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DonnaHarvey

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DonnaHarvey

Joined: 17 November 2012

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Posted: 21 May 2013 at 11:13am | IP Logged
Originally posted by King-Anu

Sure there are incidents where men behave like animals and where a dress DOES NOT drive rape or molestation etc. Some such incidents like 80 year old/5 year old are examples. Its nothing to do with dress there. I have suggested a punishment for such people. Please refer to that topic.
Just yesterday I was waiting for the bus and there were three boys (well one was not a boy) and a girl passed and one of them checked her back side for a while. I was monitoring his behavior. She was in tight dress. Be practical. Stop living in utopia. There are people who go into violence and are triggered by such things. Sure there are those who dont need a trigger.

Ideally i agree with the point that dress should not matter. Even if a girl is naked it should not matter. However is this world ideal? Even in developed countries like US there are incidents of rape. Dressing properly and keeping environment in mind will NOT prevent you from that however being careful always help.
Dress should not matter and it doesn't. You know why? More than half of the rapes (reported and unreported) are by family members and friends and relatives who seen more than just a short skirt. They and not the victim are to blame.
The US is probably the biggest promoter for rape culture. The sorority email that went viral. The chief officer and his subordinates responsible for preventing sexual assault in the military were arrested for guess what? Sexual assault. Yale university is being fined for highly under reporting sexual harassment. Rapists are eligible for filing for custody. I could go on about the times (reported) rapists have been overlooked to focus on what the girl was wearing that night.
Lingering eyes are human nature. A shirtless dude with chiseled abs would make me want to look. I don't act. Same with men.
I hate having to lift the moral responsibility off men and take it upon myself to ensure the other half of my species is well behaved. 
Here is what your comment says to me: rape culture--------------------which leads to s**t shaming--------which leads to victim blaming (the 5 yr or the 80yr was not asking for it but Damini was. Afterall she was out with an unrelated male late at night what did she expect? She was asking for it).


Some tumblr pictures that say things better than I can

The shortening length of the victim's  skirt does not increase my probability of getting raped, the rapist's increasing stupidity does. However, she is silenced by the comments of rape culture buy-ins.
I used to think it was my fault for being leered at. I since learned I was wrong. It snows like hell where I live and even when I am covered in unflattering eskimo bubble coats from head to toe. When people can only see my face, they still throw in a comment or two. 

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DonnaHarvey

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DonnaHarvey

Joined: 17 November 2012

Posts: 13403

Posted: 21 May 2013 at 11:17am | IP Logged
Originally posted by enigmatic_zephy

There was a saying read it somewhere:

Does your God create rapists?
Or does your God chooses to not intervene when a rape occurs.
That's the difference between me and you,
If I could stop a child from getting raped,  I would.


( Don't remember exactly, but quite powerful words .. for those who believe in god that rules every movement in the universe)
I never heard of a God like that.
I think (and may be I am wrong) this excuse of God's can be used to explain murder, theft, disease and many other things. Yet, it is often selectively used for rape. Again, rape culture and not spirituality is to blame. God (I believe in it) is the creator and the nurturer. We sow what we reap. We dig holes for for ourselves to die in. God need not interfere.

Dexterkilaila

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Dexterkilaila

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Posts: 17817

Posted: 21 May 2013 at 7:38pm | IP Logged
Good girls, bad girls, crazy girls, sober girls, good guys, bad guys, crazy guys, sober guys should all dress the same way bole toh EVENT APPROPRIATE. That is the only dress code everyone should abide by. Nothing more, nothing less.

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charminggenieenigmatic_zephyHawaaPotU-No-Poo

enigmatic_zephy

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enigmatic_zephy

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Posts: 17731

Posted: 22 May 2013 at 3:21am | IP Logged
Originally posted by DonnaHarvey

Originally posted by enigmatic_zephy

There was a saying read it somewhere:

Does your God create rapists?
Or does your God chooses to not intervene when a rape occurs.
That's the difference between me and you,
If I could stop a child from getting raped,  I would.


( Don't remember exactly, but quite powerful words .. for those who believe in god that rules every movement in the universe)
I never heard of a God like that.
I think (and may be I am wrong) this excuse of God's can be used to explain murder, theft, disease and many other things. Yet, it is often selectively used for rape. Again, rape culture and not spirituality is to blame. God (I believe in it) is the creator and the nurturer. We sow what we reap. We dig holes for for ourselves to die in. God need not interfere.


This is not about spiritualism... i think more to do with the orthodox superstitious non thinking blind belief in God.. people who actually believe that a person sits up there somewhere and manufactures all living beings and their souls..and there is nothing like freedom of choice, responsibility of actions.. 


enigmatic_zephy

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enigmatic_zephy

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Posts: 17731

Posted: 22 May 2013 at 3:21am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Dexterkilaila

Good girls, bad girls, crazy girls, sober girls, good guys, bad guys, crazy guys, sober guys should all dress the same way bole toh EVENT APPROPRIATE. That is the only dress code everyone should abide by. Nothing more, nothing less.

