Is reducing kiss scene justified in new Bond movie? - Page 2

Shahid Ashrif

@Deepthought

Senior Member

Posted: 8 years ago

that some is really miniscule and let me hear what should be the right moral values according to to you?

I raised some serious issues which you failed to address properly and now you have this tactic of asking about my personal view of morality. The discussion was about the censoring of a film - remember?

Even members who sit on the Film Board that makes these decisions, have said publicly on television that the board should not be seen as censoring. It is a board to award certification. It has also been reported by some of those board members that the Chair of the Board made a unilateral decision to make the cuts to the Bond film. On this matter, I made my view clear in my first post. The Board should award a suitable certificate according to which group it considers the film is suitable to view. And then the decision of whether or not to watch it should be down to the public. So if the Board is scandaliszed by the kissing scene in the Bond film ( - as you appear to be-) let it award an X certificate.

Morality is a complex issue, and as far as moral/ethical values go, I pointed out some contradictions in Indian attitudes. You dodged those important points. That was the reason I was unimpressed by your response.

Your superficial and sexist dismissal of the matter of scantily clad females shaking their bosoms and bottoms is very revealing. If morals/social mores are absolute, why is it that such scenes were never shown some 30 years ago in Bollywood films?

BTW, it was also troublesome that you gave the impression that you not only speak on behalf of Indian society (which is complex and diverse) but also on behalf of women. I suggest you try actually reading or listening to the analyses of women and what they are saying about how sexism operates and is re-inforced in society. I can give you many examples highlighted over the last few years of where Indian men in the name of moral values, and having the authority of being local community leaders have perpetrated (or threatened to) heinous punishments, even on some innnocent parties. If one is not breaching the law of the land, then imo people should be permitted to act as they see fit.

I believe in an on-going discussion about morals/values and their impact on all citizens. However unlike you, I do not seek to impose my own moral values on others - but will debate on the matter.

In case you accuse me of ducking your question, can I remind you that this forum is called Writer's Forum. I have posted about six or so stories on this forum. Most of them raise raise moral issues that the characters grapple with. I do my best not to tell people what they should do , but rather ask questions for people to consider and then come to their own decisions. Sometimes people think certain matters are straight forward and unproblematic. It is the responsibility of writers/authors to not only entertain readers but also encourage them to think. I'm glad to say that the world over, including in India, authors/writers have done that job well and served the interests of society as a whole.

Jai Hind! 😊

Edited by Deepthought - 8 years ago

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sudesh kumar

@qwertyesque

IF-Rockerz

Posted: 8 years ago

Originally posted by: Deepthought

that some is really miniscule and let me hear what should be the right moral values according to to you?

[/QUOTE]

I raised some serious issues which you failed to address properly and now you have this tactic of asking about my personal view of morality. The discussion was about the censoring of a film - remember?

Even members who sit on the Film Board that makes these decisions, have said publicly on television that the board should not be seen as censoring. It is a board to award certification. It has also been reported by some of those board members that the Chair of the Board made a unilateral decision to make the cuts to the Bond film. On this matter, I made my view clear in my first post. The Board should award a suitable certificate according to which group it considers the film is suitable to view. And then the decision of whether or not to watch it should be down to the public. So if the Board is scandaliszed by the kissing scene in the Bond film ( - as you appear to be-) let it award an X certificate.

Morality is a complex issue, and as far as moral/ethical values go, I pointed out some contradictions in Indian attitudes. You dodged those important points. That was the reason I was unimpressed by your response.

Your superficial and sexist dismissal of the matter of scantily clad females shaking their bosoms and bottoms is very revealing. If morals/social mores are absolute, why is it that such scenes were never shown some 30 years ago in Bollywood films?

BTW, it was also troublesome that you gave the impression that you not only speak on behalf of Indian society (which is complex and diverse) but also on behalf of women. I suggest you try actually reading or listening to the analyses of women and what they are saying about how sexism operates and is re-inforced in society. I can give you many examples highlighted over the last few years of where Indian men in the name of moral values, and having the authority of being local community leaders have perpetrated (or threatened to) heinous punishments, even on some innnocent parties. If one is not breaching the law of the land, then imo people should be permitted to act as they see fit.

I believe in an on-going discussion about morals/values and their impact on all citizens. However unlike you, I do not seek to impose my own moral values on others - but will debate on the matter.

