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Is Karvachauth wrong? (Page 5)

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joie de vivre

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joie de vivre

Joined: 18 January 2007

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Posted: 30 October 2013 at 10:43am | IP Logged
Originally posted by AishuHiBawari


I agree that women should be treated equal to men. But you can't go about bringing equality if you actively disrespect women for making certain choices that are theirs to make alone. Islam does not force a woman to wear a burkha. But if she chooses to, then she deserves as much respect as a woman who doesn't. And if women get boob jobs, then it is their business, not yours. If it makes them feel more confident about their appearance, then hats off to them! I am happy that they're happy. Why are you assuming that women choose to dress the way they dress so as to get men's attention. They don't! It's for their own satisfaction! And similarly, if a woman chooses to fast for her husband, which I take as a sign of total devotion and love, and i reiterate, then everyone else should respect her decision!

Fasting has deep roots in Hinduism. It is a way of distancing yourself from your gross body (sthool sharir), because we believe that we are souls incarnated into bodies, but not the physical body itself. And fasting is a way of getting rid of gluttony, one of the sinful traits that keeps you attached to worldly pleasures and illusion. Your mind shouldn't be focused on moha, money, food and sex, but instead on higher thoughts. That is why we fast. When a woman fasts for Karvachauth, she is making a statement that she prizes her husband and his long life, above the bodily want for food.

Plus, we can't pick and choose which woman is worthy of our respect, because they all are! If someone forces a woman to fast, or get a boob job, or anything else, then yes, that is wrong. But if it is her own decision, then she should be allowed to do what she wants. You're objectifying women because you think that they all either adhere to certain rules, or rebel against the society that sets these rules. But in my opinion, a woman should be allowed to do whatever she wants and respected for it.

And I am a woman myself, and this kind of just puts me off. I'm sorry.


Like I said, some choices that women make are intrinsically misogynistic. They make FEEL that they are acting out of their own free will, but what they are really doing is acting like a turkey voting for Christmas. As a matter if fact, in patriarchal societies like ours, it's WOMEN themselves who prop up the patriarchy and partake in and entrench misogyny and gender inequality. Women can misogynistic themselves.

Not every choice is a feminist choice, and I can't respect certain choices women make. What you're saying is deeply patronising guff - that all women are worthy of respect be default of being a woman and all of their choices are equally valid. Nope. The choice of a woman to have a sex selective abortion is not one to be respected. Nor is the choice of a woman to treat her sons differently than her daughters, or deify her husband or derive her sense of self worth from his mere existence. That women choose to do this is neither here nor there; what's important is that these are touchstones of a patriarchal, woman-hating society. Apologists for this sort of rubbish are part of the problem. 


Edited by joie de vivre - 30 October 2013 at 10:43am

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BirdieNumNum

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BirdieNumNum

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Posted: 30 October 2013 at 11:57am | IP Logged
Originally posted by return_to_hades

[

No denying that one should be conditioned' to do the right' things. But I don't see fasts or other rituals as right' or wrong'. There are many right' things in a relationship like faithfulness, respect, compromise, support, companionship and a whole lot more things that are reflected in everyday behavior. I never stated that people feel special without any effort. But right and wrong and goodness of a person is based on everyday general behavior - not merely by rituals.

 

Yes. Everything we do is conditioning in some way. And conditioning can be good, bad or neutral.

 

In my perspective

 

You will be a good husband/wife if you have a strong bond built on mutual trust, respect and compromise is good conditioning.

You will be a good wife if you fast and say prayers for your significant others is something I find borderline. A bit unfair and kind of illogical.

You can make yourself and your significant other feel loved and special through certain fasts and rituals if you wish to, is perhaps more palatable.

 

In the end an unfaithful or abusive spouse will be just that irrespective of any fasts or valentines day hooplas. A faithful, respectful spouse will always be one even if they don't keep fasts and forget a certain day.

                                                           



here's the problem with what you are saying. You talk about things like respect, mutual trust, strong bond. These are great objectives, but that's what they are- objectives. And what i am saying is that KC is one of the things someone can do to help achieve these objectives that we can all agree on. Beautiful relationships dont happen in a vacuum, just because we want them or agree on the objectives. One needs to find ways to achieving them. In the extreme, if we do away with all rituals where hard work or sacrifice is involved, then what do we have?

now for all those people who sneer at the woman's belief, well that's a part of our culture, starting with Savitri bringing her husband back from the dead etc. If you dont buy into prayers, then you dont buy into God... That's fine. But if we are honest, aren't there times we all pray? Is it really so terrible for a woman to wish long life for her husband? And what's the cost? A day of fasting?

i actually see KC as a ritual that expresses strong caring and love for the husband. That in turn would make me more bound to her. Like i said before, i am open to rituals where it's the men going through the hardship. But really, what kind of a relationship is it when no one needs to make any sacrifice? I can get a ziillion girls that way, but what i'd want is someone who can go to the ends of earth... KC is one way of showing that. If a female cant even do that if she's able to and if it's a part of the culture she grew up in, well what else wont she do? Those would be obvious questions a guy would have... 

