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The Devil's Advocate:Cabir/Mukti vs Alya (Page 3)

13thwish IF-Dazzler
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Posted: 26 December 2014 at 11:11am | IP Logged
Welcome back CC! You were missedHug
Res 
(because I be too lazy to type right now but needed to let you know how chuffed I am to see you backBig smile

EDITED:
Hmmm so there seem to be several aspects to this.. let me see how many I can successfully address..

First, if it really was a case of attempted rape of Mukti, then Alya herself would not be sympathetic to her own brother let alone asking anyone else to do so.. Mainly because she herself is a woman and Mukti is her closest friend.. therefore she is able to empathize and understand the gravity of the concept of 'rape' and that would prevent her from seeking 'pardon' from him. We saw a small example of this when she found out her brother was cheating on Mukti and she completely boycotted him. The stakes are obviously much higher in the current example but the principle remains the same. She is able to 'put herself in Mukti's shoes' so she can completely relate and reacts accordingly.
Also, how naively she states that if Harshad was evil then they were just as bad.. If it were attempted rape would she have said that?  No, because then she would have had complete understanding of the nature of the crime while in the present scenario her perception is severely limited. 

In Cabir's case, she can sympathize because she genuinely cares for him but is not capable of empathy.. one because there is no way for her to understand and relate the to the pain, discrimination and intense humiliation a gay person (regardless of gender) goes through in a predominantly heterosexual society and two because Cabir is a guy. So he was beaten. But well then, Harshad was almost killed too. If Mukti was beaten, would she equate the two? No, because Mukti is a girl.
He revealed Cabir's video, but then Cabir did the same to him. This very comparison highlights how little she truly understands the seriousness of the devastation that video caused Cabir. She sees it but is not able to internalize it.
I'm not going to take sides here, I'm just talking about her state of mind.

Cabir's situation itself is complex..in his specific case, the two are not the same at all.. Firstly, Cabir let himself be blackmailed into the video revelation for personal reasons. So, it definitely wasn't a complete surprise and he wasn't ambushed.. The beating is a hate crime but definitely not the equivalent of attempted rape. Also, we have to factor in that Harshad and Cabir had an ongoing rivalry and things escalated  gradually. This wasn't a random attack on an unsuspecting bystander. Doesn't justify anything but definitely provides perspective. 
TBH, Raghav is much more an unsuspecting victim here than Cabir who still got to make choices which R didn't have any say in.

As a viewer too, I'm certain that the reaction would have been very different had it been attempted rape of Mukti because the target audience is mainly straight and female and would have had a similar reaction to Alya's for similar reasons. Empathy inspires bias. It is an inevitable consequence of it.

If you're asking me personally, then no, I felt similar amount of outrage for Cabir's forceful outing as I would've felt had it been attempted rape of Mukti. I spent several sleepless nights worrying about it and had lost interest in all other tracks until the situation was resolved. But this is just me, maybe because of my longstanding personal association with the LGBT community and also having been an actual witness to people in similar situations, my ability to empathize is greater. Our experiences shape our world views after all. It was not a rational reaction of course because the subject is such a sensitive one for me.

Now for the general perspective..  

Forceful outing of a person's sexuality while morally wrong cannot be equated to attempted rape because the former is a violation of privacy and the latter is a violation of one's person..
There is a power trip for the perpetrator in both cases, but somehow I don't think the gravity of the crime is the same.
Forceful outing and an ensuing beating perhaps come close though.. This is splitting hairs.. how to differentiate between the shades of grey..because man or woman, are beating and raping the same thing? Obviously not.
The outing adds a dimension but again there are corollaries to this.. It depends on which part of the world this occurs.. if the outing takes place in a country where being gay is punishable by law then I'd say it's a far worse crime than attempted rape because here the innocent victim themselves are going to be penalized for no fault of their own.. On the other hand, if it happened in a place tolerant and respectful of homosexuality, where the perpetrator would be punished to the fullest extent of the law, atleast for the violence involved if nothing else, then I'd say it's almost on par. 
Again these are not absolutes, because all the parameters will vary on a case to case basis.

It's an interesting conundrum though, isn't it?.. while attempted rape would be punished as a crime in any part of the world, just 'outing' alone regardless of how much damage it causes to the victim mentally, wouldn't be unless it was also accompanied by a hate crime or physical abuse of some kind.
But well, that is a debate for another time I suppose.
 
