Dharamkshetra discussion thread 2 (Page 27)

amritat IF-Dazzler

Joined: 16 March 2011
Posts: 4046

Posted: 23 May 2015 at 7:09am | IP Logged
Originally posted by CaptainSpark

Here you go, Durga! The only work on Karna which made me cry. I CRIED being an ardent Karna hater, This one is a classic! Must read...

Karna Kunti Sangbad by Rabindranath Tagore

Rabindranath Tagore

Dialogue between Karna and Kunti

<font size="3">Karna:</font>

<font size="3">On sacred Jahnavi's shore I say my prayers</font>

<font size="3">to the evening sun. Karna is my name,</font>

<font size="3">son of Adhirath the charioteer, and Radha is my mother.</font>

<font size="3">That's who I am. Lady, who are you?</font>

<font size="3">Kunti:</font>

<font size="3">Child, in the first dawn of your life</font>

<font size="3">it was I who introduced you to this wide world.</font>

<font size="3">That's me, and today I've cast aside</font>

<font size="3">all embarrassment, to tell you who I am.</font>

<font size="3">Karna:</font>

<font size="3">Respected lady, the light of your lowered eyes</font>

<font size="3">melts my heart, as the sun's rays melt</font>

<font size="3">mountain snows. Your voice</font>

<font size="3">pierces my ears as a voice from a previous birth</font>

<font size="3">and stirs strange pain. Tell me then,</font>

<font size="3">by what mystery's chain is my birth linked</font>

<font size="3">to you, unknown woman?</font>

<font size="3">Kunti:</font>

<font size="3">                                              Oh, be patient,</font>

<font size="3">child, for a moment! Let the sun-god first</font>

<font size="3">slide to his rest, and let evening's darkness</font>

<font size="3">thicken round us. - Now let me tell you, warrior,</font>

<font size="3">I am Kunti.</font>

<font size="3">Karna:</font>

<font size="3">                        You are Kunti! The mother of Arjun!</font>

<font size="3">Kunti:</font>

<font size="3">Arjun's mother indeed! But son,</font>

<font size="3">don't hate me for that. How I still recall</font>

<font size="3">the day of the tournament when you, a young bachelor,</font>

<font size="3">slowly entered the arena in Hastina-city</font>

<font size="3">as the newly rising sun enters the margin</font>

<font size="3">of the eastern sky, still pricked out with stars!</font>

<font size="3">Of all the women watching from behind a screen</font>

<font size="3">who was she, bereft of speech, of luck,</font>

<font size="3">who felt within her tortured breast the pangs</font>

<font size="3">of hungering love, a thousand she-snake fangs?</font>

<font size="3">Whose eyes covered your limbs with blessing's kisses?</font>

<font size="3">It was Arjun's mother! When Kripa advanced</font>

<font size="3">and smiling, asked you to announce your father's name,</font>

<font size="3">saying, He who is not of a royal family born</font>

<font size="3">has no right to challenge Arjun at all,' -</font>

<font size="3">then you, speechless, red with shame, face lowered,</font>

<font size="3">just stood there, and she whose bosom your gleam</font>

<font size="3">of embarrassment burnt like fire: who was that</font>

<font size="3">unlucky woman? Arjun's mother it was!</font>

<font size="3">Blessed is that lad Durjodhan, who thereupon</font>

<font size="3">at once crowned you prince of Anga. Yes, I praise him!</font>

<font size="3">And as you were crowned, the tears streamed from my eyes</font>

<font size="3">to rush towards you, to overflow your head,</font>

<font size="3">when, making his way into the arena,</font>

<font size="3">in entered Adhirath the charioteer, beside himself</font>

<font size="3">with joy, and you, too, in your royal gear</font>

<font size="3">in the midst of the curious crowds milling around</font>

<font size="3">bowed your only-just-anointed head, and saluted</font>

<font size="3">the feet of the old charioteer, calling him Father.</font>

<font size="3">Cruelly, contemptuously they smiled -</font>

<font size="3">the friends of the Pandavs; and right at that instant</font>

<font size="3">she who blessed you as a hero, O you jewel amongst heroes,</font>

<font size="3">I am that woman, the mother of Arjun.</font>

<font size="3">Karna:</font>

<font size="3">I salute you, noble lady. A royal mother you are:</font>

<font size="3">so why are you here alone? This is a field of battle,</font>

<font size="3">and I am the commander of the Kaurav army.</font>

<font size="3">Kunti:</font>

<font size="3">                        Son, I've come to beg a favour of you -</font>

