Dharamkshetra discussion thread 2 - Page 21

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amritat

@amritat

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Posted: 8 years ago

Originally posted by: Brahmaputra
I dont get it what is so much there in Karna's life to be shown in a daily soap. I am not being anti Karna here. For a film, it is okay. There is enough. But for a daily show, there is nothing much written about his life in MB. He comes, says something sharp or sweet, fights & goes. This is what MB has about him. I read that the show will be based on MJ. In that case, it is better not to watch. Trust me, that book is good for nothing. I hate it to the core coz many people believe what stupidity written in it is the ultimate truth about Karna. As you said, that forum will have same old debates which have became boring for me now. How long we shall debate on same things without reaching at any point? 😆. Honeslty, there is nothing left to discuss about Karna than what did in MB forum. I guess many Karnalis will turn against the show if it shows stupid things in name of Karna's life.

Jamy...this is y u are my favourite Karna fan... 😃

In fact u are the first Karna fan who didnt like Shivaji Sawant's novel...I must say, the author deserves a lot of claps for being so convincing...y else would people believe everything in the novel?
It is full of factual errors but the author(from wat I have heard) has done a brilliant job, as far as his writing is concerned...everyone I know who has read the novel has gone into a trance about Karna... 😆
You are the only one who has remained in senses...

I hope somone could come up with a similar novel on Draupadi...justifying every action of her with a folktale... 😉...creating fake characters n creative incidents to justify her thirst for justice...😈

I wouldnt mind a similar novel on Arjun n Kunti too...

And dont worry...I dont think Karnalis will have issues with this serial... 😆
In fact a lot of Karnalis n Karnalas will get added to the already exploding fan base...Edited by amritat - 8 years ago

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Brahmaputra

@Brahmaputra

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+ 2

Posted: 8 years ago

Brishti, you did not sound harsh. It is clearly written that Drona out of his partiality for Arjuna, denied Brahmastra for Karna. That was neither Karna's mistake nor because of he was incapable of learning it. If this event is true (I dont believe it happened as you know) Drona knew Karna was capable but he denied knowledge for Karna because he loved Arjuna more. Drona did what no guru should have done. If you believe Karna was Drona's student, this very partiality was the reason Karna did not like Arjuna though Arjuna was innocent in it. Drona did let a small child's jealousy grow into hatredness when he as a guru was supposed to correct Karna there. But as I dont think Karna was nowhere Drona's student, what Drona did to him is not a matter to me.
Karna did not jump in Rangabhoomi when Drona announced Arjuna as the best archer. In fact, Drona did not announce any such thing at all. Trust me, Karna entered only after everyone stopped appreciating what Arjuna did. ("And, O Bharata, when the exhibition had well-nigh ended, the excitement of the spectators had cooled, and the sounds of instruments had died out there was heard proceeding from the gate, the slapping of arms, betokening might and strength, and even like unto the roar of the thunder - KMG, Adi parva 137). In fact, he entered by clapping for what Arjuna did a few minutes ago. He was not clapping for himself, surely.😆 If you read Rangabhoomi event, it is clear that Karna was a stranger to all those who were present there. (they all exclaim who is he who is he) Had Karna been a student with Ps & Ks, that would not have been the case. That is one reason why I say he was not a student of Drona. No one recognised him. And yes; he did not say he was better than Arjuna or Arjuna was less than him. What he said was "I shall show whatever you did, faster than you & you will be amazed by it". He was just being enthusiastic to show his skills. Else why did he tell Arjuna that "you will be amazed by it?". That was more a friendly dialogue, I think. He was very cool when he said it, he is not said to be in anger and all then.
Karna never said he wanted to prove superior to Arjuna. I dont remember any such dialogue. And yes he said many times that he wished to be accepted for what he was. I dont think that is needed to be taken as against Arjuna. Neither Arjuna ever said anything like that about Karna. What Karna always said he was never given a chance to prove his skill. And the only person capable of fighing him was Arjuna. Karna was never afraid of beind defeated, he said it many times. So queation of defeating or killing do not arise. But what important to him was to show what he knew or what he was capable of. He tells that to Krishna also that he never cared outcomes of what he did, he cared only what he did & accepted whatever the result is. (that is what Krishna also told Arjuna - dont think about the result, do what you suppose to do; isn't it?) How can we take that as he wanted to kill or defeat Arjuna? He wanted to show his skill whether he got defeated or not. Showing his skill was more important to Karna, not Arjuna. I dont think he needed to defeat or kill to show his skill. I guess it is better to read Karna Krishna conversation than reading what I write.Edited by Brahmaputra - 8 years ago

