gender. The man himself admits that "He can't feed his child milk...". Now many might say that many mothers cant feed there child...but those mothers are in problem obviously. A just-born child obvsly needs his mothers milk more than anything.

And this is just the beginning. More problems are yet to come...he thinks himself to be a man, but yet gave birth to a child...so u can imagine how many troubles in the man's way are yet to come... 

Originally posted by: stranger@mirror

Own body CAN NEVER be a mistake untill u think it to be...if someobody feels to be of the opposite gender, then he should attend therapy instead of changing his own body...ofcourse using therapy to change ur views is easier than changing ur own body...

There are unusual and uncanny instances in nature. There are many things that can go wrong when the cell divides to become a human. Extra limbs, distorted features etc maybe how nature intended it but for a human in society it feels like a mistake and mistakes that must be fixed. Similarly having the wrong genitals can be felt like a mistake that must be fixed. Studies have shown that while transgender people are biologically male or female, their hormonal levels are not of typical male or female and lean towards the opposite sex. Something could have gone wrong in fetal development.  

I am not denying therapy as an option. In fact anyone who wants to go through transition has to undergo mandatory therapy and counseling to determine if this is the way to go and prepare them for the changes. Some people do realize that they may have some aspects of the opposite sex but do not want the whole change and give up. Others go through.

I dont want to go on a personal discussion, but i will just say that one of my very close relative, whom i know more than anyone...and he's that kind of person who feels like the opposite gender. He was like that, and he even wanted to change his gender...but everyone disaprooved of that. But then he tried a lot, and he succeeded. Now there are no signs of feminine in him....

As I said therapy works for some and does not work for some. You want a good therapist as repression can lead to future problems.

 

How can u be so sure that changing the gender will make someone happy?? Today a particular person might feel to be of the opposite gender, and decides to change his gender...but then after some day he again feels to be of the gender he was previously...because what he is born with is his actual gender. So then what will that person do, change his gender again...?? Then again and again??

I know quite a few people who have undergone transition. They were absolutely happy with their decision. None of these people have wanted to switch back. Besides transition is a trying process, that is overwhelming for the body psychologically, physically and to the pocket book too. Surgical procedures and not something that can be done, undone and redone. No one flips flops continuously between genders....so that point is irrelevant and out of the question.

And u also are forgetting that if changing gender was allowed...then almost all girls wud have changed themselves into a boy...then there wud be 90% girlsm, but 10% boys in the world...what wud happen then??

Erm excuse me. How chauvanist is that. Most of us women are more than happy with what we have and can deal with mother natures monthly gift and would rather be grated to death than get d***s. 

The fact is we all have male aspects and female aspects to our behavior, but on the whole most of us are more than happy to be the gender we are. That is just totally flawed logic. Just because something would be allowed does not mean most people want to do it. Conduct a poll, even if they could change genders most people are happy with who they are.

It does....as i mentioned above.

It does not as I explained.

Does it threaten your manhood? Does in incapacitate you in anyway to lead a normal healthy life with family? Does it cause physical and emotional distress to you personally when someone else changes their gender?

The whole world will not change themselves into one gender, that is actually a ridiculous assumption.

Besides gender changing would be a nice option. Considering that there will be too many men in India and China, perhaps some men should become women to balance the equation .

Fine...in this world, there seems to be very little people who cares about what God has said...but think it from  an ethical point of view...see it urself that wether it benefts society or not..

Actually now that I think of it gender change is a very very nice way to balance the skewed male female population ratios. Besides my whole concept is 'Only God shall judge', humans are mean to live and let live.

It does.. As i mentioned it above, but lemme If this legal, then most girls wud have converted them into boys. So  u can understand how much harmful it wud be for a society which contaisn all girls, and little boys. Plus people might again feel like changing there gender after they have changed once, because the gender u are born with is ur real gender.

Girls do not want to be boys. Get rid of that ludicrous misconception.
Most people are happy with their gender.
It is not possible to keep changing genders. You don't remove tonsils,put them back then remove again do you? The human body does not work that way.

So if someone wishes to change gender so be it.

Honestly even if the go man-woman-man-woman-man. What the heck do I care. They are messing with themselves not me.

Edited by return_to_hades - 15 years ago

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

There are unusual and uncanny instances in nature. There are many things that can go wrong when the cell divides to become a human.

Yeah, but thats only in the case of physical parts. Characterisitics doesnt depend on genes, it depends on environment.

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

Extra limbs, distorted features etc maybe how nature intended it but for a human in society it feels like a mistake and mistakes that must be fixed.

Like iu said its a physical problem, which can be fixed.

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

Similarly having the wrong genitals can be felt like a mistake that must be fixed.

