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Crisp Bytes SC - 16th aug 13 (Page 18)

Arshics IF-Sizzlerz
Arshics
Arshics

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Posted: 17 August 2013 at 9:53pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by IdiotViewer

Originally posted by Arshics

Yes, ivy, it's about haq and hadd here too. 

Once a girl is married, even today, her parents would hesitate to visit her, ladki ke ghar ka paani peena bhi paap hai. 

Though not practiced so rigidly, it is still a mindset in the older generation in north India, abt Gujarat, maybe Hgg and smrth can enlighten us. My mom will come and stay to babysit my girls when I and my husband are traveling, but for a holiday - it still has to be the reverse, to go to a bti's house just like that is still a no no for her! 

And in the rural context, the rigidity is bound to be higher, that is one mindset which still prevails, though not as strongly as shown here. 

So again brings me back to ' but she is not even coming back' said to Dukhba when she assured him that he had taken care of her

It had seemed odd then , but correlate it to beti parayi ho gayi - that he could care for Dukhba, because she let him, she came back into his house, so she gave him back the haq to care for her. 

And Kumud by not coming back, has reminded him of his hadd, could that be the significance of these lines? 

Your brilliant brilliant interpretation of the story as defined by hadd and haq - isn't that what's happening with VC , too? 

Since parents, extended parents can't go to the sasural, but younger siblings, particularly sisters are exempt from this rule, kusum then becomes the natural choice to go to Kumud's sasural . 

Again hadd and haq here! 

And smrth - that one incongruous sounding line, so out of place then , was the crux of the scene - amazing catch from you, as always! 

Kya karain, apni tube light der se jalti hai! 

Beauty and potential of CB again in action, Arshi Clap All of us hold puzzle pieces, its just a matter of them fitting... Sometimes not in time, but still, der aaye, durust aaye Embarrassed

I am entirely bereft of contextual desi social knowledge so really appreciate all this background. 

So hadd and haq functions on so many levels of narrative here... Once again brilliant application... You are on a roll, Arshi. And thank you smrth Bhai, for repeated 'insistence' Clap

Bold: Yes, Arshi, this makes sense. As you say it has never been so outright depicted perhaps that's why we (yours truly, esp) were left floundering... But at this point, I'd prefer VC to at least verbalize some of his hadd's... Maybe we might get some sense of it, monday, itself. So sending Kusum, will be them both staying within hadd and exercising 'haqq' on Kumud as well, making the best of whatever societal constraints they now face with a married daughter, sentenced to a cruel fate. Crucially, a daughter who has opted to live that fate. 

Also to free-wheel here a bit... That 'haqq' lies with BD now? A BD, as per how we saw him last, left with a pricked and uneasy conscience... Reform Pramad aside, but if BD remains as conscious about Kumud still, this may lead to the discussions we had about that significance of beta/naukar motif's... One 'son' may very well replace another. This will be palatable to SP's version of 'Nayi Soch' as well... Again someone else will take decision (BD), and for overall good this time, with elders blessings, the estranged lovers may be re-united. Post Pramad-demise, of course. He has to die =)


Yes, Ivy. The haq completely lies with BD, and the responsibility of of Gun and VC, is transferred to Saubhagya Devi and BD. 

So she gives her the mamta, and he the protection - 'agar bahu ne shikayat ki toh...' Sending Saras to lookout for them etc. 

So the significance of Saras as the beta becomes important here. Also remember, she was made BD ki bahu, marrying his son, not pramaad ki patni, pramaad was not considered while fixing this match. 

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hotdogg-Ivy-happychappytwila

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Posted: 17 August 2013 at 10:04pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by Arshics

Yes, Kumud is an outsider now, they have via marriage, transferred the most active of their haqq's on her to BD's... Might go in some ways to explaining their 'passivity' regarding her even? The hesitance to call, the fear to outright ask questions etc... And perhaps underscores Kumud's stand too, that I cannot come back, I have to make a go of my marriage...

Yes, ivy, it's about haq and hadd here too. 

Once a girl is married, even today, her parents would hesitate to visit her, ladki ke ghar ka paani peena bhi paap hai. 

Though not practiced so rigidly, it is still a mindset in the older generation in north India, abt Gujarat, maybe Hgg and smrth can enlighten us. My mom will come and stay to babysit my girls when I and my husband are traveling, but for a holiday - it still has to be the reverse, to go to a bti's house just like that is still a no no for her! 

