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Lord krishna--real hero or villain of mahabharat?? (Page 4)

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Posted: 05 September 2013 at 9:22am | IP Logged
Originally posted by .Vrish.

Drona did not submit to any weakness - he had the same weakness for his son that Dhritarashtra had.  He taught Ashwatthama all sorts of weapons that the latter didn't deserve.  He genuinely believed what Yudhisthir told him - no one else, not even Arjun, could have convinced him that.  Drona was as evil as the rulers he was supporting - Dhritarashtra & Duryodhan.

On the above, one of the things Krishna offered Karna when he met him was that if he joined the Pandavas, Panchali would marry him as well and have his son as well.  Karna of course declined, saying that he regretted how he had insulted her in that sabha.

Really? When Abhimanyu had already got married and the other upa pandavas would be around 16-17 ?

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Posted: 05 September 2013 at 4:41pm | IP Logged
Section CXL is what has it.  Sixth period presumably means that after Draupadi has performed her conjugal duties to YBANS, she'd go to Karna before going back to Yudhisthir.  Whether they would get a son as a result of that was unmentioned.

"Vasudeva said, 'O son of Radha, thou hast worshipped many Brahmanas fully conversant with the Vedas. With concentrated attention and mind free from envy thou hast also (on many an occasion) enquired of them after truth. Thou knowest, therefore, O Karna, what the eternal saying of the Vedas are. Thou art also well-versed in all the subtle conclusions of the scriptures. It is said by those conversant with the scriptures that the two kinds of sons called Kanina and Sahoda that are born of a maiden, have him for their father who weddeth the maid. Thou, O Karna, hast been born in this way. Thou art, therefore, morally the son of Pandu. Come, be a king, according to the injunction of the scriptures. On the side of thy father, thou hast the sons of Pritha, on the side of thy mother, thou hast the Vrishnis, (for thy kinsmen). O bull among men, know that thou hast these two for thy own. Proceeding this very day with me hence, O sire, let the Pandavas know thee as a son of Kunti born before Yudhishthira. The brothers, the five Pandavas, the son of Draupadi, and the invincible son of Subhadra, will all embrace thy feet. All the kings and princes, again, that have been assembled for the Pandava-cause, and all the Andhakas and Vrishnis, will also embrace thy feet. Let queens and princesses bring golden and silver and earthen jars (full of water) and delicious herbs and all kinds of seeds and gems, and creepers, for thy installation. During the sixth period, Draupadi also will come to thee (as a wife). Let that best of Brahmanas, Dhaumya, of restrained soul, pour libations of clarified butter on the (sacred) fire, and let those Brahmanas regarding all the four Vedas as authoritative (and who are acting as priests unto the Pandavas), perform the ceremony of thy installation. Let the family priest of the Pandavas who is devoted to Vedic rites, and those bulls among men-those brothers, the five sons of Pandu,--and the five sons of Draupadi, and the Panchalas, and the Chedis, and myself also, install thee as the lord of the whole earth. Let Dharma's son Yudhishthira, of righteous soul and rigid vows, be thy heir presumptive, ruling the kingdom under thee. Holding the white chamara in his hand (for fanning thee), let Yudhishthira, the son of Kunti, ride on the same car behind thee. After thy installation is over, let that other son of Kunti, the mighty Bhimasena, hold the white umbrella over thy head. Indeed, Arjuna then will drive thy car furnished with a hundred tinkling bells, its sides covered with tiger-skins, and with white steeds harnessed to it. Then Nakula and Sahadeva, and the five sons of Draupadi, and the Panchalas with that mighty car-warrior Sikhandin, will all proceed behind thee. I myself, with all the Andhakas and the Vrishnis, will walk behind thee. Indeed, all the Dasarhas and the Dasarnas, will, O king, be numbered with thy relatives. Enjoy the sovereignty of the earth, O thou of mighty arms, with thy brothers the Pandavas, with yapas and homas and auspicious rites of diverse kinds performed in thy honour. Let the Dravidas, with the Kuntalas, the Andhras, and the Talacharas, and the Shuchupas, and the Venupas, all walk before thee. Let chanters and panegyrists praise thee with innumerable laudatory hymns. Let the Pandavas proclaim,--Victory to Vasusena. Surrounded by the Pandavas, like the moon by the stars, rule thou the kingdom, O son of Kunti, and gladden Kunti herself. Let thy friends rejoice, and thy enemies grieve. Let there be, this day, a brotherly union between thee and thy brothers, the sons of Pandu."


Edited by .Vrish. - 05 September 2013 at 4:43pm

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Posted: 06 September 2013 at 2:22am | IP Logged
Thanks, Vrish. But I feel Krishna is at his sarcastic best here. 

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Posted: 06 September 2013 at 3:05am | IP Logged
So you think he was trying more to undermine Karna, rather than win him over to the Pandavas? LOL
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Posted: 06 September 2013 at 3:28am | IP Logged
Naturally. How can Krishna even suggest that Bhima / Arjuna will clasp his feet? Perhaps Yudhishtira might have, given his misplaced sense of ideals, but it would have been impossible for Arjuna and Bhima to let bygones be bygones and welcome Karna as a brother. 
And offering him Draupadi? Surely Krishna was not serious. Imagine if Karna had indeed accepted his offer, with what face would Krishna have gone and informed Draupadi "Hey- Congrats- you have got a one more husband?" Wouldn't he have been afraid of Draupadi coming down on him like a ton of bricks?