Thats what i am saying...fix it. But remember, its not the genital which is wrong. Its ur characterisitics which is wrong. Thus mfix ur character (by therapy) instead of fixing ur genital. Cause the genital u were born with is ur real gender, and the characterisitics which u have is due to environmental pressure. Thus fix ur characterisitics not genital.

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

Studies have shown that while transgender people are biologically male or female, their hormonal levels are not of typical male or female and lean towards the opposite sex. Something could have gone wrong in fetal development.  

Source, please...

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

I am not denying therapy as an option. In fact anyone who wants to go through transition has to undergo mandatory therapy and counseling to determine if this is the way to go and prepare them for the changes.

So u see, THERAPY is always needed. cause its the main cure. 

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

Some people do realize that they may have some aspects of the opposite sex but do not want the whole change and give up. Others go through.

Okay ....

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

Sometimes people are born with male or female body, but their hormones lean towards the opposite gender.

Hormone leans toward the opposite gender, but i think its the environment who is more resonsible for this, more than the hormone.

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

Their feelings and emotions are of the opposite sex. They identify with the opposite gender. They feel trapped in a body that they feel is not theirs and desire to change. They feel becoming of a different gender will make them live better fulfilled lives.

Thats what i said naa....under go a therapy and become what u really are.😛

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

As I said therapy works for some and does not work for some. You want a good therapist as repression can lead to future problems.

  Such as...??

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

I know quite a few people who have undergone transition. They were absolutely happy with their decision. None of these people have wanted to switch back.

Well, on that case i also have seen many people who have undergone transition and then they regret for it...thinking that actually what they were before were their real gender.

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

Besides transition is a trying process, that is overwhelming for the body psychologically, physically and to the pocket book too. Surgical procedures and not something that can be done, undone and redone. No one flips flops continuously between genders....so that point is irrelevant and out of the question.

I havent said that peoploe will keep on doing it...i said people might feel like doing it. There might be problem during surgery. A member had send a link in this topic, have u read that? There they show a man (Yeah a complete man) is pregnant!! The man didnt have any problem with it...but many others might have. He becoming pregnant means his surgery wasnt successful. So unsuccessful surgery might lead to a person becoming of NEITHER gender, which is even worse. That time he/she might regret and feel that their past gender was better than doing surgery.

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

Erm excuse me. How chauvanist is that. Most of us women are more than happy with what we have and can deal with mother natures monthly gift and would rather be grated to death than get d***s. 

Well thats what u think. But many wants to be.

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

The fact is we all have male aspects and female aspects to our behavior, but on the whole most of us are more than happy to be the gender we are. That is just totally flawed logic. Just because something would be allowed does not mean most people want to do it. Conduct a poll, even if they could change genders most people are happy with who they are.

In one poll, i have seen that most girls wants to be boys...i will provide with the source to you after sometime as its not with me right now.

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

Does it threaten your manhood? Does in incapacitate you in anyway to lead a normal healthy life with family? Does it cause physical and emotional distress to you personally when someone else changes their gender?

No it doesnt. Infact whena killer is killing hundread other people but no one from my family, it aslo doesnt cause me harm. So nbow shud i support him cause he doesnt case me harm??

Something which causes harm to himself or to the society must be stopped, wether it causes direct harm to me or not.😛

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

The whole world will not change themselves into one gender, that is actually a ridiculous assumption.

But there can be problems...there might be more of one gender less of others. Infact most transmition arent successful which makes the person neither male nor female which is even worse than being effiminate or mannish.

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

Besides gender changing would be a nice option. Considering that there will be too many men in India and China, perhaps some men should become women to balance the equation .

But how can u be so sure that it is the man who will turn into woman to blamnce the equation. What if very few mwn turns intoi a woman while more female turns into men...then it will cause more problem. Then there will be a huge amount of boys, and very few girls.

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

Actually now that I think of it gender change is a very very nice way to balance the skewed male female population ratios.

As i said, u never know wether it will balance the population or not. It might do the opposite as well. Too much of one gnder, and too less of the other.

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

Besides my whole concept is 'Only God shall judge', humans are mean to live and let live.

Live and let live --- unless and untill it harms anyone/any individual/the society/or himself.

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

Girls do not want to be boys. Get rid of that ludicrous misconception.

And its not a "ludicrous misconception" its a fact.

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

Most people are happy with their gender.

omg then whats the need to changing it after all ??

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

It is not possible to keep changing genders. You don't remove tonsils,put them back then remove again do you? The human body does not work that way.

People dont want tonsils thus they dont put it back. But after changing from the gender which God gave u, people might regret and feel to go back to that gender, because after all that is the gender by which they were born. And yeah the body doesnt work that way, thats why its better to not change even once...