It had seemed odd then , but correlate it to beti parayi ho gayi - that he could care for Dukhba, because she let him, she came back into his house, so she gave him back the haq to care for her. 

And Kumud by not coming back, has reminded him of his hadd, could that be the significance of these lines? 

Your brilliant brilliant interpretation of the story as defined by hadd and haq - isn't that what's happening with VC , too? 

Since parents, extended parents can't go to the sasural, but younger siblings, particularly sisters are exempt from this rule, kusum then becomes the natural choice to go to Kumud's sasural . 

Again hadd and haq here! 

And smrth - that one incongruous sounding line, so out of place then , was the crux of the scene - amazing catch from you, as always! 

Kya karain, apni tube light der se jalti hai! 


Arshi & Ivy-
Eureka! Please take a bow!!!

smrth-
@ Bold ...looks like we have reconcilation on VC Clap- both our perspectives are right but we were not able to connect the dots..

..And the Hadd & Haq equation resolves the behaviour discrepancy without sacrificing the character ...Thumbs Up
- your POV >> the passivity of VC character in last epi (now bounded by the Hadd though wanting to act with Haq he would want)
- my POV >> wish there was more active followup and kusum joining kumud (if true)  where active followup is still done (Haq) but within the parameters defined by the Hadd.

@ Red-
Yes this is so very true. We have that cultural obligations which go very deep. My FIL is a pretty modern 'with-it' person...yet he has this same thing about Beti Ke Ghar Ka Paani Bhi Nahin Peete...now of course he doesn't do this literally...but you should see the convolutions he goes through to square off 'accounts'... Wink

For e.g. We go out for a dinner and I pay...then within a few days he sends over a box of sweets or some such whose value would be more or less equal to his portion of the dinner tab...or if we go for a long drive or something... when I pay for the tolls presto at lunch / dinner he will do the 'setting' with the waiter then to hand over the food bill to him and not to me..that's one comic scene...the poor confused waiter and 2 guys saying ..give the bill to me!...Smile

Initially I used to not allow him to pick up any tab...but then he actually requested my wife to 'advise' me...(it was an off the records conversation between them, so I still officially don't know he's had this talk! Tongue) ...his request was that despite the modern world and the fact that the amounts in question are so insignificant...as per his cultural upbringing each time he did not square off the 'accounts' he would continue to feel he was breaking the tabboo...and would then feel more anxious that by him breaking such a tabboo some harm might fall on us...

So now both of us allow him to square off accounts when we go out ... so as to reduce his overall anxiety...    




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-Ivy-happychappytwilaArshics

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Posted: 17 August 2013 at 10:07pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by Arshics


Yes, Ivy. The haq completely lies with BD, and the responsibility of of Gun and VC, is transferred to Saubhagya Devi and BD. 

So she gives her the mamta, and he the protection - 'agar bahu ne shikayat ki toh...' Sending Saras to lookout for them etc. 

So the significance of Saras as the beta becomes important here. Also remember, she was made BD ki bahu, marrying his son, not pramaad ki patni, pramaad was not considered while fixing this match. 

Right Arshi, I can discern two strands here, with building blocks being put in place for both:

First strand: Saras - Kumud - Kusum (their strive to do 'right', to not bring disrepute to elders)

Saras' vow, Kumud's resolve, Kusum's 'support' - all to make reform Pramad and make marriage work

Second strand: VC - Gun - BD - SD (the Elders and their eventual decisions)

VC's haqq transferred to a BD who thinks the world of Saras, he will even more so as Saras continues to save and protect his family... Being the 'beta' Pramad never was, by P's own admission. 

Bold: Also, add to that, the fact that Kumud has been fulfilling marriage rituals with beta 'Saras'... Even for pagh-phera she will return to sasuraal with him. 

So, both of these strands to culminate, needs but one catalyst: Pramad's death. It is imperative that even if reform succeeds, that it must be cut short by demise. Pramad is the anomaly here. Remove him, and equation makes sense. 


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mini7hotdoggtwilaArshics

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Posted: 17 August 2013 at 10:21pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by IdiotViewer

Originally posted by Arshics


Yes, Ivy. The haq completely lies with BD, and the responsibility of of Gun and VC, is transferred to Saubhagya Devi and BD. 

So she gives her the mamta, and he the protection - 'agar bahu ne shikayat ki toh...' Sending Saras to lookout for them etc. 

So the significance of Saras as the beta becomes important here. Also remember, she was made BD ki bahu, marrying his son, not pramaad ki patni, pramaad was not considered while fixing this match. 