In case you accuse me of ducking your question, can I remind you that this forum is called Writer's Forum. I have posted about six or so stories on this forum. Most of them raise raise moral issues that the characters grapple with. I do my best not to tell people what they should do , but rather ask questions for people to consider and then come to their own decisions. Sometimes people think certain matters are straight forward and unproblematic. It is the responsibility of writers/authors to not only entertain readers but also encourage them to think. I'm glad to say that the world over, including in India, authors/writers have done that job well and served the interests of society as a whole.

Jai Hind! 😊

[/QUOTE]

You seem to drive your ideas like being liberal is correct and being conservative is oppressive or suppressive. You say " I do my best not to tell people what they should do , but rather ask questions for people to consider and then come to their own decisions" yet when I provide a conservative view you say i am trying to impose my view point... if we discussed this over a coffee you would be surprised to see how liberal i am but just holding liberal views doesnt make you modern it should be within the context of the culture you are in is what matters... so for eg. .I am not quesitoning if french women consider going top less is ok why dont indian women.. but you do hold objecttions when i say that indian women cant go topless because its not part of our culture.. and you might call me imposing.. similarly kissing in american movies is stupid and iwithin our indian society has no meaning,, but if you say allowing that lingering kiss is being modern and being agreeable to those values.. thts right but within the indian context it means nothing...In fact contrary to imposing my view i am stepping in the shoes of those relevant folks and trying to jusify their stand!!! You just pounding your chest with cries of liberalism and you may not even know what you are talking about.. Cultures and societies exist today because people put boundaries and rules ...and there are different set ot boundaries in different cultures... if arabic countries consider american movies are corrupting.. i dont totally disagree with them within the context of their culture. but within the american context i find it acceptable.. ..its important to know the context.

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Shahid Ashrif

@Deepthought

Senior Member

Posted: 8 years ago

Originally posted by: qwertyesque

that some is really miniscule and let me hear what should be the right moral values according to to you?

I raised some serious issues which you failed to address properly and now you have this tactic of asking about my personal view of morality. The discussion was about the censoring of a film - remember?

Even members who sit on the Film Board that makes these decisions, have said publicly on television that the board should not be seen as censoring. It is a board to award certification. It has also been reported by some of those board members that the Chair of the Board made a unilateral decision to make the cuts to the Bond film. On this matter, I made my view clear in my first post. The Board should award a suitable certificate according to which group it considers the film is suitable to view. And then the decision of whether or not to watch it should be down to the public. So if the Board is scandaliszed by the kissing scene in the Bond film ( - as you appear to be-) let it award an X certificate.

Morality is a complex issue, and as far as moral/ethical values go, I pointed out some contradictions in Indian attitudes. You dodged those important points. That was the reason I was unimpressed by your response.

Your superficial and sexist dismissal of the matter of scantily clad females shaking their bosoms and bottoms is very revealing. If morals/social mores are absolute, why is it that such scenes were never shown some 30 years ago in Bollywood films?

BTW, it was also troublesome that you gave the impression that you not only speak on behalf of Indian society (which is complex and diverse) but also on behalf of women. I suggest you try actually reading or listening to the analyses of women and what they are saying about how sexism operates and is re-inforced in society. I can give you many examples highlighted over the last few years of where Indian men in the name of moral values, and having the authority of being local community leaders have perpetrated (or threatened to) heinous punishments, even on some innnocent parties. If one is not breaching the law of the land, then imo people should be permitted to act as they see fit.

I believe in an on-going discussion about morals/values and their impact on all citizens. However unlike you, I do not seek to impose my own moral values on others - but will debate on the matter.

In case you accuse me of ducking your question, can I remind you that this forum is called Writer's Forum. I have posted about six or so stories on this forum. Most of them raise raise moral issues that the characters grapple with. I do my best not to tell people what they should do , but rather ask questions for people to consider and then come to their own decisions. Sometimes people think certain matters are straight forward and unproblematic. It is the responsibility of writers/authors to not only entertain readers but also encourage them to think. I'm glad to say that the world over, including in India, authors/writers have done that job well and served the interests of society as a whole.