<font size="3">Don't turn me away empty-handed.</font>

<font size="3">Karna:</font>

<font size="3">                                              A favour? From me!</font>

<font size="3">Barring my manhood, and what dharma requires,</font>

<font size="3">the rest will be at your feet if you so desire.</font>

<font size="3">Kunti:</font>

<font size="3">I have come to take you away.</font>

<font size="3">Karna:</font>

<font size="3">                                  And where will you take me?</font>

<font size="3">Kunti:</font>

<font size="3">To my thirsty bosom - to my maternal lap.</font>

<font size="3">Karna:</font>

<font size="3">A lucky woman you are, blessed with five sons,</font>

<font size="3">and I am just a petty princeling, without pedigree -</font>

<font size="3">where would you find room for me?</font>

<font size="3">Kunti:</font>

<font size="3">                                                        Right at the top!</font>

<font size="3">I would place you above all my other sons,</font>

<font size="3">for you are the eldest.</font>

<font size="3">Karna:</font>

<font size="3">                                  By what right </font>

<font size="3">would I enter that sanctum? Tell me how</font>

<font size="3">from those already cheated of empire</font>

<font size="3">I could possibly take a portion of that wealth,</font>

<font size="3">a mother's love, which is fully theirs.</font>

<font size="3">A mother's heart cannot be gambled away</font>

<font size="3">nor be defeated by force. It's a divine gift.</font>

<font size="3">Kunti:</font>

<font size="3">                                              O my son,</font>

<font size="3">with a divine right indeed you had one day </font>

<font size="3">come to this lap - and by that same right</font>

<font size="3">return again, with glory; don't worry at all -</font>

<font size="3">take your own place amongst all your brothers,</font>

<font size="3">on my maternal lap.</font>

<font size="3">Karna:</font>

<font size="3">                                              As if in a dream</font>