That being said, it definitely would not generate the same amount of reaction and outrage in society as an attempted rape.. the homosexuality and the gender bias in a predominantly heterosexual, male dominated society are both equally responsible for this attitude.. where women are treated as the 'weaker' sex and therefore objects of sympathy while men as the supposed 'stronger' sex are supposed to 'take it like a man'. Because naturally boys don't cry.  Also homosexuality is largely marginalized and their issues brushed under the carpet for the most part. So naturally, victimization of a homosexual wouldn't make any waves unless the person involved was a celebrity or prominent name.


Edited by 13thwish - 26 December 2014 at 3:56pm

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prishikameghnasBoxedInMedha.Scharminggenie

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Posted: 26 December 2014 at 11:20am | IP Logged
Aye Genie, all this talk reminded me of a post on MB forum about how Draupadis physical abuse and humiliation was justified because she too had 'raped' Karna in a sense by insulting him for his cast in public.How cast was so important that it was probably a bigger offence than a woman being stripped in public.On both cases there is 'stripping' of honor.Blah Blah!

And how people don't think about the 4 brothers having to strip off their clothes and give up their everything including their honor because of their brother too in the dice hall.

Adhi being here is so exciting so I am going to babble now!

I keep thinking about Raghav! He is gone now and we never got attached to his character more than him being Cabir's lover.But the fact is that Cabir is in love ... Harshad wronged the person he loved, the humiliation of having such a private moment being exposed was not just for Cabir but Raghav too.
Then Rahgav got dragged into the hate crime -- the beating, the pain, being violated physically ...It was for both of them, Cabir got more hurt! But if Raghav has the guilt that he couldn't protect the person he loved from getting physically abused ...Cabir too has the guilt! He couldn't protect the person he loved and on top of that, unlike him, Raghav had nothing to do with the Fab5-Harshad beef. And they were together when it happened, I can't imagine the helplessness of not being able to protect yourself and the one you love at the same time.That is the last of what Cabir saw of Raghav, or heard of him.Next day, Raghav leaves simply.

Would Manik,Dhruv or Alya think about forgiveness if it happened to them and the person they love?Will they calmly stand and listen to reason.If it would have been Alya-Dhruv, will they calmly listen to reason and think about forgiveness?Will Dhruv be thinking about forgiveness and second chances if it was him and Alya who were in Raghav and Cabir's place?How would you when you were made to feel so helpless, being right beside the person you love and not being able to do a thing to protect them, shield them away from the physical pain and the rest of it which comes later?Manik would have gone insane, he would have ended Harshad by now.He would have lost his mind and died again and again in every moment thinking about how he let himself be so weak, how he was made so helpless that he couldn't protect Nandini.How would Nandini and Alya feel if they were ganged up on by a group of men and they couldn't do one f**king thing to protect the person they love from getting beaten up right beside them except for maybe pleading and trying to protect themselves.

But the fact is that they don't even consider that because they don't relate to it, many of us don't relate to two Man being in love the way we love our special someone of the opposite sex.They don't understand it and hence avoid it altogether.How could it be that Cabir and another Man can love each other the way Manik loves Nandini or Dhruv might love Alya?Hence, it is not being considered. Isn't Dhruv choosing a side here without even considering what Cabir went through? He wants to help Alya because that is what they do, help each other out and also because he wants her to be happy and he sees her pain, her struggle.He went to talk to Manik about it but no one approached Cabir separately -- Even Mukti knew what it was about because Alya talked to her.But they all are just together, Dhruv suddenly wants Harshad out of jail because Alya wants that and Manik won't refuse Dhruv.Cabir sees that happening in front of him and even Manik supporting Alya when he promised that he will have Cabir's back here.It is not about Alya against Cabir, it is Harshad who is being given the priority over him because Harshad is alya's brother first, then his offender.Wanting Harshad out of jail when for Cabir, that might be his only source of security from the next bad thing coming his way?
Will they think about approaching Cabir for this if instead of his happy mask that he always has on his face, he was loud and vocal about it how much he was internally suffering and stopped smiling and laughing because he was obsessing over what happened that night? or went into depression due to that incident and Raghav leaving the next day without even showing his beaten up face?
Mukti is scarred by her bad breakup with Harshad, Cabir too didn't parted ways with Raghav on some happy note.There was genuine love and still they are not together.

But I guess it is easier to sympathies with the girl who is wronged in that way and wanting justice for her.Instead of Cabir, if it was a girl with whom this happened with her lover.Then people would consider that, sympathize with her and would understand how scarred she is by seeing the person she loves being physically abused right beside her while the same was happening to her.
But fact of the matter is, Cabir is a Man -- Didn't he say today that a Man has to fend for himself.He believes that, he does that.Straight couples being victims of hate crime due to prejudice is there in the papers, rallies and debates and support groups and the public sympathy.
But the same happening for same sex couples? Nope!