True!

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Dexterkilaila

Forever-KA

IF-Rockerz

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Joined: 01 April 2009

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Posted: 22 May 2013 at 7:54am | IP Logged

We have disagreed on this before, and I will continue to disagree with it vehemently.

 

okay.

 

Every human being is equipped with a sense of morality and decency. Every human being is capable of knowing where to draw a line. Of course a man who sees a woman in a revealing outfit maybe turned on. They may ogle a bit. However, at the same time a man knows that she must be treated with respect. Maybe he can flirt a little and try to ask her out. But he has the morality and decency to know that he shouldn't tease her, harass her, grab her or touch her. He has the morality and decency to know to back off if she says no.  Society expects that morality and decency out of every man.

 

First, I don't think it matters what society expects. We can construct all sorts of standards and form expectations but unfortunately world is driven by events and not our view of what it should be. Second, Every human being is equppied with sense of morality and decency but the problem is that sense is not the same in every human being. We have different thresholds when it comes to reacting to an observation. So I don't see any practical value in what you have stated, in context of this debate.

 

However, when you say that clothes incite rape you take the onus of morality and decency away from the man. It is no longer his responsibility to remain moral and decent. It says that if the girl wears a revealing dress she is loose and immoral so you need not bother with your morals. It generates a rape culture that women who dress a certain way are "asking for it". It creates a society like India where sexual harassment and rape is rampant and instead of addressing the crime people are more concerned about why she wore tight jeans, why was she out late, why did she have a few drinks too many.  

 

The problem with us is that we are seeing this issue through a tunnel vision. If someone points out clothing as a possible factor then it does not mean he is saying it incites rape. There could be other contributing factors and it could also be that it is a factor in a certain situation. No one is saying clothing incites rape. Similarly no one said girl is loose or immoral. 

 
I guess it is a strong reaction coming from a gender who is the victim and who is not ready to hear anything otherwise. I understand that but emotions, assumptions are of no value in an objective analysis of this issue.

 

As long as Indian men and women hold the notion that clothing is responsible for rape and that the onus of safety and responsibility is on the woman India will continue to be the hot bed of rape and sexual harassment. If we are to become a better and safer society then the men and women have to take a stand that rape has absolutely nothing to do with the victim. It is 100% the rapist's fault and responsibility.

 

Those who think that only clothing is responsible are wrong. However I do believe that clothing in certain situation could be a triggering factor and therefore one of the steps to prevent certain cases of rape should be to dress properly in a situation or in an environment where there is likely to be increase chance of rape. At the same time other efforts should continue which include punishment, better policing, teaching people and also families should be involved to teach kids about morality.

 

Rape and sexual harassment is not unique to India. It happens all across the world. Even in the United States we have rape cases like Steubenville. The difference is that it in India society would say oh she dressed like a s**t and flirted with the boys, she drank too much and passed out amidst boys. Rape is bad, but you have to admit most of it is her fault. You can't just blame the boys if the girl is so provocative and careless. But at least majority of society and the court said firmly enough with the s**t shaming and excuses. The boys are 100% guilty and there is absolutely no doubt about it.

 

The problem is not boy is guilty or not. All agree he is 100% guilty and should be punished. Where does that leave us? The fact is that event happened and continues to happen and as you said even happens in west where there is education, policing. So why has it not stopped? The reason is there will always be people out there who will do this. Therefore there is some responsibility on girl to dress properly in context of environment. What is the big deal? We do that every day depending upon where we are going for example to office, family visits, etc. Sure in this case you are dressing for something that is not your fault but in practical world it does make sense. 

 

The world can and never will be perfect. But that does not mean you don't change it. Society has had many forms of discrimination and harassment throughout history. But we didn't just stand aside and say the world is not ideal, you have to deal with things the way they are. People stood up and changed the way people saw things. This difference between India and most of the world will always be the attitude towards women in society.

 

Sure change it. See the issue of rape in totality and understand there is no one answer to all problems. The fact that a 5 year old gets raped does not mean that a 25 yeard old girl can prevent a rape by being careful and cognizant of her surroundings. Lets think outside of blame game mindset. I agree men are to be blamed. Please see punishment I suggested in another topic. lol

 

Also check out enigmatic's pragmatic reply.

Donna, I have responded to you in above post as well. No my comment is not what you mentioned. Thats your own imagination.

DonnaHarvey

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DonnaHarvey

Joined: 17 November 2012

Posts: 13403

Posted: 22 May 2013 at 8:23am | IP Logged
Originally posted by King-Anu

First, I don't think it matters what society expects. We can construct all sorts of standards and form expectations but unfortunately world is driven by events and not our view of what it should be. Second, Every human being is equppied with sense of morality and decency but the problem is that sense is not the same in every human being. We have different thresholds when it comes to reacting to an observation. So I don't see any practical value in what you have stated, in context of this debate.