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Posted: 06 September 2013 at 3:50am | IP Logged
Draupadi getting one more hubby would be far fetched, but the other things, Bhima & Arjun at his feet wouldn't be - they were after all his younger brothers.
Unlike Duryodhan, Karna did not start w/ a hatred of the Pandavas - that hatred started at their end, and neither Kunti nor Krishna bothered to introduce them and clear that misunderstanding.  Arjun saw Karna as a threat, and Duryodhan converted it into reality by bringing him into his circle as an ally.  All Karna did was duplicate all of Arjun's feats at that exhibition, and that pissed off Bhima & Arjun.

However, Karna too realized that if he did accept, aside from his debts to Duryodhan, Draupadi wouldn't get the justice that she deserved - of having him dead, which is one of the reasons he declined.  That's why both Krishna & Kunti were wrong in approaching him as late as they did.  Had they done it after that exhibition, Karna could have been reconciled, and not insulted her in the first place.  He may even have won Draupadi @ the swayamvar.

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Posted: 11 September 2013 at 9:57am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Atiratha

My view regarding Krishna's own agenda in the Mahabharat:
-First, let's put aside the myth of man-god thing, and think objectively
-About him as the greatest in all fields, politics & art of war, including handling 4 horses without sarathy, or being mightiest archer even surpass Arjun or Karan or Bhishma as written in one posted earlier in this thread, It's nowhere mentioned! Krishna even had difficulties and sustained injuries fighting Shisupal alone on chariot during Rajasuya(those throwing chakram in the sabha scene is a fake television version). This same Shisupal willingly submit to Bheem when he came to Chedi in his Digvijay.
-He lost to Jarasandha, that's a fact, they migrated from Mathura to the west coast and build Dvarka. That means nobody in Yadav not even Balaram or their greatest archer Satyaki can deal with Jarasandha, whom Karan & Bheem can defeat easily.
-He had to settle a score with Jarasandha. But he need somebody more powerful than him. He must've heard about his cousin's conflict in Hastinapur and how they survived the burning attempt by Kaurav. Of course he must've heard,along the story there's somekind of bond between Vidur-Krishna-Kunti (see how Vidur sent someone to dig tunnel, Kunti invited 5 men & 1 woman, and Krishna came to swayamvara to make sure Pandavs survived, much later Krishna also stayed in Vidur's house when visiting hastinapur). Remember that Kunti was also a Yadav & stayed with Vidur.
-Krishna is an "inside man" in Panchal also. He was close to Draupadi and he came to the swayamvar not to compete. He must've designed the swayamvar with Drupad to lure Arjun out. After Arjun won, that's where he came out to introduce himself to Pandavs.
- Remember Panchal & Hastinapur were like US & Sovyet in the cold war era, and Drona just made it worse with his Gurudhaksina, so 5 exiled powerful princes of Hastinapur & their internal conflicts are important to both Drupad & Krishna!
- From there Krishna rules. He managed to set a fight between Bheem and Jarasandh, and one goal completed!
- Krishna also helped Arjun to clean up the Kandavaprashta forest, with the help of Agni & Varuna who supplied them with weaponry (note how Agni & Varuna conspire against their leader Indra), massacred the naga tribal and win the friendship of Indra, former ally of the Naga! Who do you think pay for the great palace of Indraprashta? Look at the name itself :) Later Indra also supplied Arjun with sophisticated weapons when Arjun visited him and help him massacre the Nivatakavachas tribe with weapon of massive destruction made by Indra!
- Furthermore Krishna arranged Subadra's abduction by Arjun to make sure the political bond with Pandavs, and after that his goal is to put his sister's descendant on the throne of Hastinapur (the largest kingdom at that time) JUST LIKE SHAKUNI ON KAURAV'S SIDE
- First, he must make sure the war happen, otherwise there's no chance to get to the throne! Despite being a messenger of peace he promised Draupadi the war, so he speak in a manner that burn Duryodhan's anger. He's always more to the war, also during the meeting in Matsya, which even Balaram disagree.
-This is an important note for my later points, Kritavarma & Satyaki work together with Krishna when Duryodhan wanted to capture him as the messenger. Later on Krishna chose Kritavarma to lead the Narayanisena troops that he promised Duryodhan, while mighty Satyaki remains on his side. And yes, Krishna kept his family away from the war! So I dont believe how great is Pradyumna etc, not battle-proven, except losing to Magadha much earlier!
- There's one more thing stand in the way of Krishna's goal, Karan the mightiest car-warrior, dangerous for Krishna's best friend, Arjun also! Again he played well with Kunti revealing Karan's identity, depleting his spirit for war! Indra in addition also destroyed Karan's morale by taking away his armor inherited from his biological father he never knew.
- Kurukshetra War is just Krishna's version of Game of Dice. It's his stage, not Shakuni. I won't talk too much on how they tricked Bhishma, Drona, Karan to death, you all know already.
-Like I said before, Krishna wanted his sister's descendant to be the king, at least after the Pandavs. Out of his calculation, Abhimanyu died trapped in Chakravyuh when he was away coz Arjun ordered him to drive the chariot chasing the Trigarthas to the other side
-Good thing that Uttara was pregnant with Abhimanyu's child!
- Krishna must MAKE WAY to the baby to become Future King!
- It's not easy, there was Ghatotkach, FIRSTBORN son of Padavs, dearer to King Yudhisthir than any other nephews,even than Yudhis's own son Prativindhya, Ghatotkach is the only child who spent much time helping them in the forest during exile. But, Krishna got him through Karan's prototype weapon!
- Next was Prativindhya & his 4 brothers, sons of Draupadi! This is where Krishna must play his pawn Kritavarma! Ashvatthama promised Duryodhan to kill Pandavs, and he along with Kripa & Kritavarma planned a night raid!
- Ashvatthama mistakenly killed Pandavs's 5 sons, thinking that it's their fathers. Ashvatthama never knew them closely, but KRITAVARMA KNEW THEM PERSONALLY. THE 5 SONS WERE RAISED IN DWARKA along with Abhimanyu! He won't mistake them for Pandavs!
- Earlier I've shown the Yadavs brotherhood of Krishna, Satyaki, & KRITAVARMA. Krishna also bring Satyaki and 5 Pandavs away from the camp in the night when Asvhatthama & Kritavarma came!
- After the night raid, Krishna cursed Ashvatthama to direct eveyone's blame on him, while KRITAVARMA THE DOUBLE AGENT CAN GO HOME WITH SATYAKI happily ever after :D
- Much later we found Satyaki & Kritavarma got drunk together, mocking each other's evil deeds on the war, resulting in Yadavs' massive brawl.. It's a karma, and Krishna was involved also after his son Pradyumna & his brother Gada died.
- But actually his effort was a success, at the end Pariksit grandson of Subadra sit on the throne of Hastinapur & Krishna's grandson Vajra got the Indraprashta..
- Well done KRISHNA... The "Shakuni" of pandavs side :)
Winner writes history, Krishna is God, Shakuni is Evil..