<font size="3">I hear your voice, honoured lady. Look, darkness has</font>

<font size="3">engulfed the entire horizon, swallowed the four quarters,</font>

<font size="3">and the river has fallen silent. You have whisked me off</font>

<font size="3">to some enchanted world, some forgotten home,</font>

<font size="3">to the very dawn of awareness. Your words</font>

<font size="3">like age-old truths touch my fascinated heart.</font>

<font size="3">It's as if my own inchoate infancy,</font>

<font size="3">the very obscurity of my mother's womb</font>

<font size="3">was encircling me today. O royal mother,</font>

<font size="3">loving woman, - be this real, or a dream, -</font>

<font size="3">come place your right hand on my brow, my chin</font>

<font size="3">for just a moment. Indeed I had heard</font>

<font size="3">that I had been abandoned by my natural mother.</font>

<font size="3">How often in the depth of night I've had this dream:</font>

<font size="3">that slowly, softly my mother had come to see me,</font>

<font size="3">and I've felt so bleak, and beseeched her in tears,</font>

<font size="3">Mother, remove your veil, let me see your face,' -</font>

<font size="3">and at once the figure has vanished, tearing apart</font>

<font size="3">my greedy thirsty dream. That very dream -</font>

<font size="3">has it come today in the guise of the Pandav mother</font>

<font size="3">this evening, on the battlefield, by the Bhagirathi?</font>

<font size="3">Behold, lady, on the other bank, in the Pandav camp</font>

<font size="3">the lights come on, and on this bank, not far,</font>

<font size="3">in the Kaurav stables a hundred thousand horses</font>

<font size="3">stamp their hooves. Tomorrow morning</font>

<font size="3">the great battle begins. Why tonight</font>

<font size="3">did I have to hear from Arjun's mother's throat</font>

<font size="3">my own mother's voice? Why did my name</font>

<font size="3">ring in her mouth with such exquisite music -</font>

<font size="3">so much so that suddenly my heart</font>

<font size="3">rushes towards the five Pandavs, calling them brothers'?</font>

<font size="3">Kunti:</font>

<font size="3">Then come on, son, come along with me.</font>

<font size="3">Karna:</font>

<font size="3">Yes, Mother, I'll go with you. I won't ask questions -</font>

<font size="3">without a doubt, without a worry, I'll go.</font>

<font size="3">Lady, you are my mother! And your call</font>

<font size="3">has awakened my soul - no longer can I hear</font>

<font size="3">the drums of battle, victory's conch-shells.</font>

<font size="3">The violence of war, a hero's fame, triumph and defeat -</font>

<font size="3">all seem false. Take me. Where should I go?</font>

<font size="3">Kunti:</font>

<font size="3">                                  There, on the other bank,</font>

<font size="3">where the lamps burn in the still tents</font>

<font size="3">on the pale sands.</font>

<font size="3">Karna:</font>

<font size="3">                                              And there a motherless son</font>

<font size="3">shall find his mother for ever! There the pole star</font>

<font size="3">shall wake all night in your lovely generous</font>

<font size="3">eyes. Lady, one more time</font>

<font size="3">say I am your son.</font>

<font size="3">Kunti:</font>

<font size="3">                                    My son!</font>

<font size="3">Karna:</font>

<font size="3">                                              Then why</font>

<font size="3">did you discard me so ingloriously -</font>

<font size="3">no family honour, no mother's eyes to watch me -</font>

<font size="3">to the mercy of this blind, unknown world? Why did you</font>

<font size="3">let me float away on the current of contempt</font>

<font size="3">so irreversibly, banishing me from my brothers?</font>

<font size="3">You put a distance between Arjun and me,</font>

<font size="3">whence from childhood a subtle invisible bond</font>

<font size="3">of bitter enmity pulls us to each other</font>

<font size="3">in an irresistible attraction. -</font>

<font size="3">                                              Mother, you have no answer?</font>

