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Is Karvachauth wrong? (Page 7)

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K.Universe.

Goldie

K.Universe.

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Posted: 30 October 2013 at 3:49pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by joie de vivre

Originally posted by BirdieNumNum


You cant respect certain choices women make, such as KC, because they put the woman at discomfort. Sounds like a one-night stand, no commitment, no sacrifice, no hard work. Great women's lib stuffLOL 



Not because they put women at discomfort. If you can't bother to read my previous posts again and counter my points, please at least don't come up with a lousy strawman argument. 

Furthermore, you're conflating too many disparate things here (one night stands?), and then have a pop at 'women's lib'. You sound like a certain type of desi person who has issues wrt some of the freedom's women enjoy in more permissive societies and cling to anachronistic traditions as some sort of talisman against this new breed of 'empowered woman'. Grow up.



I will let him defend himself, but purely from a debating standpoint, his emphasis was always on strengthening the relationship between partners, by any means necessary.

That approach makes much more sense than the antagonistic attitude some folks are adopting here. You have to prove why this festival is bad for the society, with working examples, instead of going off on a tirade against those with a difference of opinion or attacking those who have a different take on this festival.




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BirdieNumNumcharminggenie

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return_to_hades

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Posted: 30 October 2013 at 3:53pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by K.Universe.

Originally posted by return_to_hades

This makes me wonder, can I fast for someone's short life. Ermm



HAHA

Another twist: if one partner in a gay or lesbian couple would like to fast for the 'longevity" of the other, would that still be categorized as inequality?


First lets determine which should keep the fast in a homosexual couple (especially two men), then we can discuss if it is unfair on them.

 


return_to_hades

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Posted: 30 October 2013 at 4:01pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by charminggenie

Originally posted by return_to_hades

Karva chauth is it is popularly known and celebrated is a festival where the woman fasts for her husband's long life. Of course as times change many men do keep a fast with their wives or request that these traditions not be followed. But this is still a woman fasting for her man. It is an inequality.

 

While I respect a woman's choice to keep a fast, for society in the long term I would like to see either the festival end or evolve to something that is equal to both husband and wife.

 

This makes me wonder, can I fast for someone's short life. Ermm


Umm Don't think I agree with that Hades. The definition that you have given is way dated. The times and the situations it was made were different. This was never meant to be all about men, if you go by the folk tales that are exchanged during this festival , you would understand that all women talk are about themselves how Queen X and other women kept this fast when their husbands left for war. It was a choice then too! if you look at the actual Pooja, its always about the society women gathering together and exchanging that moment. This day was created to let them bond over a simple fact that their husbands have gone for long periods of war time.

Society and the festival itself has made it clear that its end or evolution is in an individual's hand.  The choice if keeping it together or not observing it, is very much open to all. So I really don't see it as an inequality!



If the emphasis in history was bonding when men were away at war, then why did fasting become a focal point. Why did it spread to all women instead of wives of soldiers? Why didn't men start sharing the fast till recent times?

 

The present day festival is one of choice. But also one of unfair peer pressure a lot of times. We cannot deny that the history and roots despite free will have heavy patriarchal influences. It may not be a social evil. It may be one of choice. But that doesn't mean we cannot acknowledge that it is still lopsided and can be improved.


K.Universe.

Goldie

K.Universe.

Joined: 02 September 2012

Posts: 1146

Posted: 30 October 2013 at 4:15pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by return_to_hades

First lets determine which should keep the fast in a homosexual couple (especially two men), then we can discuss if it is unfair on them. 


Which? I hope that's a typo for who, and not a deliberate faux pas.

As for the question, I would say alternative fasting for folks with alternative lifestyles :)


charminggenie

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Posted: 30 October 2013 at 4:25pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by return_to_hades

[QUOTE=charminggeniet life. Ermm



[/QUOTE]

If the emphasis in history was bonding when men were away at war, then why did fasting become a focal point. Why did it spread to all women instead of wives of soldiers? Why didn't men start sharing the fast till recent times?

We are talking about a time frame of history where most of our religious practices were based around fasting. Read Navratras, Teej etc. The mode or the general form of devotion had fasting as a prime factor. 

And just for the knowledge this fast is not about starving- the MIL feed their DIls tonnes of goodies before the 1st sun break and again as soon as the moon is sighted , the culinary spread is all out for the ladies to feast on. Biologically , there is no starving happening here.

Why it spread to other women- well its a Northern Indian practice, during that time majority of the population including the royals as well as the natives were soldiers. See the number of wars that were fought and the number of soldiers who participated. And  it spread, because most enjoyed this little ritual of dressing up , praying together etc etc. There was no harm per se .  Just so you know this has become a fad now but till recently it was limited to particular section of Indian population.  

Why men only recently started sharing it- it's a trick question right?- clubbing equality and Karwa Chauth?

See even for the major part of 20th century, not many women were working or educated . There was no sense of "equality in marriage" till recent times. It took women all this time to come out of their conditioning. 

