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Stockholm Syndrome among (Indian) Women (Page 7)

charminggenie IF-Sizzlerz
charminggenie
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Posted: 12 February 2014 at 3:21pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by K.Universe.

i am sorry, you are missing too many of my points genie.
Apologies, and let me see where I missed your points. Or Perhaps , we are looking at this issue from different perspectives.

1. it's not always about survival, that an individual or a group tries to dominate another individual or a group. they do, because they can. violence against women is not just violence on women; it is is violence because they are women.
A gene-based explanation focuses on sexual hormones like testosterone which are directly linked with aggression ,the need for male to seek violence against female in aggressive or non-aggressive form  was to ensure sexual propriety over them .  Woman abuse  was initially seen as a "mate retention tactic. 
Also neo-Darwinian ideas used evolutionary adaptations  as a probable cause for  male violence against women. This could be especially possible when a female was reproducing and was unable to hunt/gather, the role of giver was taken by Male and females tend to see their reproduction as a submissive trait.
"But modern proponents would agree, by the perspective that social factors work as intermediate
variables to modify or trigger behaviour, so-called socio-biology "( Wilson 1985)

2. i am not saying who is inferior and who is superior. i am merely observing who is dominant and who is subservient in the timeline of life
Testosterone is considered to be the popular reason for a male aggression and also is the factor why both male and female will react to a competition differently. A male might be more aggressive but a female is usually cool and sure of emotions. This mood difference has characterized male as dominant and female as subservient (Mazur et al. 1995).

3. "one cannot survive without another, hence perfectly balanced" is not what is under contention. what is under contention is why is one gender consistently victimized
Victimization cannot be reasoned by just one mechanism , there has been so many factors for it but more than biology , I consider sociology  as the prime guilty party.

4. there is no one contest in particular. the contest, if any, is life.

5. when i am talking about genes, i am talking about genes (coded instructions) and how they are involved in the formation of neuronal circuits, the execution of behavior and mechanisms involved in neuro-pathogenesis. Please Google "genes, brain and behavior". 

I see your reasoning behind neuro-pathogenesis but  I feel we have progressed enough with research to ascertain that biology merely created distinctive behavior not victimization . Some of those factors which result in victimization are -social learning, Psychopathology and the generic system.

Please read this - http://www.lfcc.on.ca/maleviolence.pdf 

 it details male violence against female using various mechanisms including biology. While I will try to "google" the other terms.


6. science is not simple.
Nah, still simple, if the mind is willing for constant reasoning. 

Oh, will be back for more, but have referenced most of the theories from where I backed my points.Smile


Edited by charminggenie - 12 February 2014 at 3:21pm

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LeadNitrate

K.Universe. Goldie
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Posted: 12 February 2014 at 3:48pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by charminggenie



A gene-based explanation focuses on sexual hormones like testosterone ...


Testosterone is considered to be the popular reason for a male aggression and ...





1. Testosterone doesn't induce aggression.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091208132241.htm?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:%20sciencedaily%20%28ScienceDaily:%20Latest%20Science%20News%29

2. why would a gene based explanation focus on hormones?

3. please read this. i am pasting a few excerpts right below the link.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2612120/


Impulsive aggression plays a critical role in the manifestation of violent and criminal behavior and is considered an important psychopathological symptom of several mental disorders including borderline and antisocial personality disorders

The review suggests that dysfunctional interactions between serotonin and dopamine systems in the prefrontal cortex may be an important mechanism underlying the link between impulsive aggression and its comorbid disorders.

Impulsive aggression is a complex behavioral phenotype and multiple brain systems may contribute to its etiology and its high comorbidity with other disorders. The association between impulsive aggression and its comorbid disorders may result from biological predisposing factors, such as an imbalance among the functions of different neurochemical systems, or dysfunction in activities of executive brain regions. Specifically, low levels of the neurotransmitter serotonin (5-HT) have been associated with impulsive aggression in both human and animal studies


4. if we agree that everything is "chemical" where does social fit in? ultimately, all experiences should boil down to some electrochemical signals right?


P.S: No need to apologize. And I am sorry, impatience is one of my many negative traits.



Edited by K.Universe. - 12 February 2014 at 3:47pm
K.Universe. Goldie
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Posted: 12 February 2014 at 3:53pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by return_to_hades

Visible features like strength and size play a factor. But other invisible factors such as intelligence and immunity also seem to play a role.


IMO, intelligence plays the biggest role. It is the sole characteristic that puts humans at the top of the food chain. But within a group where the members have more or less the same intelligence, size and strength seemingly come into play.


*Woh Ajnabee* IF-Sizzlerz
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Posted: 12 February 2014 at 8:36pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by K.Universe.

Education, empowerment, and then what? Live happily ever after?

The dice is loaded in favor of one gender. How do you balance what is innately an imbalanced equation? Does promoting gender equality actually achieve gender equality? Ultimately, is the "overall" plan when addressing violence against women, nothing but a hope that men remain kind, sympathetic and supportive to the needs of women?



I like this post A LOT.  


I often wonder if women really have been given the shorter end of the stick by nature - and if so, to what extent can we fight nature?  


I like the fact that you HAVE to find a scientific reasoning behind everything - even when the scientists associate patriarchy with gender roles in our society. LOL It is an interesting point though - across different time periods and in a wide variety of cultures, why is it always that women are oppressed and not vice versa? 


I guess one explanation is that men are by nature (generally) physically stronger than women. Women by nature have the advantage or disadvantage of pregnancy. The combination of these two facts led to the gender roles that predominantly exist in all societies even today. Women could not engage in hunting and gathering when they were pregnant, for example, and men became responsible for feeding the family and protecting it from external threats. This notion plays a fundamental role in the concept of male dominance that exists today.


