Is Karvachauth wrong? - Page 6

First Previous

Page

Next Last

Frequent Posters

return_to_hades

@return_to_hades

IF-Stunnerz

+ 6

Posted: 10 years ago

Originally posted by: charminggenie

Umm Don't think I agree with that Hades. The definition that you have given is way dated. The times and the situations it was made were different. This was never meant to be all about men, if you go by the folk tales that are exchanged during this festival , you would understand that all women talk are about themselves how Queen X and other women kept this fast when their husbands left for war. It was a choice then too! if you look at the actual Pooja, its always about the society women gathering together and exchanging that moment. This day was created to let them bond over a simple fact that their husbands have gone for long periods of war time.

Society and the festival itself has made it clear that its end or evolution is in an individual's hand. The choice if keeping it together or not observing it, is very much open to all. So I really don't see it as an inequality!

If the emphasis in history was bonding when men were away at war, then why did fasting become a focal point. Why did it spread to all women instead of wives of soldiers? Why didn't men start sharing the fast till recent times?

The present day festival is one of choice. But also one of unfair peer pressure a lot of times. We cannot deny that the history and roots despite free will have heavy patriarchal influences. It may not be a social evil. It may be one of choice. But that doesn't mean we cannot acknowledge that it is still lopsided and can be improved.

Quote

@K.Universe.

IF-Dazzler

Posted: 10 years ago

Originally posted by: return_to_hades
First lets determine which should keep the fast in a homosexual couple (especially two men), then we can discuss if it is unfair on them.

Which? I hope that's a typo for who, and not a deliberate faux pas.

As for the question, I would say alternative fasting for folks with alternative lifestyles :)

Quote

charminggenie

@charminggenie

IF-Stunnerz

+ 2

Posted: 10 years ago

Originally posted by: return_to_hades
[QUOTE=charminggeniet life. 🤔

We are talking about a time frame of history where most of our religious practices were based around fasting. Read Navratras, Teej etc. The mode or the general form of devotion had fasting as a prime factor.

And just for the knowledge this fast is not about starving- the MIL feed their DIls tonnes of goodies before the 1st sun break and again as soon as the moon is sighted , the culinary spread is all out for the ladies to feast on. Biologically , there is no starving happening here.

Why it spread to other women- well its a Northern Indian practice, during that time majority of the population including the royals as well as the natives were soldiers. See the number of wars that were fought and the number of soldiers who participated. And it spread, because most enjoyed this little ritual of dressing up , praying together etc etc. There was no harm per se . Just so you know this has become a fad now but till recently it was limited to particular section of Indian population.

Why men only recently started sharing it- it's a trick question right?- clubbing equality and Karwa Chauth?

See even for the major part of 20th century, not many women were working or educated . There was no sense of "equality in marriage" till recent times. It took women all this time to come out of their conditioning.

But it has nothing to do with Karwa Chauth - it never propagated inequality nor it does now. It is upto your interruption of it - the evolution in terms of its practice was always our choice. It is another matter it took a DDLJ wala Raj or current generation to bring the men in its fold. But why should we call it inequality if a man refuses to keep it, his choice and its his wife's choice whether she wants to do it or not!

I am glad you see it as a choice for the present. Tell me one scenario of our life where there is no peer pressure, but by being judgmental about this day aren't we also putting a sort of peer pressure. A woman practicing it now would be called as regressive or backward- what would we call to that evaluation?

It was loop-sided by choice during its inception and its is aligning itself towards the middle point by choice only. By all means customize it according to individual wants and preferences, why shun it though?

Quote

Aishwarya

@pakhara

IF-Rockerz

+ 2

Posted: 10 years ago

Originally posted by: joie de vivre

So basically in a nutshell, you're saying "that all women are worthy of respect be default of being a woman and all of their choices are equally valid."

YESS!! Ding ding ding! We have a winner! That is exactly what I believe! I believe that women, and not just women, but all people, should be treated with respect no matter a.) what religious/personal beliefs they have, b.) how they choose to dress, and c.) what they do to their own bodies. It just basically boils down to being a decent human being and respecting other people's choices, even if they are different from your own. As long as they are not harming anyone, or insulting anyone, what they decide to do, is up to them.