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Brahmaputra

@Brahmaputra

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+ 2

Posted: 8 years ago

Originally posted by: Urmila11
In rangabhumi, Karna threatened Arjun. See this citation:

Karna
replied, 'This arena is meant for all, not for thee alone, O Phalguna! They are
kings who are superior in energy; and verily the Kshatriya regardeth might and
might alone. What need of altercation which is the exercise of the weak? O
Bharata, speak then in arrows until with arrows I strike off thy head today
before the preceptor himself!'

When you quote make it sure that you dont eat away some part of it.

"Vaisampayana continued, 'Arjuna, after this, deeming himself disgraced, said unto Karna stationed amidst the brothers like unto a cliff, 'That path which the unwelcome intruder and the uninvited talker cometh to, shall be thine, O Karna, for thou shall be slain by me.' Karna replied, 'This arena is meant for all, not for thee alone, O Phalguna! They are kings who are superior in energy; and verily the Kshatriya regardeth might and might alone.What need of altercation which is the exercise of the weak? O Bharata, speak then in arrows until with arrows I strike off thy head today before the preceptor himself!'

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amritat

@amritat

IF-Sizzlerz

Posted: 8 years ago

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark
Here you go, Durga! The only work on Karna which made me cry. I CRIED being an ardent Karna hater, This one is a classic! Must read...

Karna Kunti Sangbad by Rabindranath Tagore

Rabindranath Tagore

Dialogue between Karna and Kunti

Karna:

On sacred Jahnavi's shore I say my prayers

to the evening sun. Karna is my name,

son of Adhirath the charioteer, and Radha is my mother.

That's who I am. Lady, who are you?

Kunti:

Child, in the first dawn of your life

it was I who introduced you to this wide world.

That's me, and today I've cast aside

all embarrassment, to tell you who I am.

Karna:

Respected lady, the light of your lowered eyes

melts my heart, as the sun's rays melt

mountain snows. Your voice

pierces my ears as a voice from a previous birth

and stirs strange pain. Tell me then,

by what mystery's chain is my birth linked

to you, unknown woman?

Kunti:

 Oh, be patient,

child, for a moment! Let the sun-god first

slide to his rest, and let evening's darkness

thicken round us. - Now let me tell you, warrior,

I am Kunti.

Karna:

 You are Kunti! The mother of Arjun!

Kunti:

Arjun's mother indeed! But son,

don't hate me for that. How I still recall

the day of the tournament when you, a young bachelor,

slowly entered the arena in Hastina-city

as the newly rising sun enters the margin

of the eastern sky, still pricked out with stars!

Of all the women watching from behind a screen

who was she, bereft of speech, of luck,

who felt within her tortured breast the pangs

of hungering love, a thousand she-snake fangs?

Whose eyes covered your limbs with blessing's kisses?

It was Arjun's mother! When Kripa advanced

and smiling, asked you to announce your father's name,

saying, He who is not of a royal family born

has no right to challenge Arjun at all,' -

then you, speechless, red with shame, face lowered,

just stood there, and she whose bosom your gleam

of embarrassment burnt like fire: who was that

unlucky woman? Arjun's mother it was!

Blessed is that lad Durjodhan, who thereupon

at once crowned you prince of Anga. Yes, I praise him!

And as you were crowned, the tears streamed from my eyes

to rush towards you, to overflow your head,

when, making his way into the arena,

in entered Adhirath the charioteer, beside himself

with joy, and you, too, in your royal gear

in the midst of the curious crowds milling around

bowed your only-just-anointed head, and saluted

the feet of the old charioteer, calling him Father.

Cruelly, contemptuously they smiled -

the friends of the Pandavs; and right at that instant

she who blessed you as a hero, O you jewel amongst heroes,

I am that woman, the mother of Arjun.

