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Is Karvachauth wrong? (Page 3)

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shweta2728

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shweta2728

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Posted: 28 October 2013 at 1:59pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by BirdieNumNum



lemme be the dissenting opinion here.LOLI think karvachauth is one of the most beautiful rituals IF the woman can and wants to do it of her own free will and does not resent it. It brings romance and closeness and love that no amount of wining and dining can accomplish.LOL If society invents customs that men can observe, i'd also be all for it. Meanwhile, women who dont like the custom should not be trashing an occasion that a lot of other women look forward to on their own, and that makes the woman feel like a woman who belongs to her soul mate. It's as much about women feeling special as it is the guy. If we throw away all these rituals, we'd end up with relationships that are simply transactional, with all the attendant problems of the modern couple, give and take to a point where it just becomes a business exchange.Smile



I like how you displayed your thoughts! I was never against KC but you have taught me too see the topic from another view.

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silverbug

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Posted: 28 October 2013 at 8:32pm | IP Logged
right and wrong is subjective.
i believe that no one has the right to infringe upon the next person's liberty and freedom of choice. if she wants to keep karvachauth or wear a burqa out of choice, then its her decision.

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Posted: 29 October 2013 at 9:44am | IP Logged
Originally posted by joie de vivre

It's a relic of a shockingly misogynistic past. A woman's social status and worth is tied to her husband's existence, which is why she prays for his long life, because without him, she is worthless and a social pariah. India's treatment of widows has been - and remains to be -  absolutely and staggeringly barbaric. How ANY woman can NOT feel insulted by this load of drivel is beyond me. 
As for women 'choosing' to partake in this sh!t... it's a bit like Muslim women who choose to wear the burqa and call it their 'choice' or women who get boob-jobs and expect society to treat that as something not deserving censure because they are just exercising their volition. These women might be making a choice, but they are also entrenching misogyny and inequality and their actions indicate that they are victims of a culture of inescapable misogyny and sexism.

The sooner women come to their senses and stop showing totally unwarranted and unnecessary respect to their husbands, the sooner these men will learn how to see women as their equal. As for the in-laws, they should fu(k off to the darkest circle of hell or mind their own damn business. Cultural relativism shouldn't be used here as a get out of jail card in these cases. 



I agree that women should be treated equal to men. But you can't go about bringing equality if you actively disrespect women for making certain choices that are theirs to make alone. Islam does not force a woman to wear a burkha. But if she chooses to, then she deserves as much respect as a woman who doesn't. And if women get boob jobs, then it is their business, not yours. If it makes them feel more confident about their appearance, then hats off to them! I am happy that they're happy. Why are you assuming that women choose to dress the way they dress so as to get men's attention. They don't! It's for their own satisfaction! And similarly, if a woman chooses to fast for her husband, which I take as a sign of total devotion and love, and i reiterate, then everyone else should respect her decision!

Fasting has deep roots in Hinduism. It is a way of distancing yourself from your gross body (sthool sharir), because we believe that we are souls incarnated into bodies, but not the physical body itself. And fasting is a way of getting rid of gluttony, one of the sinful traits that keeps you attached to worldly pleasures and illusion. Your mind shouldn't be focused on moha, money, food and sex, but instead on higher thoughts. That is why we fast. When a woman fasts for Karvachauth, she is making a statement that she prizes her husband and his long life, above the bodily want for food.

Plus, we can't pick and choose which woman is worthy of our respect, because they all are! If someone forces a woman to fast, or get a boob job, or anything else, then yes, that is wrong. But if it is her own decision, then she should be allowed to do what she wants. You're objectifying women because you think that they all either adhere to certain rules, or rebel against the society that sets these rules. But in my opinion, a woman should be allowed to do whatever she wants and respected for it.

And I am a woman myself, and this kind of just puts me off. I'm sorry.

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return_to_hades

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Posted: 29 October 2013 at 11:24am | IP Logged
^^

There tends to be a very fine line between social conditioning and expectations vs. one's own free will.

 

A woman who gets breast augmentation may do it on her own with no pressure. She does it because she wants to look and feel great with bigger boobs. She tells herself that this is for me, because I love me'. Yet, despite that somewhere subliminally there can be the pressure - flat chest isn't attractive, men desire bigger boobs, you're pretty - but you could look prettier if only your boobs were bigger.

 

I think the something similar happens with burqua or ritual fasting. A woman who follows traditions is revered and elevated. She is described as honorable, loving, traditional, respectful and a lot of other praises. She is said to understand the importance of culture and preserve the romance and beauty behind traditions. Most women want to be treated special. No one wants to feel as if they lack any of these positive qualities. So many women engage in these traditions. They do it wholeheartedly and are exceptionally happy doing it. They don't feel that they have been forced. But at a subliminal level there is some conditioning.

 

Of course it is hard to separate the free will from conditioning. We would appear petty, nitpicky and ridiculous if we tried to distill every human action. We belong to society and we all do things to fit in more. So whether it is to keep a fast, get bigger boobs or whatever individual choice must be respected.

 

At the same time the message must be stated that you don't need to do anything to fit in or feel special or appear good. Every man and woman deserves the chance to be considered good and feel special, irrespective of their appearances or how strictly/loosely they adhere to tradition.


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shweta2728

BirdieNumNum

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Posted: 29 October 2013 at 12:08pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by return_to_hades

^^

There tends to be a very fine line between social conditioning and expectations vs. one's own free will.

 

A woman who gets breast augmentation may do it on her own with no pressure. She does it because she wants to look and feel great with bigger boobs. She tells herself that this is for me, because I love me'. Yet, despite that somewhere subliminally there can be the pressure - flat chest isn't attractive, men desire bigger boobs, you're pretty - but you could look prettier if only your boobs were bigger.