Having said that, it's possible of course that genetic factors contribute to the predominance of patriarchy. However, I don't think I've ever read anything about specific genes contributing to this notion of male dominance. If we were to say that there is a gene coding for male dominance, then we would have to find a gene located on the Y chromosome, right? I think the Y chromosome contains about 50-60 genes, and all genes are responsible for male sex determination and development. I guess it's possible that one of these genes could contribute to inherent male dominance. I wonder how that gene would be affected in an XXY male. 


Also, I agree with you that the role of testosterone has little to do with gene structure. And while testosterone is linked with male aggression, it is not the only contributor. If that were the case, how would we explain female disorders that are characterized by elevated testosterone levels? Do those patients present with aggressive behavior?


(I posted a response to your original post + other ideas/thoughts as well - so, don't feel obliged to respond. :-))



Edited by *Woh Ajnabee* - 12 February 2014 at 8:36pm

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K.Universe.charminggenie

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Posted: 12 February 2014 at 8:54pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by charminggenie



The overall plan is to stop making " violence against women" a gender based issue. Once we stop categorizing violent incidences according to gender - we will achieve equality. Unfortunately to achieve that ideal state, we need to push and educate the horrors and unjust of violence against women in cases of sati, dowry, infanticide etc considering the skewed social opinion about women and the designated inferior status.

 Expecting men to have a certain behaviour or emotion like sympathy for women defeats the purpose of equality. We need to teach how this power equilibrium needs both of men and women with their distinct capabilities to achieve  the nature's balance.


But Genie, don't you think we HAVE to talk about violence against women as "violence against women". Isn't it important for us as a society to acknowledge that a certain group of people in our society are being oppressed or unjustly treated - be it people of a certain race, religion or ... females. Until we acknowledge this fact and try to understand why is it that women are treated as second-class citizens in many societies, there is no way for us to fix this problem. 

And in order for us to fix this problem, we need to acknowledge its prevalence, which requires some form of emotions. I don't think compassion from men (or anyone) belittles equality of the genders. Of course I do think that we have to rely on logical reasoning for us to change anything in our society, but acknowledging that a problem exists requires some form of emotions, I think - be it compassion, or anger or suffering. 


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return_to_hades

K.Universe. Goldie
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Posted: 12 February 2014 at 10:38pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by *Woh Ajnabee*



Women by nature have the advantage or disadvantage of pregnancy.

Fixable in theory. Take clown-fish for instance. They start off as males. If the female fish is removed from the group for any reason, the most dominant male fish
becomes the female. Similarly, a coral reef fish starts off as a female and at some point in life changes sex to male depending on internal/external triggers. I guess we need to understand what controls the androgen/estrogen ratio. It has to be encoded somewhere in the genome. There's no magic. Knowledge is the only antidote for ignorance / suffering / pain.

Having said that, it's possible of course that genetic factors contribute to the predominance of patriarchy. However, I don't think I've ever read anything about specific genes contributing to this notion of male dominance. If we were to say that there is a gene coding for male dominance, then we would have to find a gene located on the Y chromosome, right? I think the Y chromosome contains about 50-60 genes, and all genes are responsible for male sex determination and development. I guess it's possible that one of these genes could contribute to inherent male dominance. I wonder how that gene would be affected in an XXY male.

The idea is to figure out which genes are responsible for neurotransmitters like serotonin and dopamine in the brain. They have good evidence that brain serotonin is responsible for controlling aggression and the genes encoding the enzymes of serotonin modulate the aggressive behavior. What that means is that, slight variations in the encoding of the genes will bring down or kick up the aggression levels. I thought that in the same vein, we could probably find the genes that control some neurotransmitter that is responsible for pathological dominance. Like I said before, lot of it is theory and on paper but you got to start somewhere. When it comes to solving the big problems, in my opinion, it's best to invest our time and efforts in science and technology rather than investing our time and efforts in social teachings. I am not belittling the importance of social reforms, I am just not convinced that they can get the job done here considering we are fighting nature itself.


 
.Boss. IF-Dazzler
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Posted: 13 February 2014 at 12:34am | IP Logged
You forgot to mention how infidel men are, and it is them who need to be 'Sati.' I'll come back on this. Right now, i gotta go. Sorry.
charminggenie IF-Sizzlerz
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Posted: 13 February 2014 at 4:23am | IP Logged
Originally posted by *Woh Ajnabee*

[


But Genie, don't you think we HAVE to talk about violence against women as "violence against women". Isn't it important for us as a society to acknowledge that a certain group of people in our society are being oppressed or unjustly treated - be it people of a certain race, religion or ... females. Until we acknowledge this fact and try to understand why is it that women are treated as second-class citizens in many societies, there is no way for us to fix this problem. 


And in order for us to fix this problem, we need to acknowledge its prevalence, which requires some form of emotions. I don't think compassion from men (or anyone) belittles equality of the genders. Of course I do think that we have to rely on logical reasoning for us to change anything in our society, but acknowledging that a problem exists requires some form of emotions, I think - be it compassion, or anger or suffering. 


[/QUOTE]
Hey WA!! Long time!!Smile

Sorry but you read my post little wrong or I was unable to clarify what exactly i meant by that.

I spoke about an ideal system where there is no gender specific violence . That is the end game of gender equality but in today's real world that is far from possible.

Hence we need to educate people and empower that currently gender specific violence and practices which put women in a an inferior position. 

This was in reply to Mr K's post that how can education help in gender equality!! Rest I echo every word you wrote!

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