Karna:

I salute you, noble lady. A royal mother you are:

so why are you here alone? This is a field of battle,

and I am the commander of the Kaurav army.

Kunti:

 Son, I've come to beg a favour of you -

Don't turn me away empty-handed.

Karna:

 A favour? From me!

Barring my manhood, and what dharma requires,

the rest will be at your feet if you so desire.

Kunti:

I have come to take you away.

Karna:

 And where will you take me?

Kunti:

To my thirsty bosom - to my maternal lap.

Karna:

A lucky woman you are, blessed with five sons,

and I am just a petty princeling, without pedigree -

where would you find room for me?

Kunti:

 Right at the top!

I would place you above all my other sons,

for you are the eldest.

Karna:

 By what right 

would I enter that sanctum? Tell me how

from those already cheated of empire

I could possibly take a portion of that wealth,

a mother's love, which is fully theirs.

A mother's heart cannot be gambled away

nor be defeated by force. It's a divine gift.

Kunti:

 O my son,

with a divine right indeed you had one day 

come to this lap - and by that same right

return again, with glory; don't worry at all -

take your own place amongst all your brothers,

on my maternal lap.

Karna:

 As if in a dream

I hear your voice, honoured lady. Look, darkness has

engulfed the entire horizon, swallowed the four quarters,

and the river has fallen silent. You have whisked me off

to some enchanted world, some forgotten home,

to the very dawn of awareness. Your words

like age-old truths touch my fascinated heart.

It's as if my own inchoate infancy,

the very obscurity of my mother's womb

was encircling me today. O royal mother,

loving woman, - be this real, or a dream, -

come place your right hand on my brow, my chin

for just a moment. Indeed I had heard

that I had been abandoned by my natural mother.

How often in the depth of night I've had this dream:

that slowly, softly my mother had come to see me,

and I've felt so bleak, and beseeched her in tears,

Mother, remove your veil, let me see your face,' -

and at once the figure has vanished, tearing apart

my greedy thirsty dream. That very dream -

has it come today in the guise of the Pandav mother

this evening, on the battlefield, by the Bhagirathi?

Behold, lady, on the other bank, in the Pandav camp

the lights come on, and on this bank, not far,

in the Kaurav stables a hundred thousand horses

stamp their hooves. Tomorrow morning

the great battle begins. Why tonight

did I have to hear from Arjun's mother's throat

my own mother's voice? Why did my name

ring in her mouth with such exquisite music -

so much so that suddenly my heart

rushes towards the five Pandavs, calling them brothers'?

Kunti:

Then come on, son, come along with me.

Karna:

Yes, Mother, I'll go with you. I won't ask questions -

without a doubt, without a worry, I'll go.

Lady, you are my mother! And your call

has awakened my soul - no longer can I hear

the drums of battle, victory's conch-shells.

The violence of war, a hero's fame, triumph and defeat -

all seem false. Take me. Where should I go?

Kunti:

 There, on the other bank,

where the lamps burn in the still tents

on the pale sands.

Karna:

 And there a motherless son

shall find his mother for ever! There the pole star

shall wake all night in your lovely generous

eyes. Lady, one more time

say I am your son.

Kunti:

 My son!

Karna:

 Then why

did you discard me so ingloriously -

no family honour, no mother's eyes to watch me -

to the mercy of this blind, unknown world? Why did you

let me float away on the current of contempt

so irreversibly, banishing me from my brothers?

You put a distance between Arjun and me,

whence from childhood a subtle invisible bond

of bitter enmity pulls us to each other

in an irresistible attraction. -

 Mother, you have no answer?

I sense your embarrassment piercing these dark layers

and touching all my limbs without any words,

closing my eyes. Let it be then -

you don't have to explain why you cast me aside.

A mother's love is God's first gift on this earth;

why that sacred jewel you had to snatch

from your own child is a question you may choose

not to answer! But tell me then:

why have you come to take me back again?

Kunti:

Child, let your reprimands

like a hundred thunderclaps rend this heart of mine

into a hundred pieces. That I'd cast you aside

is a curse that hounds me, which is why

my heart is childless even with five dear sons,

why it is you that my arms go seeking in this world,

flapping and flailing. It is for that deprived child

that my heart lights a lamp, and by burning itself

pays its homage to the Maker of this universe.