 

I think the something similar happens with burqua or ritual fasting. A woman who follows traditions is revered and elevated. She is described as honorable, loving, traditional, respectful and a lot of other praises. She is said to understand the importance of culture and preserve the romance and beauty behind traditions. Most women want to be treated special. No one wants to feel as if they lack any of these positive qualities. So many women engage in these traditions. They do it wholeheartedly and are exceptionally happy doing it. They don't feel that they have been forced. But at a subliminal level there is some conditioning.

 

Of course it is hard to separate the free will from conditioning. We would appear petty, nitpicky and ridiculous if we tried to distill every human action. We belong to society and we all do things to fit in more. So whether it is to keep a fast, get bigger boobs or whatever individual choice must be respected.

 

At the same time the message must be stated that you don't need to do anything to fit in or feel special or appear good. Every man and woman deserves the chance to be considered good and feel special, irrespective of their appearances or how strictly/loosely they adhere to tradition.



sure, no one has to do anything to feel special. Beautiful relationships just happen without any hard work and sacrifice. Hope we got that right?LOL i knew there's a reason i like valentines. All it takes is to decide who to go out with, call the flower shop, book a nice table at a classy restaurant, and it's done. It's a bed of roses all night after thatLOL

if you think about it, almost everything in life is either conditioning/ enironment/ nurture or it's genes. Now just because something is conditioning does not mean it's bad. We should in fact "condition" ourselves to do the "right" things. Societies function better if we do that. In the case of KC, we are not requiring others to fast. It does not infringe on other people's rights. It is all about the woman feeling special. So conditioning or not, how is that bad? Also, whether or not there is free will is debatable. Perhaps everything is conditioned,, but that shouldn't stop us from going about life assuming we are all responsible for our actions.So while you brought in some good points, they are mostly irrelevant imo. Smile


Edited by BirdieNumNum - 29 October 2013 at 1:10pm

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Posted: 29 October 2013 at 1:28pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by joie de vivre

It's a relic of a shockingly misogynistic past. A woman's social status and worth is tied to her husband's existence, which is why she prays for his long life, because without him, she is worthless and a social pariah. India's treatment of widows has been - and remains to be -  absolutely and staggeringly barbaric. How ANY woman can NOT feel insulted by this load of drivel is beyond me. 
As for women 'choosing' to partake in this sh!t... it's a bit like Muslim women who choose to wear the burqa and call it their 'choice' or women who get boob-jobs and expect society to treat that as something not deserving censure because they are just exercising their volition. These women might be making a choice, but they are also entrenching misogyny and inequality and their actions indicate that they are victims of a culture of inescapable misogyny and sexism.

The sooner women come to their senses and stop showing totally unwarranted and unnecessary respect to their husbands, the sooner these men will learn how to see women as their equal. As for the in-laws, they should fu(k off to the darkest circle of hell or mind their own damn business. Cultural relativism shouldn't be used here as a get out of jail card in these cases. 


do you think a woman might have other reasons to wish her husband a long life, other than  social status and self worth?LOL

the way you have it going, the institution of marriage itself is anachronistic. It subjects the woman through the agony of childbirth, the discomfort of having to breast feed (skip that,  it's powder milk), the need to be bonded in just one relationship. Sucks, doesn't it?TongueLOL


Edited by BirdieNumNum - 29 October 2013 at 1:28pm

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shweta2728

charminggenie

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Posted: 29 October 2013 at 1:38pm | IP Logged
@Mr Bird
what has world come to, I am agreeing with you on almost all the points. 

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return_to_hades

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Posted: 29 October 2013 at 2:04pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by BirdieNumNum


sure, no one has to do anything to feel special. Beautiful relationships just happen without any hard work and sacrifice. Hope we got that right?LOL i knew there's a reason i like valentines. All it takes is to decide who to go out with, call the flower shop, book a nice table at a classy restaurant, and it's done. It's a bed of roses all night after thatLOL

if you think about it, almost everything in life is either conditioning/ enironment/ nurture or it's genes. Now just because something is conditioning does not mean it's bad. We should in fact "condition" ourselves to do the "right" things. Societies function better if we do that. In the case of KC, we are not requiring others to fast. It does not infringe on other people's rights. It is all about the woman feeling special. So conditioning or not, how is that bad? Also, whether or not there is free will is debatable. Perhaps everything is conditioned,, but that shouldn't stop us from going about life assuming we are all responsible for our actions.So while you brought in some good points, they are mostly irrelevant imo. Smile


No denying that one should be conditioned' to do the right' things. But I don't see fasts or other rituals as right' or wrong'. There are many right' things in a relationship like faithfulness, respect, compromise, support, companionship and a whole lot more things that are reflected in everyday behavior. I never stated that people feel special without any effort. But right and wrong and goodness of a person is based on everyday general behavior - not merely by rituals.

 

Yes. Everything we do is conditioning in some way. And conditioning can be good, bad or neutral.

 

In my perspective

 

You will be a good husband/wife if you have a strong bond built on mutual trust, respect and compromise is good conditioning.

You will be a good wife if you fast and say prayers for your significant others is something I find borderline. A bit unfair and kind of illogical.

You can make yourself and your significant other feel loved and special through certain fasts and rituals if you wish to, is perhaps more palatable.

 

In the end an unfaithful or abusive spouse will be just that irrespective of any fasts or valentines day hooplas. A faithful, respectful spouse will always be one even if they don't keep fasts and forget a certain day.

                                                           


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