BirdieNumNum

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BirdieNumNum

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Posted: 30 October 2013 at 12:06pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by joie de vivre


Like I said, some choices that women make are intrinsically misogynistic. They make FEEL that they are acting out of their own free will, but what they are really doing is acting like a turkey voting for Christmas. As a matter if fact, in patriarchal societies like ours, it's WOMEN themselves who prop up the patriarchy and partake in and entrench misogyny and gender inequality. Women can misogynistic themselves.

Not every choice is a feminist choice, and I can't respect certain choices women make. What you're saying is deeply patronising guff - that all women are worthy of respect be default of being a woman and all of their choices are equally valid. Nope. The choice of a woman to have a sex selective abortion is not one to be respected. Nor is the choice of a woman to treat her sons differently than her daughters, or deify her husband or derive her sense of self worth from his mere existence. That women choose to do this is neither here nor there; what's important is that these are touchstones of a patriarchal, woman-hating society. Apologists for this sort of rubbish are part of the problem. 
 
You cant respect certain choices women make, such as KC, because they put the woman at discomfort. Sounds like a one-night stand, no commitment, no sacrifice, no hard work. Great women's lib stuffLOL 




Edited by BirdieNumNum - 30 October 2013 at 12:30pm

AishuHiBawari

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AishuHiBawari

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Posted: 30 October 2013 at 1:00pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by joie de vivre

Originally posted by AishuHiBawari


I agree that women should be treated equal to men. But you can't go about bringing equality if you actively disrespect women for making certain choices that are theirs to make alone. Islam does not force a woman to wear a burkha. But if she chooses to, then she deserves as much respect as a woman who doesn't. And if women get boob jobs, then it is their business, not yours. If it makes them feel more confident about their appearance, then hats off to them! I am happy that they're happy. Why are you assuming that women choose to dress the way they dress so as to get men's attention. They don't! It's for their own satisfaction! And similarly, if a woman chooses to fast for her husband, which I take as a sign of total devotion and love, and i reiterate, then everyone else should respect her decision!

Fasting has deep roots in Hinduism. It is a way of distancing yourself from your gross body (sthool sharir), because we believe that we are souls incarnated into bodies, but not the physical body itself. And fasting is a way of getting rid of gluttony, one of the sinful traits that keeps you attached to worldly pleasures and illusion. Your mind shouldn't be focused on moha, money, food and sex, but instead on higher thoughts. That is why we fast. When a woman fasts for Karvachauth, she is making a statement that she prizes her husband and his long life, above the bodily want for food.

Plus, we can't pick and choose which woman is worthy of our respect, because they all are! If someone forces a woman to fast, or get a boob job, or anything else, then yes, that is wrong. But if it is her own decision, then she should be allowed to do what she wants. You're objectifying women because you think that they all either adhere to certain rules, or rebel against the society that sets these rules. But in my opinion, a woman should be allowed to do whatever she wants and respected for it.

And I am a woman myself, and this kind of just puts me off. I'm sorry.


Like I said, some choices that women make are intrinsically misogynistic. They make FEEL that they are acting out of their own free will, but what they are really doing is acting like a turkey voting for Christmas. As a matter if fact, in patriarchal societies like ours, it's WOMEN themselves who prop up the patriarchy and partake in and entrench misogyny and gender inequality. Women can misogynistic themselves.

Not every choice is a feminist choice, and I can't respect certain choices women make. What you're saying is deeply patronising guff - that all women are worthy of respect be default of being a woman and all of their choices are equally valid. Nope. The choice of a woman to have a sex selective abortion is not one to be respected. Nor is the choice of a woman to treat her sons differently than her daughters, or deify her husband or derive her sense of self worth from his mere existence. That women choose to do this is neither here nor there; what's important is that these are touchstones of a patriarchal, woman-hating society. Apologists for this sort of rubbish are part of the problem. 


But do you see what you are doing here? You are saying that women should be like this, they should be like that. They should change their way of living just to make a point. You are creating rules for women, saying that they should do the opposite of what society expects them to do, and in that, you are imposing rules on them just like society is.

I am a feminist, and I believe that all women deserve respect regardless of what PERSONAL choices they make. Personal, as in, they are theirs to make alone. Whether or not a woman fasts doesn't affect anyone's life but hers, so it is HER choice. Selective abortion, raising her sons differently than her daughters, etc were NOT EVEN IN THE DISCUSSION. They don't relate to the topic at all. If she is selectively killing female babies, yes, that is wrong as hell. If she is treating her sons differently than her daughters, that is wrong too! But what she wears, whether she fasts, that doesn't affect anyone else, so how is that wrong? If she chooses to do it, then it's her business, not yours. In regards to the burkha: if a woman has the right to expose her body, she has the right to cover it. You cannot decide whether it is right or wrong.