Today I count myself fortunate

that I have managed to see you. When your mouth

hadn't yet uttered a word, I did commit

a horrendous crime. Son, with that same mouth

forgive your bad mother. Let that forgiveness burn

fiercer than any rebukes within my breast,

reduce my sins to ashes and make me pure!

Karna:

O Mother, give - give me the dust of your feet,

and take my tears!

Kunti:

 Son, I did not come

simply in the happy hope of clutching you to my breast,

but to take you back where you by right belong.

You are not a charioteer's son, but of royal birth -

so cast aside the insults that have been your lot

and come where they all are - your five brothers.

Karna:

But Mother, I am a charioteer's son,

and Radha's my mother - glory greater than that

I have none. Let the Pandavs be Pandavs, the Kauravs

Kauravs - I envy nobody.

Kunti:

 With the puissance of your arms

recover the kingdom that's your own, my son.

Judhisthir will cool you, moving a white fan;

Bhim will hold up your umbrella; Arjun the hero

will drive your chariot; Dhaumya the priest

will chant Vedic mantras; and you, vanquisher of foes,

will live with your kinsmen, sole ruler in your kingdom,

sitting on your jewelled throne, sharing power with none.

Karna:

Throne, indeed! To one who's just refused the maternal bond

are you offering, Mother, assurances of a kingdom?

The riches from which you once disinherited me

cannot be returned - it's beyond your powers.

When I was born, Mother, from me you tore

mother, brothers, royal family - all at one go.

If today I cheat my foster-mother, her of charioteer caste,

and boldly address as my own mother a royal materfamilias,

if I snap the ties that bind me to the lord

of the Kuru clan, and lust after a royal throne,

then fie on me!

Kunti:

 Blessed are you, my son, for you are

truly heroic. Alas, Dharma, how stern your justice is!

Who knew, alas, that day

when I forsook a tiny, helpless child,

that from somewhere he would gain a hero's powers,

return one day along a darkened path,

and with his own cruel hands hurl weapons at those

who are his brothers, born of the same mother!

What a curse this is!

Karna:

 Mother, don't be afraid.

Let me predict: it's the Pandavs who will win.

On the panel of this night's gloom I can clearly read

before my eyes the dire results of war:

legible in starlight. This quiet, unruffled hour

from the infinite sky a music drifts to my ears:

of effort without victory, sweat of work without hope -

I can see the end, full of peace and emptiness.

The side that is going to lose -

please don't ask me to desert that side.

Let Pandu's children win, and become kings,

let me stay with the losers, those whose hopes will be dashed.

The night of my birth you left me upon the earth:

nameless, homeless. In the same way today

be ruthless, Mother, and just abandon me:

leave me to my defeat, infamous, lustreless.

Only this blessing grant me before you leave:

may greed for victory, for fame, or for a kingdom

never deflect me from a hero's path and salvation.

Translated by Ketaki Kushari Dyson

[Spring 2000]

This is y Tagore is Tagore...
How brilliantly, he had brought out Karna's pain...n even Kunti's...

Although, if I am not wrong, Kunti's intentions were not completely pure, I love this narration n the way Tagore brought out the emotions...

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Brahmaputra

@Brahmaputra

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+ 2

Posted: 8 years ago

Amrita, thanks a lot for the compliment. Shivaji Sawant should be applauded for his language. MJ has nothing more than beautiful language. And honeslty, it repeats same things a lot which I dont like. He actually did a bad job as an author as he convinced people to believe in lies. Of couse he added a lot of lies in it. I cannot accept anything that appears stupid to me, even if that is about my favourites. I dont think we need stories to justify what Draupadi did. She did & respect her for what she was. Why need justification for all? Justifiction is never needed actually. Those who like her will surely need no justicfication at all. And those who don't, will not consider whatever you say because they just dont want to see her as she was. It is their choice to remain foolish. Let them be. Enjoy that na? Dont spoil it.😆 And still you can give justification if you wanna kill free time.😉

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Brahmaputra

@Brahmaputra

IF-Sizzlerz

+ 2

Posted: 8 years ago

I don't like Karna Kunti poem by Tagore as it shows Kunti in a bad light. (no offense to Kunti haters, for god sake). Also, I never felt sympathy for whatever happened to Karna, honestly. When it is very clear that under which circumstances she had to abandon Karna continuously, I don't think she should be criticised for that. All those who are ready with tamaatars & andaas, remember, they are very costly these days and read MB please. I am in no mood to write an essay on Kunti.