Jai Hind! 😊

You seem to drive your ideas like being liberal is correct and being conservative is oppressive or suppressive. You say " I do my best not to tell people what they should do , but rather ask questions for people to consider and then come to their own decisions" yet when I provide a conservative view you say i am trying to impose my view point... if we discussed this over a coffee you would be surprised to see how liberal i am but just holding liberal views doesnt make you modern it should be within the context of the culture you are in is what matters... so for eg. .I am not quesitoning if french women consider going top less is ok why dont indian women.. but you do hold objecttions when i say that indian women cant go topless because its not part of our culture.. and you might call me imposing.. similarly kissing in american movies is stupid and iwithin our indian society has no meaning,, but if you say allowing that lingering kiss is being modern and being agreeable to those values.. thts right but within the indian context it means nothing...In fact contrary to imposing my view i am stepping in the shoes of those relevant folks and trying to jusify their stand!!! You just pounding your chest with cries of liberalism and you may not even know what you are talking about.. Cultures and societies exist today because people put boundaries and rules ...and there are different set ot boundaries in different cultures... if arabic countries consider american movies are corrupting.. i dont totally disagree with them within the context of their culture. but within the american context i find it acceptable.. ..its important to know the context.

You are very selective about what you choose to answer. I raised several points which you have failed to address. And even when you do make your point it is in a limited way as indicated in your response above.

I repeat, I am unimpressed by your reply.

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Quote

sudesh kumar

@qwertyesque

IF-Rockerz

Posted: 8 years ago

Originally posted by: Deepthought

I raised some serious issues which you failed to address properly and now you have this tactic of asking about my personal view of morality. The discussion was about the censoring of a film - remember?

Even members who sit on the Film Board that makes these decisions, have said publicly on television that the board should not be seen as censoring. It is a board to award certification. It has also been reported by some of those board members that the Chair of the Board made a unilateral decision to make the cuts to the Bond film. On this matter, I made my view clear in my first post. The Board should award a suitable certificate according to which group it considers the film is suitable to view. And then the decision of whether or not to watch it should be down to the public. So if the Board is scandaliszed by the kissing scene in the Bond film ( - as you appear to be-) let it award an X certificate.

Morality is a complex issue, and as far as moral/ethical values go, I pointed out some contradictions in Indian attitudes. You dodged those important points. That was the reason I was unimpressed by your response.

Your superficial and sexist dismissal of the matter of scantily clad females shaking their bosoms and bottoms is very revealing. If morals/social mores are absolute, why is it that such scenes were never shown some 30 years ago in Bollywood films?

BTW, it was also troublesome that you gave the impression that you not only speak on behalf of Indian society (which is complex and diverse) but also on behalf of women. I suggest you try actually reading or listening to the analyses of women and what they are saying about how sexism operates and is re-inforced in society. I can give you many examples highlighted over the last few years of where Indian men in the name of moral values, and having the authority of being local community leaders have perpetrated (or threatened to) heinous punishments, even on some innnocent parties. If one is not breaching the law of the land, then imo people should be permitted to act as they see fit.

I believe in an on-going discussion about morals/values and their impact on all citizens. However unlike you, I do not seek to impose my own moral values on others - but will debate on the matter.

In case you accuse me of ducking your question, can I remind you that this forum is called Writer's Forum. I have posted about six or so stories on this forum. Most of them raise raise moral issues that the characters grapple with. I do my best not to tell people what they should do , but rather ask questions for people to consider and then come to their own decisions. Sometimes people think certain matters are straight forward and unproblematic. It is the responsibility of writers/authors to not only entertain readers but also encourage them to think. I'm glad to say that the world over, including in India, authors/writers have done that job well and served the interests of society as a whole.

Jai Hind! 😊

You seem to drive your ideas like being liberal is correct and being conservative is oppressive or suppressive. You say " I do my best not to tell people what they should do , but rather ask questions for people to consider and then come to their own decisions" yet when I provide a conservative view you say i am trying to impose my view point... if we discussed this over a coffee you would be surprised to see how liberal i am but just holding liberal views doesnt make you modern it should be within the context of the culture you are in is what matters... so for eg. .I am not quesitoning if french women consider going top less is ok why dont indian women.. but you do hold objecttions when i say that indian women cant go topless because its not part of our culture.. and you might call me imposing.. similarly kissing in american movies is stupid and iwithin our indian society has no meaning,, but if you say allowing that lingering kiss is being modern and being agreeable to those values.. thts right but within the indian context it means nothing...In fact contrary to imposing my view i am stepping in the shoes of those relevant folks and trying to jusify their stand!!! You just pounding your chest with cries of liberalism and you may not even know what you are talking about.. Cultures and societies exist today because people put boundaries and rules ...and there are different set ot boundaries in different cultures... if arabic countries consider american movies are corrupting.. i dont totally disagree with them within the context of their culture. but within the american context i find it acceptable.. ..its important to know the context.