<font size="3">I sense your embarrassment piercing these dark layers</font>

<font size="3">and touching all my limbs without any words,</font>

<font size="3">closing my eyes. Let it be then -</font>

<font size="3">you don't have to explain why you cast me aside.</font>

<font size="3">A mother's love is God's first gift on this earth;</font>

<font size="3">why that sacred jewel you had to snatch</font>

<font size="3">from your own child is a question you may choose</font>

<font size="3">not to answer! But tell me then:</font>

<font size="3">why have you come to take me back again?</font>

<font size="3">Kunti:</font>

<font size="3">Child, let your reprimands</font>

<font size="3">like a hundred thunderclaps rend this heart of mine</font>

<font size="3">into a hundred pieces. That I'd cast you aside</font>

<font size="3">is a curse that hounds me, which is why</font>

<font size="3">my heart is childless even with five dear sons,</font>

<font size="3">why it is you that my arms go seeking in this world,</font>

<font size="3">flapping and flailing. It is for that deprived child</font>

<font size="3">that my heart lights a lamp, and by burning itself</font>

<font size="3">pays its homage to the Maker of this universe.</font>

<font size="3">Today I count myself fortunate</font>

<font size="3">that I have managed to see you. When your mouth</font>

<font size="3">hadn't yet uttered a word, I did commit</font>

<font size="3">a horrendous crime. Son, with that same mouth</font>

<font size="3">forgive your bad mother. Let that forgiveness burn</font>

<font size="3">fiercer than any rebukes within my breast,</font>

<font size="3">reduce my sins to ashes and make me pure!</font>

<font size="3">Karna:</font>

<font size="3">O Mother, give - give me the dust of your feet,</font>

<font size="3">and take my tears!</font>

<font size="3">Kunti:</font>

<font size="3">                                  Son, I did not come</font>

<font size="3">simply in the happy hope of clutching you to my breast,</font>

<font size="3">but to take you back where you by right belong.</font>

<font size="3">You are not a charioteer's son, but of royal birth -</font>

<font size="3">so cast aside the insults that have been your lot</font>

<font size="3">and come where they all are - your five brothers.</font>

<font size="3">Karna:</font>

<font size="3">But Mother, I am a charioteer's son,</font>

<font size="3">and Radha's my mother - glory greater than that</font>

<font size="3">I have none. Let the Pandavs be Pandavs, the Kauravs</font>

<font size="3">Kauravs - I envy nobody.</font>

<font size="3">Kunti:</font>

<font size="3">                                  With the puissance of your arms</font>

<font size="3">recover the kingdom that's your own, my son.</font>

<font size="3">Judhisthir will cool you, moving a white fan;</font>

<font size="3">Bhim will hold up your umbrella; Arjun the hero</font>

<font size="3">will drive your chariot; Dhaumya the priest</font>

<font size="3">will chant Vedic mantras; and you, vanquisher of foes,</font>

<font size="3">will live with your kinsmen, sole ruler in your kingdom,</font>

<font size="3">sitting on your jewelled throne, sharing power with none.</font>

<font size="3">Karna:</font>

<font size="3">Throne, indeed! To one who's just refused the maternal bond</font>

<font size="3">are you offering, Mother, assurances of a kingdom?</font>

<font size="3">The riches from which you once disinherited me</font>

<font size="3">cannot be returned - it's beyond your powers.</font>

<font size="3">When I was born, Mother, from me you tore</font>

<font size="3">mother, brothers, royal family - all at one go.</font>

<font size="3">If today I cheat my foster-mother, her of charioteer caste,</font>

<font size="3">and boldly address as my own mother a royal materfamilias,</font>

<font size="3">if I snap the ties that bind me to the lord</font>

<font size="3">of the Kuru clan, and lust after a royal throne,</font>

<font size="3">then fie on me!</font>

<font size="3">Kunti:</font>

<font size="3">                                  Blessed are you, my son, for you are</font>

<font size="3">truly heroic. Alas, Dharma, how stern your justice is!</font>

<font size="3">Who knew, alas, that day</font>

<font size="3">when I forsook a tiny, helpless child,</font>

<font size="3">that from somewhere he would gain a hero's powers,</font>

<font size="3">return one day along a darkened path,</font>

<font size="3">and with his own cruel hands hurl weapons at those</font>

<font size="3">who are his brothers, born of the same mother!</font>

<font size="3">What a curse this is!</font>

<font size="3">Karna:</font>

<font size="3">                                  Mother, don't be afraid.</font>

<font size="3">Let me predict: it's the Pandavs who will win.</font>

<font size="3">On the panel of this night's gloom I can clearly read</font>

<font size="3">before my eyes the dire results of war:</font>

<font size="3">legible in starlight. This quiet, unruffled hour</font>

<font size="3">from the infinite sky a music drifts to my ears:</font>

<font size="3">of effort without victory, sweat of work without hope -</font>

<font size="3">I can see the end, full of peace and emptiness.</font>

<font size="3">The side that is going to lose -</font>

<font size="3">please don't ask me to desert that side.</font>

<font size="3">Let Pandu's children win, and become kings,</font>

<font size="3">let me stay with the losers, those whose hopes will be dashed.</font>

<font size="3">The night of my birth you left me upon the earth:</font>

<font size="3">nameless, homeless. In the same way today</font>

<font size="3">be ruthless, Mother, and just abandon me:</font>

<font size="3">leave me to my defeat, infamous, lustreless.</font>

<font size="3">Only this blessing grant me before you leave:</font>

<font size="3">may greed for victory, for fame, or for a kingdom</font>

<font size="3">never deflect me from a hero's path and salvation.</font>

<font size="3">Translated by Ketaki Kushari Dyson</font>

<font size="3">[Spring 2000]</font>

This is y Tagore is Tagore...
How brilliantly, he had brought out Karna's pain...n even Kunti's...