Right Arshi, I can discern two strands here, with building blocks being put in place for both:

First strand: Saras - Kumud - Kusum (their strive to do 'right', to not bring disrepute to elders)

Saras' vow, Kumud's resolve, Kusum's 'support' - all to make reform Pramad and make marriage work

Second strand: VC - Gun - BD - SD (the Elders and their eventual decisions)

VC's haqq transferred to a BD who thinks the world of Saras, he will even more so as Saras continues to save and protect his family... Being the 'beta' Pramad never was, by P's own admission. 

Bold: Also, add to that, the fact that Kumud has been fulfilling marriage rituals with beta 'Saras'... Even for pagh-phera she will return to sasuraal with him. 

So, both of these strands to culminate, needs but one catalyst: Pramad's death. It is imperative that even if reform succeeds, that it must be cut short by demise. Pramad is the anomaly here. Remove him, and equation makes sense. 


Oh yes 
Pramaad must die 

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-Ivy-twila

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Posted: 17 August 2013 at 10:26pm | IP Logged
look how bad we are...

openly praying for Pramad's demise...when all the poor guy wanted to do was eat, sleep, drink, pray(?) & love (kalika, padma)

LOL



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Posted: 17 August 2013 at 10:31pm | IP Logged
Hgg bhai, loved the anecdotal exposition LOL Very enlightening also, for someone foreign to it all Embarrassed

Yes, we are mean to 'Prammy' Tongue I am still waiting for Padma to come... It will be an interesting parallel, Pramad so intent on finding up "Saraswatichandra" and Navin stumbles upon Padma instead... LOL


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twilahappychappyArshics

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Posted: 17 August 2013 at 11:52pm | IP Logged
guys...

just spoke to a superior being...dear wife...who wants us to go out today and said why am  I still stuck to my laptop...and enough already types...

After I told her what we were discussing ...she's explained to me as if she was explaining to a baby...she's made a few points which I am putting down which further neatly explains VC...

She also has in her dangerously sweet look said...there I have solved your problem...now lets go!

So quickly penning this down...

 
VC - The character:
- He is a strong, active character...he still is.
- However, passivity is because VC is reeling under extreme loss of his own judgement & self-confidence.

Why?
1) First he had P's rista. He overruled this and using his judgement / trust he decided to go for saras. His reasoning was that saras is my best friend's son and this rishta is 100% on. Even when saras visited RN, he was going all jamai raja types.

2) His judgement /trust  was proved wrong that time when he came to know that saras had rejected the proposal. (#1)

3) Saras proposed again. He again used his judgement/trust and accepted the proposal. Saras behavior while in RN had revived his trust. There was a scene where there is a FB of the saras proposal, where VC says that "Mujhe tumhare pe ab aur bhi zyada bharosa hai."

4) His judgement / trust was broken again. (#2)

5) At this stage, two forces were at play
(i) when his judgement / trust was broken again...he was in uncharted territory...because all his old assessment metrics were broken...So all decisions taken in this state were instinctive.
(ii) in anger / shock / shattering of his trust, he wanted to compensate...and prove espectially to LN / saras that they were wrong in rejecting kumud...simply by getting kumud married to a still bigger family without anyone's help / pity ...all the dialogues of isse bhi bada rishta... 

6) In gujrat ...even now... I can vouch for this because me and my wife have stood on the side of some of her cousins against their parents ... in arranged marriages, people still give importance largely to the family - Is the family of good standing in society, Is the family secure financially -  with the groom whom they are getting their daughter married coming as a distant secondary... (I can personally count as I write, a few  Laurel & Hardy type jodis, often with the lady the better of the couple)... This is understable from a cultural perspective...in a tradtionally enterpreneurial trading community...

7) So VC did not even bother to inquire about Pramad...as long as his cross-checks of BD the family were getting checklisted.

8) After the wedding when news started to percolate about Pramad..and he came back to his senses...he started to feel anxious...THEN he started to find out more about the groom...

9) He kept discounting all of the above...just hoping and praying that he was right

10) Then when he saw Pramad drunk...his judgement / trust was shattered again (#3).
This was the most horrific and shattering event. He is now totally at sea.

11) A Woman's perspective here >>
-A woman can and will upfront share all her feelings / status to her mother..without leaving anything out ...which kumud did with DB.
- However, no matter how close she is to her father...she will never ever share the details unless asked persistently.
- Add to this the fact that kumud has her own reason not to share everyting with her family.