My good man, were you present during the Rajasuya Yagna? You seem to have taken notes from Sishupala on Krishnaninda. Of course, Krishna won't mind anything you say about him, but please, equating Him with Shakuni?

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Posted: 11 September 2013 at 10:17pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by Atiratha


- No I wasn't there. Do you READ Vyasa's original text or you only believe BR Chopra version about Rajasuya? Find it in sacred-text.com, mahabharat translated by Kisari Mohan Ganguli!
- Sishupal challenged Krishna, they went out, get on their chariot, a battle happened, both of them bleed so bad until at the end Krishna managed to throw his chakram decapitated Shisupal. This NEVER HAPPENS ON TV! I bet it wont be there in Starplus' version also!
- Shakuni? Of course both of them are advisor on each side, both of them WANT DESCENDANT OF THEIR SISTER TO INHERIT THE THRONES. (Either from Gandhari or Subadra). Politics are evil, my dear brother..

One sec.. in Srimad Bhagavatam Krishna just decapitates Sisupala, and...
In Sacred Texts I read that after Sisupaala finishes his 100 Insults Of Krishna and starts with the 101st one, Krishna just beheads him.

While Sisupala was speaking thus, the exalted slayer of Madhu thought in his mind of the discus that humbleth the pride of the Asuras. And as soon as the discus came into his hands, skilled in speech the illustrious one loudly uttered these words,--'Listen ye lords of earth, why this one had hitherto been pardoned by me. As asked by his mother, a hundred offences (of his) were to be pardoned by me. Even this was the boon she had asked, and even this I granted her. That number, ye kings, hath become full. I shall now slay him in your presence, ye monarchs.' Having said this, the chief of the Yadus, that slayer of all foes, in anger, instantly cut off the head of the ruler of Chedi by means of his discus. And the mighty-armed one fell down like a cliff struck with thunder. And, O monarch, the assembled kings then beheld a fierce energy, like unto the sun in the sky, issue out of the body of the king of Chedi, and O king, that energy then adored Krishna, possessed of eyes like lotus leaves and worshipped by all the worlds, and entered his body. And all the kings beholding the energy which entered that mighty-armed chief of men regarded it as wonderful. And when Krishna had slain the king of Chedi, the sky, though cloudless, poured showers of rain, and blasting thunders were hurled, and the earth itself began to tremble. There were some among the kings who spoke not a word during those unspeakable moments but merely sat gazing at Janarddana. And some there were that rubbed in rage their palms with their forefingers. And there were others who deprived of reason by rage bit their lips with their teeth. And some amongst the kings applauded him of the Vrishni race in private. And some there were that became excited with anger; while others became mediators. The great Rishis with pleased hearts praised Kesava and went away. And all the high-souled Brahmanas and the mighty kings that were there, beholding Krishna's prowess, became glad at heart and praised him.

So where is the big fight?



Edited by Surya_krsnbhakt - 11 September 2013 at 10:16pm

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