Although, if I am not wrong, Kunti's intentions were not completely pure, I love this narration n the way Tagore brought out the emotions...

Brahmaputra IF-Sizzlerz

Joined: 12 February 2012
Posts: 13307

Posted: 23 May 2015 at 7:20am | IP Logged
Amrita,   thanks a lot for the compliment. Shivaji Sawant should be applauded for his language. MJ has nothing more than beautiful language. And honeslty, it repeats same things a lot which I dont like. He actually did a bad job as an author as he convinced people to believe in lies. Of couse he added a lot of lies in it. I cannot accept anything that appears stupid to me, even if that is about my favourites. I dont think we need stories to justify what Draupadi did. She did & respect her for what she was. Why need justification for all? Justifiction is never needed actually. Those who like her will surely need no justicfication at all. And those who don't, will not consider whatever you say because they just dont want to see her as she was. It is their choice to remain foolish. Let them be. Enjoy that na? Dont spoil it.LOL And still you can give justification if you wanna kill free time.Wink

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Brahmaputra IF-Sizzlerz

Joined: 12 February 2012
Posts: 13307

Posted: 23 May 2015 at 7:29am | IP Logged
I don't like Karna Kunti poem by Tagore as it shows Kunti in a bad light. (no offense to Kunti haters, for god sake). Also, I never felt sympathy for whatever happened to Karna, honestly. When it is very clear that under which circumstances she had to abandon Karna continuously, I don't think she should be criticised for that. All those who are ready with tamaatars & andaas, remember, they are very costly these days and read MB please. I am in no mood to write an essay on Kunti.
amritat IF-Dazzler

Joined: 16 March 2011
Posts: 4046

Posted: 23 May 2015 at 7:46am | IP Logged
Originally posted by CaptainSpark


Yes man.. I really wish he did! Same old Karna LOL

And @bold - I always say moment we say karna, atleast in front of Bengalis, comes Tagore for his ONE poemLOLPeople keep on proving my point, Tagore should atleast be given 50% credit for makin Karna the KARNA THE GREAT!

And Madhushan Dutta should be given almost more than half the credit for Bengalis having this urge to workship villians, and think.. they are not actually wrong.

OKay now I should stop or else people will accuse me for bashing Tagore and Dutta ROFL it or not but Karna is the most popular character from Mahabharat after Lord Krishna...not just in Bengal but in the country...And that is quite justified...
Any character that is tragic or has hints of tragedy will always garner more attention from the masses...
I dont have anything against this...
The only two problems I have with Karna's excessive popularity is most people worship Karna for the wrong facts that have been propagated n promoted by Shivaji Sawant's novel, Kashi Dashi Mahabharat n other works on Mahabharat...
Few like Jamy, Watcher n Sabhayata love Karna because of the RIGHT reasons...I just wish this false image is corrected n people accept his flaws as well, instead of considering him as a white person...Karna, Arjun, Draupadi, Kunti...none of them were white...
Second problem, I have is, while glorifying Karna...Kunti is dragged...with Kunti, Arjun is dragged...with Arjun, Draupadi is dragged...n Bhishma, Drone, Kripacharya, Bheema...even Lord Krishna is dragged n put down, on account of Karna...
This is wat I detest...
It is true that all these characters had hurt Karna with their words or actions at sometime or the other...but Karna was no saint either...He had retaliated quite often with the same harshness...Every character has some good n bad side side...
Blindness in favouritism is wat makes me Karna-phobic, if not a hater...

As for Tagore...well he had written 'Gandharir Abedon', 'Chitrangada' n another poem that metaphorically describes Draupadi's Vastraharan...So, it's difficult to say, whose fan he was...