12) for VC ... 3 times of trust / judgement shattering...he is broken ...the impact is so severe that he has zero trust on his own decision making capacity...he is now totally scared about taking any decision AND applying it on Kumud...because he's shit scared that he's will screw up her life more... the dialogue where he says he now has no right to take any decision for kumud...with kumud replying that he still has the right to take decisions for him.

THIS IS WHY he is not asking kumud to stay back / react...and goes out and cries due to the utter helplessness he feels...he is all the more shattered that screwed up DB's life too!!

Kumud - The character
1) Kumud is a "Vatt No Katko"... Vatt meaning not ego & Katko meaning a piece...Vatt denotes a very high level of self-esteem / self-respect...which often is mistaken for arrogance...sort of like 'Mera Chehra Dekhe Bina Hi Naa Kaise Bol Diya!" attitude...like see me and then refuse if needed...without seeing me how can you decide!

for e.g. when saras refused the first time, any other girl would have acccepted...but this Vatt no Katko challenged saras to come and say it on her face and then refused to show him her face...If she was arrogant she would not have given him the second chance...

2) After saras rejected her the second time...NOW she wants her marriage to work... just to prove to saras that It was his loss... so each time when she is crying alone, whenever saras comes in front of her, her demeanor changes instantly...

.This is her PRIMARY reason, since she feels the rejection personally...because the 1st time when saras had rejected the proposal it was not personal ...Yet this Vatt No Katko had taken it personally till DB explained to her...even then she goes "Kis Haq se"and I can't forgive him...she helps him for DB and eventually falls for him too...

...the 2nd time he rejected her PERSONALLY..after all the mind, body, soul, PMS ...so she's hurt and feels used...so the "Meine poore hosho hawaas mein yeh kiya hain""... ...she has thought it through...it is not a hasty decision at all...more mind less heart...more like Its enough!

Emphasis>> THIS IS THE PRIMARY REASON

3)  And all that father's prestige,  sisters & Yash future...all that which is is denoting her primary reasons are actually SECONDARY.

4) For her the easy way out is to leave BD house...her father and Deasi's will be on her side anyway. Saras is ready & waiting to marry..

BUT if she agrees to return:
(i) it is a blow to her self-esteem ...sort of like thukrake shaadi ki... not due to the
Haq of her love but like second's ...

(ii) it proves her father wrong...thereby shattering his self-belief permenantly.

IF she succeeds she helps him regain his self-confidence ...his judgements do not cause harm..and so he begins to heal...and resores his confidence...also her Vatt is maintained...

5) The destiny angle is that kumud is now like If Life gives you lemons, make lemonade!

 hmm...little long...but posting it anyway...

cya later ...

Tongue


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Posted: 18 August 2013 at 12:37am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Arshics

@ Hgg, ivy 

Strange strange. Saras's wov - almost didn't happen because Saras has saraswati's tendency for suicide, and it did happen because of Saraswati, the third mother - the destroyer and protector in one! 

And it is always his replacements who pull him back - first time he would have followed her into the water, but Mai his nominated mother pulled him back

Second time from the terrace, his enforced mom pulled him back 

And third time, his love, the wife who replaces mother as the first woman in a mans life, pulls him back! 

Interesting! 

His trait of self injury, was that inherited from Saraswati, who carried it to the ultimate extreme? 

Highlight of the whole thread for me, Arshi!...Clap
You're beyond compare...out-gautaming Gautam himself..LOL 
(For those in the dark, see Arshi's fun thread!)


Originally posted by arshcs

Makes perfect sense Ivy, going to the exact spot, and taking the kasam, was a correlation with Saraswati, and anyway, who is Saras, but saraswati's son?  Right from the moment we met Saras, we have also seen a tussle about who he is. LN demands that Saras become his son, Guman claims that Saras is hers and she has moulded him to her design, Mai has her own claims on him, and Guniyal becomes ma to him. He denounced LN and Guman by choice, and Mai and Guniyal have been lost to fateHe is, was and remains saraswati's son. So if saraswati's fate is becoming Kumud's fate, he will want to change that is also right. And Kumud - her birth mothers shiksha of accepting the good and bad in the husband, has given her the aastha, her saasuma's aasha, will give her the himmat, and the third mother, represented by Saras will give the raasta. Aastha, himmat aur raasta, jab sab saath hon, toh manzil mil hi jayegi. So pramaad sudhar is bound to happen,

Once again, outstanding analysis, Star  but heart-breaking if @red happens...Ouch





Edited by happychappy - 18 August 2013 at 12:50am

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