Originally posted by: joie de vive
Sorry. Yeah, feminism is about choices, but not all choices are feminist choices. There is nothing feminist (or even remotely rational) about fasting for your husband's health (when he isn't required to do the same) or aborting a female foetus or getting a boob job or walking around in a black tent. Do it, if you must, but don't please don't justify your choice as a feminist one. Just because someone "feels good" doing something, doesn't mean they are doing their bit in sustaining the social status-quo.

So, feminism is about choices, but, according to you, there are right choices and wrong choices. And if a woman makes a choice, that in your eyes is wrong, then she can't have your respect. And if we go further, that means that unless a woman conforms to your idea of an ideal woman, she shouldn't be respected. Sound like patriarchy much?

And you said that a woman is required to fast, while the man isn't. But I don't think you understand, a vrat has to be voluntary. Otherwise, it is not a vrat. A woman isn't forced to fast, neither is her husband. If she chooses to do so, then you should still respect her.
---
And @charminggenie, agree on every point!
Edited by AishuHiBawari - 10 years ago

Quote

BirdieNumNum

@BirdieNumNum

IF-Dazzler

Posted: 10 years ago

Originally posted by: K.Universe.

I will let him defend himself, but purely from a debating standpoint, his emphasis was always on strengthening the relationship between partners, by any means necessary.

That approach makes much more sense than the antagonistic attitude some folks are adopting here. You have to prove why this festival is bad for the society, with working examples, instead of going off on a tirade against those with a difference of opinion or attacking those who have a different take on this festival.

of course that was my point and thanks for explaining it so well to Joie. Hope she gets it now.😊

but given the virulence of the attacks, i am beginning to wonder if the women arguing against KC want to drag all women down to their level.😆 Just because they can't be bothered making an effort, they would rather not not look bad by comparison. It's like women who run down the concept of beauty because they might be ugly, or the lazy stupid kids who cant be bothered studying, so they would try to have exams cancelled even if it harms the ones who worked hard. Smart, very smart😆

Edited by BirdieNumNum - 10 years ago

Quote

BirdieNumNum

@BirdieNumNum

IF-Dazzler

Posted: 10 years ago

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

Karva chauth is it is popularly known and celebrated is a festival where the woman fasts for her husband's long life. Of course as times change many men do keep a fast with their wives or request that these traditions not be followed. But this is still a woman fasting for her man. It is an inequality.

While I respect a woman's choice to keep a fast, for society in the long term I would like to see either the festival end or evolve to something that is equal to both husband and wife.

This makes me wonder, can I fast for someone's short life. 🤔

of course,you can pray for anything. It's woman's choice after all. 😛Just ensure the negative energies you send out with those prayers don't come back to bite you in the rear.😆

Quote

Aishwarya

@pakhara

IF-Rockerz

+ 2

Posted: 10 years ago

Originally posted by: BirdieNumNum

of course that was my point and thanks for explaining it so well to Joie. Hope she gets it now.😊

but given the virulence of the attacks, i am beginning to wonder if the women arguing against KC want to drag all women down to their level.😆 Just because they can't be bothered making an effort, they would rather not not look bad by comparison. It's like women who run down the concept of beauty because they might be ugly, or the lazy stupid kids who cant be bothered studying, so they would try to have exams cancelled even if it harms the ones who worked hard. Smart, very smart😆

I agree with you on the point that people shouldn't deride women who choose to fast on Karvachauth. But there is no reason to make personal jabs at someone. And on a side note: I don't think external beauty is a measure of anyone's worth. That's just a very superficial way of looking at things.

Quote

BirdieNumNum

@BirdieNumNum

IF-Dazzler

Posted: 10 years ago

Originally posted by: AishuHiBawari
I agree with you on the point that people shouldn't deride women who choose to fast on Karvachauth. But there is no reason to make personal jabs at someone. And on a side note: I don't think external beauty is a measure of anyone's worth. That's just a very superficial way of looking at things.

and there's no reason for you to get so het up and hector me.😆 First it was an analogy- did you miss the word "like". Second, the fact i used two examples (ugly woman, stupid kid) should clue you to the fact that unless someone here is both, the statements could possibly not apply. So please.

and on the matter of external beauty etc., there we go again. For time immemorial, beauty is something that has inspired people. So why run it down? Other than one's core self and one's actions, is anything a measure of any worth? Is your ability to debate here a measure of your worth. Your money? The friends? The family? Go down the spiritual chain, and there is just one core that is worth it, with everything just a wrapping around it. But meanwhile, you do debate here, dont you?

sorry, just in a fcuking argumentative mood today.