As for Michael Madhusudan Dutta...I am a BIG fan of his...
He showed the world a different way of looking at the age-old epics...but he did not do to Ram, wat modern authors on Duryodhan do to Lord Krishna or the Pandavas...
This man was a genius...
From wat I have heard, Michael Madhusudan was extremely Anglicised...He had written a novel named 'Captive Lady' in English but his English-loving self was extremely heart-broken when that novel was disregarded...
So, he decided to write in his mother-tongue n came up with a masterpiece like 'Meghnad Bodh Kabyo'...

The reason y he wrote from the perspective of the villain is something like...India, under British rule was going through revolutionary stage...Indians were fighting back for their land n honour...
Thus the poet came up with the poem, with the idea, that if, Indians who are fighting for defending their motherland fromforeigners are being hailed as heroes n the British as the villains...then y is Meghnad not considered a hero...
He, too was fighting to defend his country from a 'foreigner' Ram...

This is how...the poem came into being...or so I was told by my Bengali teacher...

Sorry for the gyaan... LOL

Neither Tagore nor Madhusudan Dutta may have imagined how pathetic the 21st Century people will be... LOL
And they never insulted the Ps or Ram in their work, like modern fans do... LOL
amritat IF-Dazzler

Joined: 16 March 2011
Posts: 4046

Posted: 23 May 2015 at 8:10am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Brahmaputra

I don't like Karna Kunti poem by Tagore as it shows Kunti in a bad light. (no offense to Kunti haters, for god sake). Also, I never felt sympathy for whatever happened to Karna, honestly. When it is very clear that under which circumstances she had to abandon Karna continuously, I don't think she should be criticised for that. All those who are ready with tamaatars & andaas, remember, they are very costly these days and read MB please. I am in no mood to write an essay on Kunti.

Jamy...I dont think Tagore's poem demeans Kunti..In fact, I was going through some articles which had discussed how Tagore had taked creative liberty fotr showing her as a very maternal woman...whereas in the epic, she clearly had motives before going to Karna...

And I agree...I just detest this Kunti bashing, especially if these come from women...
Granted that the society was different then...n abandoning a child is a crime...but no mother gives up her child in pleasure...She was too young n the social pressures were there...
It's easy to point fingers at her...but being in her shoes is very difficult...
The place where Kunti screwed up the thing was when she went to Karna at such an impecceble time...

She had sent spies to see Karna growing up with Adhiratha, even felt happy when Karna was crowned as the King, n told the Pandavas the truth after Karna's death when it was not required...She had no need to disclose n put her image ay stake but she still did...although she put her sons in guilt, which would tear them till their death...

The only 2 things for which I have grudge against her was sharing of Draupadi( which I feel was intentional) n going to Karna before war...Apart from this, I actually sympathize with Kunti...

As fot Draupadi...apart from being brutally honest n too forthright...I dont see Draupadi ever planning or plotting against any innocent soul or killing innocent people like the men of the epic... need for any justification for her... LOL

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CaptainSpark IF-Rockerz

Joined: 03 January 2014
Posts: 9868

Posted: 24 May 2015 at 8:55am | IP Logged
Okay. Will answer every line one by one... I am putting my response in Georgia font...
Originally posted by Brahmaputra

Brishti, you did not sound harsh. It is clearly written that Drona out of his partiality for Arjuna, denied Brahmastra for Karna. That was neither Karna's mistake nor because of he was incapable of learning it. If this event is true (I dont believe it happened as you know) Drona knew Karna was capable but he denied knowledge for Karna because he loved Arjuna more. Drona did what no guru should have done. If you believe Karna was Drona's student, this very partiality was the reason Karna did not like Arjuna though Arjuna was innocent in it. Drona did let a small child's jealousy grow into hatredness when he as a guru was supposed to correct Karna there. But as I dont think Karna was nowhere Drona's student, what Drona did to him is not a matter to me.
Where is that clearly written? There are high chances of you being correct because Drona was partial to Arjuna...Eklavya's incident is a clear proof of that... But can u post the citations which prove that... for my help. Also how do you know Drona knew he was capable? What proves that? And I believe that its not coz of Drona Karna didn't like Arjuna but simple for the fact that he DID THINGS which made Drona love him... Its not like his partiality towards Ashwathama.. Ashwi is incapable of that love.. he got that as Drona was partial to his son.. Arjuna's case was not the same. He was an excellent student. And Karna did not make any effort to improve himself better than HIMSELF in Drona's eyes, but only concentrated on hating Arjuna...
Originally posted by Brahmaputra