The problem with us is that we are seeing this issue through a tunnel vision. If someone points out clothing as a possible factor then it does not mean he is saying it incites rape. There could be other contributing factors and it could also be that it is a factor in a certain situation. No one is saying clothing incites rape. Similarly no one said girl is loose or immoral. 

 I find this statement contradictory and I am yet to determine where you stand on this issue. Note: in bold. So, is clothing a factor or is it not (according to you)?
I guess it is a strong reaction coming from a gender who is the victim and who is not ready to hear anything otherwise. I understand that but emotions, assumptions are of no value in an objective analysis of this issue.

That is generalization right there. We are having a debate, are we not? Clearly, I am willing to burst my liberal bubble and assuming so are you (whatever bubble you have) since we are out here presenting our view points. 

 

Those who think that only clothing is responsible are wrong. However I do believe that clothing in certain situation could be a triggering factor and therefore one of the steps to prevent certain cases of rape should be to dress properly in a situation or in an environment where there is likely to be increase chance of rape.

Alright, rape happens in homes, in schools (yes reputed IV league universities), in sporting events. The rapist is not a foreign creature. (S)He is an acquaintance, a friend or a person in position of power. I highly doubt a woman would be "expecting" rape at any of these places she considers safe and familiar. If she is at a party, she is sure to dress in a gown or something appropriate. No one likes to show up to cocktail events in bathing suits. So, I don't understand what you are implying. Going out of one's way to cover from head to toe? I think not.

At the same time other efforts should continue which include punishment, better policing, teaching people and also families should be involved to teach kids about morality.

Other efforts? Prevention education and appropriate sentencing should be at the forefront of it all. 

The problem is not boy is guilty or not. All agree he is 100% guilty and should be punished. Where does that leave us? The fact is that event happened and continues to happen and as you said even happens in west where there is education, policing. So why has it not stopped? The reason is there will always be people out there who will do this. Therefore there is some responsibility on girl to dress properly in context of environment. What is the big deal? We do that every day depending upon where we are going for example to office, family visits, etc. Sure in this case you are dressing for something that is not your fault but in practical world it does make sense. 

 Again, the big deal is "in context of the environment" every MAN and WOMAN dress appropriately. One does not take liberties at a workplace but goes casual at party yet the blame is on the victim. What is this context we are talking about? Define "out of context" attire.


Sure change it. See the issue of rape in totality and understand there is no one answer to all problems. The fact that a 5 year old gets raped does not mean that a 25 yeard old girl can prevent a rape by being careful and cognizant of her surroundings. Lets think outside of blame game mindset. I agree men are to be blamed. Please see punishment I suggested in another topic. lol

Punishment is needed along with prevention education. I agree. 

Also check out enigmatic's pragmatic reply.

Donna, I have responded to you in above post as well. No my comment is not what you mentioned. Thats your own imagination.

Let me lay out victim blaming for ya:

questioning rape victims. It's something we do way, wayyy too often instead of questioning, you know, THE RAPISTS. What were you wearing? Do you have a boyfriend? Why were you out so late? Why were you by yourself? Why did you invite him back to your apartment? Why didn't you run away screaming the second he penetrated you? Why did you text him after? Did I ask what you were wearing? (source: Jezebel)

Now, what you said was before the rape. So, it counts as being part of the rape culture. But, it does.

DonnaHarvey

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DonnaHarvey

Joined: 17 November 2012

Posts: 13403

Posted: 22 May 2013 at 8:27am | IP Logged
Originally posted by enigmatic_zephy

Originally posted by DonnaHarvey

Originally posted by enigmatic_zephy

There was a saying read it somewhere:

Does your God create rapists?
Or does your God chooses to not intervene when a rape occurs.
That's the difference between me and you,
If I could stop a child from getting raped,  I would.


( Don't remember exactly, but quite powerful words .. for those who believe in god that rules every movement in the universe)
I never heard of a God like that.
I think (and may be I am wrong) this excuse of God's can be used to explain murder, theft, disease and many other things. Yet, it is often selectively used for rape. Again, rape culture and not spirituality is to blame. God (I believe in it) is the creator and the nurturer. We sow what we reap. We dig holes for for ourselves to die in. God need not interfere.


This is not about spiritualism... i think more to do with the orthodox superstitious non thinking blind belief in God.. people who actually believe that a person sits up there somewhere and manufactures all living beings and their souls..and there is nothing like freedom of choice, responsibility of actions.. 


This was during Romney campaign season but relevant to this "take the God way out". 
This is what GOP Senate candidate Richard Mourdock said:
 "I think even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it something that God intended to happen."

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