Quote

_Angie_

@_Angie_

IF-Sizzlerz

Posted: 10 years ago

Interesting view points everyone. There is no dispute that a woman should have the freedom to choose whether she wants to follow a tradition or not and also to what extent she would like to comply with it. Customs start off with a good and reasonable intent but take an ominous turn when rigidity and compulsion sets in. Fasting for one's husband for a day is no big deal for most Indian women who willingly sacrifice and put up with a lot more for their loved ones. Lot of it anyway goes unnoticed and unappreciated. To prove equality I don't think it is necessary for a husband to fast with the wife though he is welcome to do that if it pleases him. There are many other ways to express solidarity. That there is no festival where men can express their gratitude or love for the women in their lives is a glaring anomaly.

Do women celebrating the KC festival feel discriminated? I don't think so. Most of them take it as a change from routine and do enjoy the day off from the usual drudgery of the kitchen as they are not supposed to be using any knife, needle , or sharps on that day. Going without water is tough but many seem to enjoy decking up in their finery and look forward to the opportunity to bond with other women in the locality. At the same time it may be difficult for some working women to follow rituals in its totality. The compulsion some feel to keep the fast inspite of pregnancy or ill health like fever, diabetes, is to be deplored and strongly discouraged. How many men have the sense to put their foot down in such cases? Especially those that are living with their parents and other relatives. It is not only women who feel the pressure of fitting in with their in-laws and society but also men who often fail to speak up when they are required to. Like with every practice there will always be some who carry things to stupid extremities. Case in point is this chap who forced his wife to drink phenyl for refusing to fast for his long life!

Now we also have girls and boys who have taken the festival as a fad and declare their commitments to their partners by having kept the fast and prayers for their ex- partners the previous year, and for the current ones this year and intend to continue with the practice for their future partners too. How is that for non discrimination and sincerity of purpose and tradition!

Quote

Aishwarya

@pakhara

IF-Rockerz

+ 2

Posted: 10 years ago

Originally posted by: BirdieNumNum

and there's no reason for you to get so het up and hector me.😆 First it was an analogy- did you miss the word "like". Second, the fact i used two examples (ugly woman, stupid kid) should clue you to the fact that unless someone here is both, the statements could possibly not apply. So please.

and on the matter of external beauty etc., there we go again. For time immemorial, beauty is something that has inspired people. So why run it down? Other than one's core self and one's actions, is anything a measure of any worth? Is your ability to debate here a measure of your worth. Your money? The friends? The family? Go down the spiritual chain, and there is just one core that is worth it, with everything just a wrapping around it. But meanwhile, you do debate here, dont you?

sorry, just in a fcuking argumentative mood today.

I was not hectoring you. It's just that your analogy could very easily be taken as offensive. You compared someone who chooses not to participate in KC to an ugly person who doesn't like the idea of beauty and a stupid student who doesn't want to study. Don't you see how that can be offensive? We had this whole debate about how people who chose to fast should be respected. It works the other way as well. People who choose not to fast should be respected, too.

And I'm not saying that beauty is a bad thing. It's just that the idea of beauty is extremely subjective. What I think is beautiful, you might not. There is no set standard, and I don't think you can ever quantify beauty. So, to call someone "ugly" is just an extremely useless statement because that only means that the person referred to doesn't fit into your idea of beauty, but might in someone else's perspective. What's worse is when the way you look makes other people treat you differently. There is nothing wrong with thinking someone or something is beautiful, but if you treat that person differently than a regular person, that is bad. And plus, your external appearance doesn't reflect anything on your character. You look like your parents, who looked like their parents. That doesn't say anything about what kind of a person you are. But your actions, what you do, what you say, and even your knowledge, to an extent, do. In other words, it's what's on the inside that counts.
Edited by AishuHiBawari - 10 years ago

Quote

1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 ... 12

Wrong