There is a reason Cabir would rather talk to Nandini about Raghav than his friends, because she treats his love for what it is, no less than hers or that of any straight couple in love.If he feels so touched due to such a small gesture, just a simple acknowledgment, that yes I know of your love and it is no different than my own love.Well, he doesn't expect his friends to understand it at all so why talk about it more than it is necessary and make myself and all of them uncomfortable.


In the end, Prejudice against male species LOL Mard Ko Dard Nahi Hota! Blah Blah!
Add in the Mard being in love with a Mard and it gets treated like a topic similar to that of a newfound completely different species.

So Forgiveness is the wrong key word and focus shouldn't have been there in the first place.They are asking for too much and too soon at that.A bail for him, a favor! Aliya wanting to have her brother back for herself because he is her brother and she loves him, that makes sense. She asking for forgiveness for something she hasn't done, her brother has doesn't...

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prishikarubys07meghnasBoxedInmedha16-MKB-charminggenielostmymusic.

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Posted: 26 December 2014 at 12:36pm | IP Logged
@MS - I know right, felt complete deja Vu with this one ..hence I wanted to try discussing it without the rape referenceLOL
But outing someone's sexuality and raping cannot be equated, they are  two very different things , which is why they are defined using different words and nomenclature. Because a physical abuse is very easy to bracket , mental harassment is very broad , varied and abstract in that sense.

You brought an interesting point here , Raghav- which is why expecting anything from Cabir is ridiculous. There was another unfortunate victim who didn't get his apology . He had to give up on his job, career, a set life...probably got completely broken again. So pardoning or forgiving Harshad is not a question because in his games against Cabir , he netted another innocent victim. 

Again well said that perhaps Dhruv , Manik and others don't realize the depth of Cabir's love for Raghav. because of the male angle- that I don't agree.  Because none of these kids understand love, they are struggling to deal with it themselves. They have always dealt with hurt by neglecting it, also they never got a chance to process or see the love that Cabir had. So it is a bit unfair on them too. Neither has Cabir grieved about Raghav with them , even now with manik, it's all about the great love for his mom.  For them any guy who walked away from Cabir , was not good enough, so R doesn't factor.

Now when Manik will deal with Nandu's walking away and probably learn about her fears, there is a possibility he might relate to Cabir's pain with Raghav. Because right now more than the gender factor, for him anybody who leaves Love incomplete is a loser...the irony is not lost but still that is his theory. 

I don't think Dhruv is capable enough to handle the emotion or pain of love, he is learning himself and is not  perceptive enough to feel for others. Very singular , yet it's ok if he took Alya's side, he is allowed to be biased . Like I said , these guys are too focused on what Cabir suffered, for which Alya feels they have avenged enough. 

Raghav never factors, because for these kids the world is so just about them. Cabir had this outside equation away from them , hence the indifference, the instant dismissal or neglect of R. 

I do understand sometimes the sympathy is severely tilted towards female gender but in this case - I don't think so, as an audience we are constantly shown Cabir's conflict , the take down and eventual jail-time for harshad, hence it is easy to see that perhaps there is some solace .But his heart-break and the other victim remain invisible story-wise for fab5 as well as viewers, so it's selecting referencing , nothing else. 

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Posted: 26 December 2014 at 12:57pm | IP Logged
I said this in my post, Fab5 don't acknowledge the internal pain of Cabir. Hence when Alya asked Cabir to let Harshad off the hook, she only registered his broken bones and scarred body. She didn't realize the consequences Cabir or Mukti have to bear because of Harshad's actions. To Alya things have been equal, tit for tat has been done. So why only Harshad is to be "punished" when everyone else is free? She doesn't realize that being homeless, going to rehab, having a broken arm on the verge of being amputated is not freedom.

On topic though, I wouldn't associate whatever happened to as Cabir being rape. It's too strong a word for me. But I will say that whatever Harshad did to him was very bad and meant to crush Cabir. It wasn't a spur of a moment thing of Harshad. He did what he did with every intention of doing it. I can understand Alya's position but I am not siding with her. I have the audience's advantage of knowing what's really going and it stops me from taking sides. Because while Cabir and Mukti's decision to not forgive Harshad is right, the way they are dealing with Alya is wrong. Everyone is too absorbed in their own personal desires and woes to register the feelings of others and unless they do so, this whole issue can't be solved completely.