Karna did not jump in Rangabhoomi when Drona announced Arjuna as the best archer. In fact, Drona did not announce any such thing at all. Trust me, Karna entered only after everyone stopped appreciating what Arjuna did. ("And, O Bharata, when the exhibition had well-nigh ended, the excitement of the spectators had cooled, and the sounds of instruments had died out there was heard proceeding from the gate, the slapping of arms, betokening might and strength, and even like unto the roar of the thunder - KMG, Adi parva 137). In fact, he entered by clapping for what Arjuna did a few minutes ago. He was not clapping for himself, surely.LOL If you read Rangabhoomi event, it is clear that Karna was a stranger to all those who were present there. (they all exclaim who is he who is he) Had Karna been a student with Ps & Ks, that would not have been the case. That is one reason why I say he was not a student of Drona. No one recognised him. And yes; he did not say he was better than Arjuna or Arjuna was less than him. What he said was "I shall show whatever you did, faster than you & you will be amazed by it". He was just being enthusiastic to show his skills. Else why did he tell Arjuna that "you will be amazed by it?". That was more a friendly dialogue, I think. He was very cool when he said it, he is not said to be in anger and all then.
Then maybe your interpretation of a character's feelings and mine are different.. But I DEFINITELY don't think they are in any way friendly! Shocked And now coming to the clapping... as for that is concerned haven't you seen Hindi films.. that is like symbolism of sarcasm! I cant remember a scene where one character enters clapping for another.. but this is very common. Its just mocking of the person you are clapping for and that is exactly what Karna does... This is plain mockery!
Now, okay, even if Karna came in after Arjuna finished his turn.. Just as you posted the citation.. Come on Jamy.. this is making me laugh..! How can u say such a stupid thing? You try to be logical and explain.. atleast I feel that... I couldn't believe you are saying this.. Karna never meant to say Arjuna was any less or he was better? See, there are three comparative degrees. Good, better and best. So if Arjuna is fast, and Karna said I will show the same thing FASTER! He is plain comparing. You will have to accept this.. its a plain fact... People love to compare. That is the reason why GAMES, any ANY game, war, anything between TWO parties/individuals were born. This theory is very very much accepted AFAIK. The birth of game was because people love to compare. So two people doing the same thing, is not AT ALL without comparison unless they are two madmen trying to play some game in the roads. So obviously Karna was trying to mock Arjuna and prove himself better than him. Even if the Gurukul part never existed.. its pretty clear Karna wasn't in any way "friendly."

Originally posted by Brahmaputra

Karna never said he wanted to prove superior to Arjuna. I dont remember any such dialogue.
If everything would have to be proven by citations and dialogues, then there would be no value of literature. The fact that Karna wanted to be superior to Arjuna is pretty clear from the 18 parva epic. Now don't tell me you want citations as this fact CANNOT be proven with a dialogue. It is typical understanding and analysis of a character. Not necessary your analysis will be same from the same epic which you and I take as the source...
Originally posted by Brahmaputra

And yes he said many times that he wished to be accepted for what he was. I dont think that is needed to be taken as against Arjuna. Neither Arjuna ever said anything like that about Karna. What Karna always said he was never given a chance to prove his skill.
A good warrior should stop moaning about what he got and what not and take life as it comes. A good warrior I said. This is not possible in today's world. I am talking in context of those days. Today there is politics, and many other things which play a part in how much chances an individual gets.. so don't get me wrong. History is not that big a cheater to forget anyone capable. Drona tried to wipe out Eklavya, and he plainly accepted that. But History did not forget him. With dronas's name comes Eklavya's.
Originally posted by Brahmaputra