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

So if someone wishes to change gender so be it.

If someone wishes to do a thing let him...unless it harms anyone/the society/himself.

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

Honestly even if the go man-woman-man-woman-man. What the heck do I care. They are messing with themselves not me.

They are messing with themselves, and destroying themselves...if we not care who will?? And it also affects society.

Edited by stranger@mirror - 15 years ago

Originally posted by: stranger@mirror

I have seen and read the article. And i have a request to make: those of who wud like to debate, to go thru this link. This link might help us in enlightening us which is right.

Thye red colored word "A man" is wrong. The person isnt a man, neither a woman. But i guess calling the person woman is still right than calling this person man, as, this person has given birth to a child. And we all know that togive birth to a child,the person HAS TO BE woman. Though the person looks mannish, i will say that many female do looks masculine. BUT NO MALE can give birth.

See this link is enough to proove that the problem caused by changing gender. The man himself admits that "He can't feedhis child milk...". Now many might say that many mothers cant feed there child...but those mothers are in problem obviously. A just-born child obvsly needs his mothers milk more than anything.

And this is just the beginning. More problems are yet to come...hethinks himself to be a man,but yet gave birth to a child...so u can imagine how many troubles inthe man's way are yet to come...

BTW I don't think the title pregnant woman gives birth would create a stir.... cos all pregnant women give birth. See "Man Gives Birth To A Baby Girl" is more eye catching 😳


You might want to go to this link. I tried posting the pics but it's not going thru 😕

http://www.daijiworld.com/news/news_disp.asp?n_id=48412&n_ti t=USA%3A%20%27Pregnant%20Man%27%20Delivers%20Girl
Edited by Connie - 15 years ago

Originally posted by: Connie

BTW I don't think the title pregnant woman gives birth would create a stir.... cos all pregnant women give birth.

As i said the person isnt woman anymore as the person has undergone surgery and and became a boy. He isnt a boy either as he gave birth to a child.

Originally posted by: Connie

See "Man Gives Birth To A Baby Girl" is more eye catching 😳


You might want to go to this link. I tried posting the pics but it's not going thru 😕

http://www.daijiworld.com/news/news_disp.asp?n_id=48412& n_ti t=USA%3A%20%27Pregnant%20Man%27%20Delivers%20Girl

You arent getting me right...what i am trying to say is that it isnt normal. If he has become a boy after surgery it means he has become a boy...bvut u see, he has given birth to a girl, thus he isnt a boy...and then again he isnt a girl too as he has undergone surgery...and that is not normal. It might and i am sure it will cause problem if not now, then in the future.

Originally posted by: stranger@mirror

As i said the person isnt woman anymore as the person has undergone surgery and and became a boy. He isnt a boy either as he gave birth to a child.

You arent getting me right...what i am trying to say is that it isnt normal. If he has become a boy after surgery it means he has become a boy...bvut u see, he has given birth to a girl, thus he isnt a boy...and then again he isnt a girl too as he has undergone surgery...and that is not normal. It might and i am sure it will cause problem if not now, then in the future.

I will just call this person an IT....cos he is neither boy nor girl 😆

Originally posted by: Connie

I will just call this person an IT....cos he is neither boy nor girl 😆

Though i dont know what this IT is...😳 i agree with u that the person is neither male nor female. And thats what the problem of sex change. The person is surely suffering now because the person is now scattering in between two genders.

Originally posted by: raj5000

Appearance and way of living can be changed, but biological change - well IMO let not play with nature.

Aareh rajbabua isn't it kind of late to be saying that? It almost sounds holier than thou to me. We humans have already played with, cheated and beaten nature? What would you call Organ Transplants, Cloning, Medicines that cure diseases, Genetically Reengineered animals, and fruits and veggies, The Altered Environment to name a few?

Gender identity is quite a complicated issues. Nature and nurture both collectively influence how a person perceives their gender identity and gender identities vary across culture.

Let us take the human anatomy. Sex chromosomes determine our gender. X chromosome is female and Y chromosome is male. XX is female, XY is male. All men have the female chromosome. Then we have our sex hormones Androgens which are male sex hormones, and Progestagens which are female sex hormones. These hormones are present in both sexes.

Many times the genetic make up has flaws or hormonal level gets imbalanced. Men with dominant female genes or higher level of female hormones will have lack facial and bodily hair, have lower sex drive, have lower pitched voices and even start developing boobs. Women on the other hand with higher male hormones develop excessive unwanted facial hair, bulk up muscle easily, have higher sex drives, have lower pitched voices.

