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Is Karvachauth wrong? (Page 12)

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K.Universe.

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K.Universe.

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Posted: 01 November 2013 at 10:29am | IP Logged
^^ Good analysis RTH.

I like to see a good analysis. A lot of people have made a lot of good points in this thread (Birdie, Genie, Angie, Aishu and a couple of others) but either they were "mere" points or counter arguments.

To your analysis - let's break it down a little bit. First let's ask ourselves where exactly the pain point lies. Is it the fasting? Say, a couple of women were to simply pray for their partner's long life, would it be acceptable without any qualms? And if these women were to do it silently, without much drama and without any pomp and show (gatherings,  gaiety, celebrations, sieves and reflections) would it make it better?



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charminggenie

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charminggenie

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Posted: 01 November 2013 at 10:53am | IP Logged
Good summary of the debate, Hadey!
Personally I am a pro choice person. Have seen this tradition being celebrated in the right spirit for a long time and i have witnessed its evolution to some extent as well. I for one would indulge in it depending on my mood and mindset at that particular time. But I have immense respect to anyone who keeps it as I understand from where they are coming from.

As far as it's misuse is concerned , well , the blame like you have mentioned doesn't lies with its concept more to do with the mindset of the people and how they interpret it. They will find hundred other ways to harp on the Patriarchal bandwagon. The solution to this point is not in diminishing or dismissing traditions like say KarvaChauth/Raksha Bandhan  but in making a healthy evolution of their practices with changing time. This way will be more organically and long lasting.

@K 
First let's ask ourselves where exactly the pain point lies. Is it the fasting? Say, a couple of women were to simply pray for their partner's long life, would it be acceptable without any qualms?

I doubt it matters in anyway, won't it question the faith of an individual and his way of worshiping.  if a woman is comfortable and is in a healthy condition to fast then should we object it. 

And if these women were to do it silently, without much drama and without any pomp and show (gatherings,  gaiety, celebrations, sieves and reflections) would it make it better? 

Why would it make any difference, the scale of celebration in no way reflect or measure the equality of gender or the impact of this on a woman's Psychology.  Too much cultural censorship?

Honestly, I feel the problem is much bigger and irrelevant to Karwa Chauth, if a woman is suffering from gender inequality or from a sexist mindset then a festive like it, might just be a usual vessel for her abuse not a precursor in any way. 

That is why I suggest traditions like Karwa Chauth should be used as a way not to remind us of gender inequality but to use it as a platform and empower women about themselves. And remind them that its their choice and right to enjoy the day as they feel like.





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AishuHiBawari

K.Universe.

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K.Universe.

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Posted: 01 November 2013 at 11:25am | IP Logged
Genie, I completely understand what you are saying. However, at this point, it is about addressing concerns, and allaying them if possible. Hand-waving the (potential) negativity this festival might cause in the society, will not solve anything. Ultimately, it's the society first and individuals later.

Couple of things about this festival that are sticking out, if I may play the devil's advocate:

1. Why make it public? Why announce it to the whole world that you are praying for your partner? Your partner, your life, right? Shouldn't this be a private affair?
2. Why one particular day of the year? What's special about this day that all the women are supposed to pray on this very day, not a day earlier and not a day later? Is the God only available on this day to listen to their prayers? Can they do it on different days, not attract undue attention and still let their prayers reach the ears of God?


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charminggenie

charminggenie

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Posted: 01 November 2013 at 11:41am | IP Logged
Originally posted by K.Universe.

Genie, I completely understand what you are saying. However, at this point, it is about addressing concerns, and allaying them if possible. Hand-waving the (potential) negativity this festival might cause in the society, will not solve anything. Ultimately, it's the society first and individuals later.

Couple of things about this festival that are sticking out, if I may play the devil's advocate:

1. Why make it public? Why announce it to the whole world that you are praying for your partner? Your partner, your life, right? Shouldn't this be a private affair?
K, Because this tradition was never meant to be private. You would have hordes of women in the society compound praying together. This is how it fabricated.There is no idol worshiping just exchanging stories of women valor between them.  if we make this personal , then won't the whole concept/tradition loose itself.
This became public because of electronic revolution - we are more aware of it because of movies , internet etc. In actuality its practice is in minority compared to the population. 

2. Why one particular day of the year? What's special about this day that all the women are supposed to pray on this very day, not a day earlier and not a day later? Is the God only available on this day to listen to their prayers? Can they do it on different days, not attract undue attention and still let their prayers reach the ears of God?
Now this is question, to my understanding does nothing to the concept of this debate. As it draws the attention towards another matter altogether, that is -existence of God, faith and the different ways we worship - which I believe is a very private and personal for every individual. And I just cannot debate on that. And what does we even mean by not drawing attention- would that stop gender insensitivity in any way?