Just because she chooses to fast, she chooses to wear a burkha, she chooses have a breast augmentation, that does not in any way mean that she is bowing down to patriarchy. There are so many different kinds of women out there! Open your eyes! And they should be able to make their own personal choices as long as they don't harm anyone else. And feminism seeks to impower women, regardless of whether they follow a certain faith or not. Karvachauth is a religious festival in which the woman fasts for the long life of a husband. You can say that there is inequality there, but it's not as if men don't fast for their wives. IN FACT, MANY MEN DO!


I think what the problem is that people keep making up rules for what a woman should do. Some say she should fast, some, like you, say that she shouldn't ever fast. But the idea behind feminism is that she should be able to do what she wants to do. Karvachauth is neither right nor wrong. It is simply a choice that should be left completely up to the woman who does it.


Edited by AishuHiBawari - 30 October 2013 at 1:02pm

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charminggenie

K.Universe.

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Posted: 30 October 2013 at 1:03pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by joie de vivre

Like I said, some choices that women make are intrinsically misogynistic. They make FEEL that they are acting out of their own free will, but what they are really doing is acting like a turkey voting for Christmas. As a matter if fact, in patriarchal societies like ours, it's WOMEN themselves who prop up the patriarchy and partake in and entrench misogyny and gender inequality. Women can misogynistic themselves.


I think misogyny is too strong a word and is not applicable in this context. Inequality yes, but certainly not misogyny.

I followed the etymology of this festival and I don't see how a "hatred of women" or "sexual objectification of women" or "violence against women" led the then society to come up with this festival, unless you have factual evidence to the contrary, that some of us are not privy to.

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shweta2728charminggenie

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Posted: 30 October 2013 at 1:18pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by BirdieNumNum

[Like i said before, i am open to rituals where it's the men going through the hardship.


But why invent new rituals when one can reciprocate on the very day of this festival?

Why not have a WIKI entry that reads something like this: "Karwa Chauth is a festival celebrated by Hindu men and women in which married men and women fast from sunrise to moonrise for the safety and longevity of their respective spouses"?

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return_to_hades

charminggenie

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Posted: 30 October 2013 at 2:14pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by K.Universe.

Originally posted by BirdieNumNum

[Like i said before, i am open to rituals where it's the men going through the hardship.


But why invent new rituals when one can reciprocate on the very day of this festival?

Why not have a WIKI entry that reads something like this: "Karwa Chauth is a festival celebrated by Hindu men and women in which married men and women fast from sunrise to moonrise for the safety and longevity of their respective spouses"?

@ Mr. K- you really think women will wiki about karwa Chauth and decide about participating on the basis of it's definition.  DDLJ's Raj has done that job and most men are giving their wives their company on this day!

But honestly, I feel this festival is more of a social celebration that a religious practice. I see women dressing up and using this day to bond with each other. it's like taking a day-off and celebrating themselves. 

As long as we don't use it as a some "must be done" practice or put compulsions on women, we are good,as long as the choice is in her hand. And anyway its an open ended choice  for the men, I see most of the guys keeping it as well. But would I judge a guy just because he didn't ate during this festival, nope , it was his choice and I respect that and i will extend the same if his wife without any external pressure keeps it for her own happiness.

I know little about the history of this day but I for a fact know that it was never a compulsory even then. More like wife praying for their soldier husbands who were battling during the war days. Long distance, no communication and the resultant worry, made them find a common ground where together they can share their grief . This was the concept behind praying for the "long life "- which even they were aware was not an eventuality but they took solace in their prayers and in this day. See as much as I abhor many social evil practices , this one was not meant to differentiate the gender. Rather preached Bonding and Hope.

But like everything else its interpretation has been lost over the centuries , it was misused and made all about women worshiping men. This was the Patriarchal mindset. Not the thought but the action of few. 

I am glad now ,it is more of a choice. I don't see people forcing someone for this fast, atleast to my knowledge and more and more men are also accompanying their partners. I repeat , let it be a choice if a woman wants Breast augmentations, botox, abortion or wants to starve her body for a day. As long as the reasons and the choices are all about her , why question or ridicule them.





joie de vivre

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joie de vivre

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Posted: 30 October 2013 at 2:19pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by BirdieNumNum


You cant respect certain choices women make, such as KC, because they put the woman at discomfort. Sounds like a one-night stand, no commitment, no sacrifice, no hard work. Great women's lib stuffLOL 



Not because they put women at discomfort. If you can't bother to read my previous posts again and counter my points, please at least don't come up with a lousy strawman argument. 

Furthermore, you're conflating too many disparate things here (one night stands?), and then have a pop at 'women's lib'. You sound like a certain type of desi person who has issues wrt some of the freedom's women enjoy in more permissive societies and cling to anachronistic traditions as some sort of talisman against this new breed of 'empowered woman'. Grow up.





Edited by joie de vivre - 30 October 2013 at 2:26pm

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