And the only person capable of fighing him was Arjuna.
Being over-confident is not a good trait... acc to me.
Originally posted by Brahmaputra

Karna was never afraid of beind defeated, he said it many times. So queation of defeating or killing do not arise.
I didn't get you... He never was afraid of being defeated fair enough. But his aim if to defeat others (read: Arjuna) so the question of defeating and killing arises.
Originally posted by Brahmaputra

But what important to him was to show what he knew or what he was capable of. He tells that to Krishna also that he never cared outcomes of what he did, he cared only what he did & accepted whatever the result is.
(that is what Krishna also told Arjuna - dont think about the result, do what you suppose to do; isn't it?) How can we take that as he wanted to kill or defeat Arjuna? He wanted to show his skill whether he got defeated or not. Showing his skill was more important to Karna, not Arjuna. I dont think he needed to defeat or kill to show his skill. I guess it is better to read Karna Krishna conversation than reading what I write.
Will surely check out. But that does not give me any reason to be a Karna admirer as one KArna Krishna conversation does not change his whole character. It does not make sense saying I did that I never wanted this... when you are NOT a good human being. End of the day that is what matters TO ME... History definitely does not care about who is good. That is why it remembers all the characters.. be it Karna or Arjuna..Bheem or Duryodhana.. Dusshashana or Sahdev...

Edited by CaptainSpark - 24 May 2015 at 9:00am

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CaptainSpark IF-Rockerz

Joined: 03 January 2014
Posts: 9868

Posted: 24 May 2015 at 9:03am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Brahmaputra

Originally posted by Urmila11

In rangabhumi, Karna threatened Arjun. See this citation:

replied, 'This arena is meant for all, not for thee alone, O Phalguna! They are
kings who are superior in energy; and verily the Kshatriya regardeth might and
might alone. What need of altercation which is the exercise of the weak? O
Bharata, speak then in arrows until with arrows I strike off thy head today
before the preceptor himself!'

When you quote make it sure that you dont eat away some part of it.

"Vaisampayana continued, 'Arjuna, after this, deeming himself disgraced, said unto Karna stationed amidst the brothers like unto a cliff, 'That path which the unwelcome intruder and the uninvited talker cometh to, shall be thine, O Karna, for thou shall be slain by me.' Karna replied, 'This arena is meant for all, not for thee alone, O Phalguna! They are kings who are superior in energy; and verily the Kshatriya regardeth might and might alone.What need of altercation which is the exercise of the weak? O Bharata, speak then in arrows until with arrows I strike off thy head today before the preceptor himself!'
If somebody is going to tell me : I will kill you or even something like I will punch you hard...
Then I am not as good as Gandhiji to say, Please do. I will say, "Dare you. I will kill you before that."

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CaptainSpark IF-Rockerz

Joined: 03 January 2014
Posts: 9868

Posted: 24 May 2015 at 9:06am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Brahmaputra

I don't like Karna Kunti poem by Tagore as it shows Kunti in a bad light. (no offense to Kunti haters, for god sake). Also, I never felt sympathy for whatever happened to Karna, honestly. When it is very clear that under which circumstances she had to abandon Karna continuously, I don't think she should be criticised for that. All those who are ready with tamaatars & andaas, remember, they are very costly these days and read MB please. I am in no mood to write an essay on Kunti.
Jamy, just as another forum member, I am telling you edit your postROFL 
Otherwise you will be bashed by people for  so called Tagore Bashing. ROFL
Somehow you are right by the way... and that is another reason you should edit. ROFL
Sorry but I cant help laughing LOL
Actually the reason I like the poem is because of the treatment.. The language, His expressions, and as a poem on whole KK Sangbad is excellent. But I totally agree with you when you talk about the message the poem is giving.. it is definitely demeaning Kunti.. Atleast my understanding tells me that...So I definitely DO NOT agree with the views of the poem..

Edited by CaptainSpark - 24 May 2015 at 9:14am

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