If we are looking at the concerns here, then what stands to me are, the fears that this tradition might be misused to force Patriarchal mindset on women even at the cost of  their health and will. Another being that it might re-affirm the belief that men are superior to my gender. 

Shouldn't we now move towards how to alienate these glaring facts than to evaluate the ways we practice the tradition.


Edited by charminggenie - 01 November 2013 at 11:43am

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K.Universe._Angie_AishuHiBawari

K.Universe.

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K.Universe.

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Posted: 01 November 2013 at 12:10pm | IP Logged
Sounds good.

I was only looking at red flags and to my mind those are a) fasting b) ostentatious display

If the supporters of this festival were to compromise with those who oppose this festival, and vice-versa, I would say both parties might want to focus on these red flags (there are possibly more than what I listed)

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charminggenie_Angie_

charminggenie

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charminggenie

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Posted: 01 November 2013 at 12:29pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by K.Universe.

Sounds good.

I was only looking at red flags and to my mind those are a) fasting b) ostentatious display

If the supporters of this festival were to compromise with those who oppose this festival, and vice-versa, I would say both parties might want to focus on these red flags (there are possibly more than what I listed)


I like how you think here,

Fasting
Voluntary not forced. Health First. I have heard some women do drink water and eat fruits. This should be encouraged. 

Ostentatious display
Honestly its not really there, not much pressure on pocket as such. I believe weddings, other big festivals etc are more guilty to this. But there is no problem in making it more laid-back and hassle free. But I doubt the ladies would compromise on that mehendi, saree bling!

My red Flags

Society/Family pressure

Insensitivity of partners

Touching of feet etc etc (but that is not only coz of this tradition)

young girls having misguided idea about it!

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K.Universe._Angie_AishuHiBawari

K.Universe.

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K.Universe.

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Posted: 01 November 2013 at 12:42pm | IP Logged
^^ Alright then, I will let you good folks deal with those red flags. I have bigger problems to think about <cough> Universe<cough> Also, I need to pray for the long life of my bank balance; sure as hell it ain't going to pray for mine.

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OyeChupKar

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Posted: 03 November 2013 at 6:59am | IP Logged
Originally posted by joie de vivre

Originally posted by OyeChupKar

 She may choose not to observe this fast (if she is a hindu) so that her husband dies ASAPTongue And the more you're devoted to your religion, the more rewards you get. Not just in this world, but in the hereafter too. For me, the rewards I will get in the other world hold more importance than the one's I'll get here.

 
Any evidence to back up ANY these claims? 

I'm agnostic, but religions - ALL of them- are intrinsically misogynistic. They simply are. Often Hinduism gets off lightly, but it's rife with sexism. Personally, I'm not one of those people who thinks the world would be better off if religion just disappeared off the face of it, but it's important for societies to evolve and put pay to the more anachronistic aspects of religion, instead of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. 
What claims? the karwachauth one? To be honest, KC has no importance in my life as I am not a hindu , I can back up the Islamic claims though. 
You say all religions are intrinsically misogynistic. I don't know anything about ANY other religion other than my own- Islam. I've absolutely no idea how important a woman is in a hindu family or a christian family so I'll not speak about them. I am a Muslim female so I'll talk about my religion only ( which I think is not misogynistic at all ).
Islam may across as the most anti-feminist religion of all time. The Quran is very tough to understand so people end up misunderstanding most of its concepts.  The hijab especially helps in the growth of this misunderstanding. Did you know? Both men and women have hijab. Hijab is mainly about dressing modestly but there are other concepts behind it too. (And if i talk about it, it will take 500 words more- A prostitute with Hijab doesn't become a Muslim). Allah has balanced the role of both men and women in Islam.  Marriage cannot happen without the lady's permission and even a special form of divorce is prescribed for women.  A man is given the freedom to walk around without covering his head . A man cannot force his wife to work or claim any rights over her money. We have no concept of dowry. Even paradise lies at the feet of the mother.If I have to type down the importance of woman is Islam ( Especially in the hereafter) , I\ll take weeks.  So I'll stop here. But I hope to convince you that Islam is not anti-feminist. I am very bad at explaining and debating , so I dont know if I made any difference with this comment .
Thank you
and if you have time , please go through the first few lines of this -


Edited by OyeChupKar - 03 November 2013 at 7:19am

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