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amritat

@amritat

IF-Sizzlerz

Posted: 8 years ago

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

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<div>

Yes man.. I really wish he did! Same old Karna 😆

And @bold - I always say moment we say karna, atleast in front of Bengalis, comes Tagore for his ONE poem😆People keep on proving my point, Tagore should atleast be given 50% credit for makin Karna the KARNA THE GREAT!

And Madhushan Dutta should be given almost more than half the credit for Bengalis having this urge to workship villians, and think.. they are not actually wrong.

OKay now I should stop or else people will accuse me for bashing Tagore and Dutta 🤣

Brishti...like it or not but Karna is the most popular character from Mahabharat after Lord Krishna...not just in Bengal but in the country...And that is quite justified...
Any character that is tragic or has hints of tragedy will always garner more attention from the masses...
I dont have anything against this...
The only two problems I have with Karna's excessive popularity is most people worship Karna for the wrong facts that have been propagated n promoted by Shivaji Sawant's novel, Kashi Dashi Mahabharat n other works on Mahabharat...
Few like Jamy, Watcher n Sabhayata love Karna because of the RIGHT reasons...I just wish this false image is corrected n people accept his flaws as well, instead of considering him as a white person...Karna, Arjun, Draupadi, Kunti...none of them were white...
Second problem, I have is, while glorifying Karna...Kunti is dragged...with Kunti, Arjun is dragged...with Arjun, Draupadi is dragged...n Bhishma, Drone, Kripacharya, Bheema...even Lord Krishna is dragged n put down, on account of Karna...
This is wat I detest...
It is true that all these characters had hurt Karna with their words or actions at sometime or the other...but Karna was no saint either...He had retaliated quite often with the same harshness...Every character has some good n bad side side...
Blindness in favouritism is wat makes me Karna-phobic, if not a hater...

As for Tagore...well he had written 'Gandharir Abedon', 'Chitrangada' n another poem that metaphorically describes Draupadi's Vastraharan...So, it's difficult to say, whose fan he was...

As for Michael Madhusudan Dutta...I am a BIG fan of his...
He showed the world a different way of looking at the age-old epics...but he did not do to Ram, wat modern authors on Duryodhan do to Lord Krishna or the Pandavas...
This man was a genius...
From wat I have heard, Michael Madhusudan was extremely Anglicised...He had written a novel named 'Captive Lady' in English but his English-loving self was extremely heart-broken when that novel was disregarded...
So, he decided to write in his mother-tongue n came up with a masterpiece like 'Meghnad Bodh Kabyo'...

The reason y he wrote from the perspective of the villain is something like...India, under British rule was going through revolutionary stage...Indians were fighting back for their land n honour...
Thus the poet came up with the poem, with the idea, that if, Indians who are fighting for defending their motherland fromforeigners are being hailed as heroes n the British as the villains...then y is Meghnad not considered a hero...
He, too was fighting to defend his country from a 'foreigner' Ram...

This is how...the poem came into being...or so I was told by my Bengali teacher...

Sorry for the gyaan... 😆

Neither Tagore nor Madhusudan Dutta may have imagined how pathetic the 21st Century people will be... 😆
And they never insulted the Ps or Ram in their work, like modern fans do... 😆

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amritat

@amritat

IF-Sizzlerz

Posted: 8 years ago

Originally posted by: Brahmaputra
I don't like Karna Kunti poem by Tagore as it shows Kunti in a bad light. (no offense to Kunti haters, for god sake). Also, I never felt sympathy for whatever happened to Karna, honestly. When it is very clear that under which circumstances she had to abandon Karna continuously, I don't think she should be criticised for that. All those who are ready with tamaatars & andaas, remember, they are very costly these days and read MB please. I am in no mood to write an essay on Kunti.

Jamy...I dont think Tagore's poem demeans Kunti..In fact, I was going through some articles which had discussed how Tagore had taked creative liberty fotr showing her as a very maternal woman...whereas in the epic, she clearly had motives before going to Karna...