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Posted: 26 December 2014 at 12:59pm | IP Logged
Adhira, I see here that there are two parts to your question. One, whether outing someone's alternative sexuality is comparable to attempted rape, and two, whether we ,as the (mostly straight, female) audience of this show, would have empathised less with Alya if this had been an open-and-shut case of rape on a woman.
The first question, no. I'd say it's similar to leaking the private videos/photos of a woman in an ultra-conservative society. The shame, the helplessness, the pain of it, I can definitely imagine that. 
And the second question, yes, I agree that somewhere most of us as an audience perhaps lack the wherewithal or simply the personal connect with the problems that the LGBTQ community faces in our society, and hence we perhaps feel a lot less angry on Cabir's behalf than we'd have done if the victim had been a (straight) girl. As Medha already pointed out, even the fact that  Cabir is a male goes against him, because traditionally we do not see males as 'victims', especially when it comes to sexual crimes. 

As for Cabir's case in particular here, I've already said that the revelation of his sexuality falls into the area of 'blackmail' for me. Cabir made that decision for both himself and Raghav. And he made it so that his band could win a music competition. That's the hard and simple fact of it. Now, as a member of the audience who is attached to the character, I can say that Cabir did not deserve any of this, that his playing that video of Harshad's was completely justified. But again, Cabir's tactic, on a purely logical level, was a rather stupid thing to do to a homophobic guy with violent tendencies and the means to indulge them. I'm in no way saying that Cabir asked for it, of course he didn't, but this does make the beating up of Cabir-Raghav not a sexual crime, but a hate crime motivated by revenge. Harshad did not beat Cabir up because C is gay; he beat him up because he is an egoistic homophobic who blindly wanted revenge. I don't think we can compare it in any way to an attempted rape on Mukti or on any girl for that matter, simply because the physical act of sex is very different from using someone's sexuality as a tool to gain power over them. 


Edited by BoxedIn - 26 December 2014 at 1:18pm

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Posted: 26 December 2014 at 1:51pm | IP Logged
I didn't want to use the word rape here at all because automatically, it is assumed as a sexual crime.
So I guess it depends on varying opinions and means/definition of the word rape.
We had to read Rape of The Lock by Pope and my parents had hilarious reactions to me reading a book with Rape written on its cover.
Even though, in those times Rape, instead of being sexual, is a term used for damaging,harassing, physical abuse,force and mental abuse and harassment.


But if we stick to the present day modern definition, the word rape makes us think of sexual violation.So

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Posted: 26 December 2014 at 9:06pm | IP Logged
Okay...first bits first.  This can't be called rape in its generic definition.  If you delve deeper into the meaning of what rape is and does, then yes there are feelings and emotions involved...that Cabir feels that could be equated somewhat, to what a rape victim feels. The shame, the loss of one's dignity, etc

BUT this wasn't rape, it was out and out a homophobic attack.  It wasn't just revenge by Harshad because Cabir showed people a video of him(Harshad) in the similar way that Harshad had.  Harshad is a homophobic jerk and that is why he did what he did.  The grease on their faces after the attack is one of sickest things in that episode. I don't dislike Harshad because Fab5 hates him.  I dislike him because he does things with deliberate thought, with intention to hurt and destroy lives.

Alya is right in her own way.  Harshad is her brother after all.  Blood being thicker than water and all that jazz.  What I don't understand is why she thinks that just because they are her friends, Fab 5 - mainly Mukti and Cabir should forgive Harshad.  She has seen the damage done to Mukti.  Maybe not on Cabir, because he goes around smiling.  But c'mon, this was the same girl whose been "growing up"  with Fab 5 since forever it seems.  Does she not know the difference between real emotions and faked ones? Harshad does seem to love Alya in some twisted way because we've seem him get protective about her but apparently, he hates Fab5 more than he loves his sister.  She knows that too.  She herself had said that he uses what she says/shares against her.  Is it that easy to fool her - which we all know Harshad is doing?! Or maybe all logical thoughts take a back seat when family is involved.  

i want to write more, but Medha S has written down everything that I want to say. Word for word, verbatim to what my thought process was on the whole thing.  




PS - On an aside - I love the fact that despite being a teenage love story, this show brings out some of the best discussions.  I'm mostly a silent member, but there have been posts which just MAKE me want to participate. lol
 

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Posted: 27 December 2014 at 3:28am | IP Logged
can I liek res coz u will also comment on Monday.


Damn u r back girl!!!

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