These are just simple genetic and hormonal issues. Sometimes they can be corrected otherwise not. Some people do not even bother to be corrected.

We all know that people with both male and female genitalia are born in nature. Sometimes fetal development goes totally awry. When sex determination comes in the genetic blueprint can be messed up. Mother nature does not intend "Its" but they happen.

Flaws in genetic development, genetic makeup, hormonal imbalances combined with nurture can result in a person being born male or female, but with a sexual and psychological identity of the opposite sex.

A lot of this is basic biology. They should be teaching DNA, chromosomes and sex hormones in school. If not there are several good textbooks available that go indepth into fetal development specifically sex determination and explain all the mess ups that can happen.

Now a common mistake people do is confuse transexuals, with transvestites, hermaphrodites and even homoseuxals.

A homosexual is one who is sexually attracted to someone of the same sex.

Cross dressers, drags, genderqueer, and transvestites can be gay, straight or bisexual. These are people who like dressing up as the opposite sex, like living in an opposite sex lifestyle, or just be androgynous and bend gender identity and roles for a variety of reasons.

Transexual is a person who sexually & psychologically identifies with the opposite sex.

Therapy is a good option for anyone who falls into the LGBT spectrum. Not necessarily because they need to be cured or fixed, but because they need to truly understand themselves and make the right choices.

Why the therapist needs to be good. It is because the approach "Transexualism is wrong and I will fix you" will not cause the person to honestly open up. The therapist has to ask a series of questions and engage in discussions to help the person honestly express themselves. It is natural for people to be confused about gender identity, and a therapist can help identify if they are indeed transexual or simply having a gender identity crisis.

Repression occurs when a persons true feelings and emotions are suppressed. Personal expression is pent up and bottled up. Eventually pent up emotions can be released through irrational rage, self inflicted harm, depression, anxiety, disconnection from society and a range of other psychological challenges can make life difficult.

Its a natural human tendency. Say someone annoys you but you try to be patient. You hold in that annoyance. This goes on for a while till you explode and completely scare the other person. Imagine this magnified 10 times. That is repression.

Why sex change should be allowed?

Because there are individuals who may truly need it. Transexuals who are struggling with life trapped in a body that feels alien to them.

Also many parents who give birth to a hermaphrodite choose a sex and ask the doctor to make their child male or female only. They do this because a hermaphrodite is a taboo in society. They love their kids and do not want them to be hurt. But what happens is that the kid goes into teens, sex hormones kick and and they discover that their gender identity is that of the opposite sex. [They actually had an SVU episode on this issue too].

Who does sex change harm?

No one really. First of all it is legal in many parts of the world. I am yet to see the sex change apocalypse.

Definitely someone or the other will make a misinformed decision. There are bound to be regrets no matter what.

Then we have to think about it. Do they harm themselves or do we harm them. Brandon Teena, Gwen Araujo, Barry Winchell and Calpernia Adams. Did they harm us or themselves or did we brutalize them.

If we simply could be accepting, understanding, respecting and caring...no one would harm themselves or others. When you look at it the physical and emotional damage is caused by unacceptance, in reality there is no harm to the choice.

Finally I absolutely resent the remark that most girls want to be boys. It is completely chauvinist. Yes many of us girls like to wear boys clothing as it is more convenient and comfortable. We like to have freedom like boys to play rough games, roam freely without worrying about being a 'khuli tijori'. We would love not to have periods, labor pains or hot flashes. We may even develop girl crushes and form physio-emotional bonds with other girls (PS: This is not gay and often not even sexual in anyway. It is just part of female behavior and also part influence of pheromones and testosterones in our growth phase). We will often cite, I wish I was a boy.

That DOES NOT mean if given a choice we will be boys. We do not gender identify with boys. We identify with some aspects of boys. We do not feel sexually male. We are happy with all our parts and despite mother natures strange gifts throughout life we love being a woman. Even the most dykish of all dykes would rather be a woman than a man.

A survey might say women wish or fantasize to be men or would like to be men. But that DOES NOT mean women anatomically and psychologically want to be men.

Originally posted by: bunbutt_too

Aareh rajbabua isn't it kind of late to be saying that? It almost sounds holier than thou to me. We humans have already played with, cheated and beaten nature? What would you call Organ Transplants, Cloning, Medicines that cure diseases, Genetically Reengineered animals, and fruits and veggies, The Altered Environment to name a few?

I dont think oragn transplant and changing ur gender is the same thing. We dont do organ transplant unless its emergency, i.e. we might face a loss if we dont do it. There are no alternative, but incase of changing gender, as i said earlier in my posts, there is alternatives. Plus organ transplant doessnt cause harm, as do changing gender.😊