And I agree...I just detest this Kunti bashing, especially if these come from women...
Granted that the society was different then...n abandoning a child is a crime...but no mother gives up her child in pleasure...She was too young n the social pressures were there...
It's easy to point fingers at her...but being in her shoes is very difficult...
The place where Kunti screwed up the thing was when she went to Karna at such an impecceble time...

She had sent spies to see Karna growing up with Adhiratha, even felt happy when Karna was crowned as the King, n told the Pandavas the truth after Karna's death when it was not required...She had no need to disclose n put her image ay stake but she still did...although she put her sons in guilt, which would tear them till their death...

The only 2 things for which I have grudge against her was sharing of Draupadi( which I feel was intentional) n going to Karna before war...Apart from this, I actually sympathize with Kunti...

As fot Draupadi...apart from being brutally honest n too forthright...I dont see Draupadi ever planning or plotting against any innocent soul or killing innocent people like the men of the epic...
So...no need for any justification for her... 😆

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Brishti Sarkar

@CaptainSpark

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+ 3

Posted: 8 years ago

Okay. Will answer every line one by one... I am putting my response in Georgia font...

Originally posted by: Brahmaputra
Brishti, you did not sound harsh. It is clearly written that Drona out of his partiality for Arjuna, denied Brahmastra for Karna. That was neither Karna's mistake nor because of he was incapable of learning it. If this event is true (I dont believe it happened as you know) Drona knew Karna was capable but he denied knowledge for Karna because he loved Arjuna more. Drona did what no guru should have done. If you believe Karna was Drona's student, this very partiality was the reason Karna did not like Arjuna though Arjuna was innocent in it. Drona did let a small child's jealousy grow into hatredness when he as a guru was supposed to correct Karna there. But as I dont think Karna was nowhere Drona's student, what Drona did to him is not a matter to me.

Where is that clearly written? There are high chances of you being correct because Drona was partial to Arjuna...Eklavya's incident is a clear proof of that... But can u post the citations which prove that... for my help. Also how do you know Drona knew he was capable? What proves that? And I believe that its not coz of Drona Karna didn't like Arjuna but simple for the fact that he DID THINGS which made Drona love him... Its not like his partiality towards Ashwathama.. Ashwi is incapable of that love.. he got that as Drona was partial to his son.. Arjuna's case was not the same. He was an excellent student. And Karna did not make any effort to improve himself better than HIMSELF in Drona's eyes, but only concentrated on hating Arjuna...

Originally posted by: Brahmaputra
Karna did not jump in Rangabhoomi when Drona announced Arjuna as the best archer. In fact, Drona did not announce any such thing at all. Trust me, Karna entered only after everyone stopped appreciating what Arjuna did. ("And, O Bharata, when the exhibition had well-nigh ended, the excitement of the spectators had cooled, and the sounds of instruments had died out there was heard proceeding from the gate, the slapping of arms, betokening might and strength, and even like unto the roar of the thunder - KMG, Adi parva 137). In fact, he entered by clapping for what Arjuna did a few minutes ago. He was not clapping for himself, surely.😆 If you read Rangabhoomi event, it is clear that Karna was a stranger to all those who were present there. (they all exclaim who is he who is he) Had Karna been a student with Ps & Ks, that would not have been the case. That is one reason why I say he was not a student of Drona. No one recognised him. And yes; he did not say he was better than Arjuna or Arjuna was less than him. What he said was "I shall show whatever you did, faster than you & you will be amazed by it". He was just being enthusiastic to show his skills. Else why did he tell Arjuna that "you will be amazed by it?". That was more a friendly dialogue, I think. He was very cool when he said it, he is not said to be in anger and all then.

Then maybe your interpretation of a character's feelings and mine are different.. But I DEFINITELY don't think they are in any way friendly! 😲 And now coming to the clapping... as for that is concerned haven't you seen Hindi films.. that is like symbolism of sarcasm! I cant remember a scene where one character enters clapping for another.. but this is very common. Its just mocking of the person you are clapping for and that is exactly what Karna does... This is plain mockery!