You are very selective about what you choose to answer. I raised several points which you have failed to address. And even when you do make your point it is in a limited way as indicated in your response above.

I repeat, I am unimpressed by your reply.

now i am convinced there are comprehension issues so I leave you with at peace with your view point

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Shahid Ashrif

@Deepthought

Senior Member

Posted: 8 years ago

now i am convinced there are comprehension issues so I leave you with at peace with your view point

I'm glad you agree that you have comprehension issues! You don't wish to engage with where moral or cultural values come from and whether these values change oover time or even whether there's a diversity of view about what is or isn't moral. That's why I said your view was simplistic.

You are entitled to your morality - just don't force it upon me/others, and keep in mind that you cannot speak for all Indian and many women would take serious issue with your sexist perceptions.

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sudesh kumar

@qwertyesque

IF-Rockerz

Posted: 8 years ago

Originally posted by: Deepthought

now i am convinced there are comprehension issues so I leave you with at peace with your view point

[/QUOTE]

I'm glad you agree that you have comprehension issues! You don't wish to engage with where moral or cultural values come from and whether these values change oover time or even whether there's a diversity of view about what is or isn't moral. That's why I said your view was simplistic.

You are entitled to your morality - just don't force it upon me/others, and keep in mind that you cannot speak for all Indian and many women would take serious issue with your sexist perceptions.

[/QUOTE]

try to quantify that and you will be surprised!!! I mean its not just agreeing to something but actually doing what you believe..😆😆😭

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Angel-likeDevil

@Angel-likeDevil

IF-Stunnerz

+ 2

Posted: 8 years ago

I dont understand why or how it matters...cutting short the intimate scenes -_-

There's plenty of scenes/films on internet. Kissing and stuff aren't necessary to be shown in movies. But if they show also, it does not matter, they're showing that which is natural.
If the censor board decides to omit such scenes, it's no big deal...how does it matter? Point is how does it matter?

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sudesh kumar

@qwertyesque

IF-Rockerz

Posted: 8 years ago

Originally posted by: Angel-likeDevil
I dont understand why or how it matters...cutting short the intimate scenes -_-

There's plenty of scenes/films on internet. Kissing and stuff aren't necessary to be shown in movies. But if they show also, it does not matter, they're showing that which is natural.
If the censor board decides to omit such scenes, it's no big deal...how does it matter? Point is how does it matter?

Right. the problem is if they show they may mislead people into believing those things.. lets say for example someone wants to learn how to kiss.. where do they go.. its a practical learning thing they dont teach anywhere how to be a good kisser. 😊 showing such lingering kisses in the movie makes all such people . think thats the right way to do it.. but if you think hte people who make the movies have the same deliemma.. as to what constitutes a good kiss.. but by bombarding their view through this medium they kind of proclaiming their way to be the right way..The ban merely says its more embarrassing for the common man and possible bad influence so lets cut it down.. ok.. this was more deeper reason.. for all you know that censor guy was just whetting his ego by moral policing... but you said it correctly this doesnt really matter .. i agree.

1

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Shahid Ashrif

@Deepthought

Senior Member

Posted: 8 years ago

Originally posted by: Angel-likeDevil
I dont understand why or how it matters...cutting short the intimate scenes -_-

There's plenty of scenes/films on internet. Kissing and stuff aren't necessary to be shown in movies. But if they show also, it does not matter, they're showing that which is natural.
If the censor board decides to omit such scenes, it's no big deal...how does it matter? Point is how does it matter?

On the one hand some people try to make out that films in the cinema is the only way/or material people view material, and in the next breadth that Indians are very multi-media savvy! These same films (and much more explicit ones too!) are watched by people via internet connections.

Governments all over the world keep trying to limit what their populations see/hear but unless people live under dictatorships/oppressive regimes, ordinary people can still access the world wide web and see/read what they like.

So I get tired of the hypocritical manure I hear and read from the moral police.

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sudesh kumar

@qwertyesque

IF-Rockerz

Posted: 8 years ago

Originally posted by: Deepthought

On the one hand some people try to make out that films in the cinema is the only way/or material people view material, and in the next breadth that Indians are very multi-media savvy! These same films (and much more explicit ones too!) are watched by people via internet connections.

Governments all over the world keep trying to limit what their populations see/hear but unless people live under dictatorships/oppressive regimes, ordinary people can still access the world wide web and see/read what they like.

So I get tired of the hypocritical manure I hear and read from the moral police.

me too am tired of this 😆

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