But it has nothing to do with Karwa Chauth - it never propagated inequality nor it does now. It is upto your interruption of it - the evolution in terms of its practice was always our choice. It is another matter it took a DDLJ wala Raj or current generation to bring the men in its fold. But why should we call it inequality if a man refuses to keep it, his choice and its his wife's choice whether she wants to do it or not! 


 The present day festival is one of choice. But also one of unfair peer pressure a lot of times. We cannot deny that the history and roots despite free will have heavy patriarchal influences. It may not be a social evil. It may be one of choice. But that doesn't mean we cannot acknowledge that it is still lopsided and can be improved.

I am glad you see it as a choice for the present. Tell me one scenario of our life where there is no peer pressure, but by being judgmental about this day aren't we also putting a sort of peer pressure. A woman practicing it now would be called as regressive or backward- what would we call to that evaluation?

It was loop-sided by choice during its inception and its is aligning itself towards the middle point by choice only.  By all means customize it according to individual wants and preferences, why shun it though?


[/QUOTE]

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AishuHiBawari

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AishuHiBawari

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Posted: 30 October 2013 at 4:25pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by joie de vivre


So basically in a nutshell, you're saying  "that all women are worthy of respect be default of being a woman and all of their choices are equally valid."


YESS!! Ding ding ding! We have a winner! That is exactly what I believe! I believe that women, and not just women, but all people, should be treated with respect no matter a.) what religious/personal beliefs they have, b.) how they choose to dress, and c.) what they do to their own bodies. It just basically boils down to being a decent human being and respecting other people's choices, even if they are different from your own. As long as they are not harming anyone, or insulting anyone, what they decide to do, is up to them.


Originally posted by joie de vive

Sorry. Yeah, feminism is about choices, but not all choices are feminist choices. There is nothing feminist (or even remotely rational) about fasting for your husband's health (when he isn't required to do the same) or aborting a female foetus or getting a boob job or walking around in a black tent. Do it, if you must, but don't please don't justify your choice as a feminist one. Just because someone "feels good" doing something, doesn't mean they are doing their bit in sustaining the social status-quo. 


So, feminism is about choices, but, according to you, there are right choices and wrong choices. And if a woman makes a choice, that in your eyes is wrong, then she can't have your respect. And if we go further, that means that unless a woman conforms to your idea of an ideal woman, she shouldn't be respected. Sound like patriarchy much?

And you said that a woman is required to fast, while the man isn't. But I don't think you understand, a vrat has to be voluntary. Otherwise, it is not a vrat. A woman isn't forced to fast, neither is her husband. If she chooses to do so, then you should still respect her.
---
And @charminggenie, agree on every point!


Edited by AishuHiBawari - 30 October 2013 at 6:56pm

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BirdieNumNumcharminggenie

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Posted: 30 October 2013 at 8:37pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by K.Universe.

Originally posted by joie de vivre


Not because they put women at discomfort. If you can't bother to read my previous posts again and counter my points, please at least don't come up with a lousy strawman argument. 

Furthermore, you're conflating too many disparate things here (one night stands?), and then have a pop at 'women's lib'. You sound like a certain type of desi person who has issues wrt some of the freedom's women enjoy in more permissive societies and cling to anachronistic traditions as some sort of talisman against this new breed of 'empowered woman'. Grow up.


I will let him defend himself, but purely from a debating standpoint, his emphasis was always on strengthening the relationship between partners, by any means necessary.

That approach makes much more sense than the antagonistic attitude some folks are adopting here. You have to prove why this festival is bad for the society, with working examples, instead of going off on a tirade against those with a difference of opinion or attacking those who have a different take on this festival.


of course that was my point and thanks for explaining it so well to Joie. Hope she gets it now.Smile

but given the virulence of the attacks, i am beginning to wonder if the women arguing against KC want to drag all women down to their level.LOL Just because they can't be bothered making an effort, they would rather not not look bad by comparison. It's like women who run down the concept of beauty because they might be ugly,  or the lazy stupid kids who cant be bothered studying, so they would try to have exams cancelled even if it harms the ones who worked hard. Smart, very smartLOL


Edited by BirdieNumNum - 30 October 2013 at 8:45pm

BirdieNumNum

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BirdieNumNum

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Posts: 967

Posted: 30 October 2013 at 9:10pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by return_to_hades

Karva chauth is it is popularly known and celebrated is a festival where the woman fasts for her husband's long life. Of course as times change many men do keep a fast with their wives or request that these traditions not be followed. But this is still a woman fasting for her man. It is an inequality.

 

While I respect a woman's choice to keep a fast, for society in the long term I would like to see either the festival end or evolve to something that is equal to both husband and wife.

 

This makes me wonder, can I fast for someone's short life. Ermm


of course,you can pray for anything. It's woman's choice after all. TongueJust ensure the negative energies you send out with those prayers don't come back to bite you in the rear.LOL

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