Now, okay, even if Karna came in after Arjuna finished his turn.. Just as you posted the citation.. Come on Jamy.. this is making me laugh..! How can u say such a stupid thing? You try to be logical and explain.. atleast I feel that... I couldn't believe you are saying this.. Karna never meant to say Arjuna was any less or he was better? See, there are three comparative degrees. Good, better and best. So if Arjuna is fast, and Karna said I will show the same thing FASTER! He is plain comparing. You will have to accept this.. its a plain fact... People love to compare. That is the reason why GAMES, any ANY game, war, anything between TWO parties/individuals were born. This theory is very very much accepted AFAIK. The birth of game was because people love to compare. So two people doing the same thing, is not AT ALL without comparison unless they are two madmen trying to play some game in the roads. So obviously Karna was trying to mock Arjuna and prove himself better than him. Even if the Gurukul part never existed.. its pretty clear Karna wasn't in any way "friendly."

Originally posted by: Brahmaputra
Karna never said he wanted to prove superior to Arjuna. I dont remember any such dialogue.

If everything would have to be proven by citations and dialogues, then there would be no value of literature. The fact that Karna wanted to be superior to Arjuna is pretty clear from the 18 parva epic. Now don't tell me you want citations as this fact CANNOT be proven with a dialogue. It is typical understanding and analysis of a character. Not necessary your analysis will be same from the same epic which you and I take as the source...

Originally posted by: Brahmaputra
And yes he said many times that he wished to be accepted for what he was. I dont think that is needed to be taken as against Arjuna. Neither Arjuna ever said anything like that about Karna. What Karna always said he was never given a chance to prove his skill.

A good warrior should stop moaning about what he got and what not and take life as it comes. A good warrior I said. This is not possible in today's world. I am talking in context of those days. Today there is politics, and many other things which play a part in how much chances an individual gets.. so don't get me wrong. History is not that big a cheater to forget anyone capable. Drona tried to wipe out Eklavya, and he plainly accepted that. But History did not forget him. With dronas's name comes Eklavya's.

Originally posted by: Brahmaputra
And the only person capable of fighing him was Arjuna.

Being over-confident is not a good trait... acc to me.

Originally posted by: Brahmaputra
Karna was never afraid of beind defeated, he said it many times. So queation of defeating or killing do not arise.

I didn't get you... He never was afraid of being defeated fair enough. But his aim if to defeat others (read: Arjuna) so the question of defeating and killing arises.

Originally posted by: Brahmaputra
But what important to him was to show what he knew or what he was capable of. He tells that to Krishna also that he never cared outcomes of what he did, he cared only what he did & accepted whatever the result is.

(that is what Krishna also told Arjuna - dont think about the result, do what you suppose to do; isn't it?) How can we take that as he wanted to kill or defeat Arjuna? He wanted to show his skill whether he got defeated or not. Showing his skill was more important to Karna, not Arjuna. I dont think he needed to defeat or kill to show his skill. I guess it is better to read Karna Krishna conversation than reading what I write.

Will surely check out. But that does not give me any reason to be a Karna admirer as one KArna Krishna conversation does not change his whole character. It does not make sense saying I did that I never wanted this... when you are NOT a good human being. End of the day that is what matters TO ME... History definitely does not care about who is good. That is why it remembers all the characters.. be it Karna or Arjuna..Bheem or Duryodhana.. Dusshashana or Sahdev...

Edited by CaptainSpark - 8 years ago

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Brishti Sarkar

@CaptainSpark

IF-Sizzlerz

+ 3

Posted: 8 years ago

Originally posted by: Brahmaputra
When you quote make it sure that you dont eat away some part of it.

"Vaisampayana continued, 'Arjuna, after this, deeming himself disgraced, said unto Karna stationed amidst the brothers like unto a cliff, 'That path which the unwelcome intruder and the uninvited talker cometh to, shall be thine, O Karna, for thou shall be slain by me.' Karna replied, 'This arena is meant for all, not for thee alone, O Phalguna! They are kings who are superior in energy; and verily the Kshatriya regardeth might and might alone.What need of altercation which is the exercise of the weak? O Bharata, speak then in arrows until with arrows I strike off thy head today before the preceptor himself!'

If somebody is going to tell me : I will kill you or even something like I will punch you hard...

Then I am not as good as Gandhiji to say, Please do. I will say, "Dare you. I will kill you before that."

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