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Doubts & Discussions about Lord Shiva Part-2

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.Vrish.

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.Vrish.

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Posted: 16 April 2013 at 11:34pm | IP Logged

Ok, we had a fantastic series of discussions on Mahadev & others in the previous thread \|/ Doubts & Discussions about Lord Shiva 1 \|/, so we continue the discussion in this thread.  The previous thread, as well as this one, are listed in Archive Mansion (no comments) for ease of navigation.

Just to recap a few things from before:

    Discussions on mythological topics outside the realm of Mahadev should go here - || Mythological Masti :: Doubts & Discussions ||.  The other D&D mentioned there - Ramayan, DBSK and later JJMD - are in frozen forums, so can't be used.  As newer mythological shows surface, they may or may not have D&D threads, but the above one is perfectly appropriate about  questions not involving Shiva or his family/ganas, and which don't have other active D&D threads.
  • Same rule about sources - discuss them, even compare them for analysis, but no actual weighing in on which is more authentic, since that's a matter of faith & belief, and as per I-F rules, content disparaging any religion, sect or community is against the code of conduct here.  The idea of this thread is to purely to have objective discussions about mythology, sometimes, if not often, outside the scope of the serial, but related to Mahadev, Parvati, Sati, Kartikeya, Ganesh and their extended families.

Har, har, Mahadev, and happy discussing Approve

Link of the previous thread in DKDM,

\|/Doubts & Discussions about Lord Shiva Part-1\|/



Edited by mnx12 - 17 April 2013 at 12:14am

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mnx12

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Posted: 17 April 2013 at 2:55am | IP Logged
Found some interesting info about Puranas.
Many a times questions are asked, Puranas have proven antiquity but what about authenticity ? So can we furnish any proof saying that the contents of Puranas are original and not or have just been shuffled ?
The answer lies in the genuine tradition of Puranas. Puranas are composed majorly by Ved Vyasa during the Mahabharata era around 3000 BC. But the information of kings and sages can go as back as 8000 BC. So technically, Vyasa was describing about the events and people in his Puranas who lived 5000 years before him..! But from where did he get this information ?
The answer is, the Suta,Magadha and Stutipathak tradition. These were bards in the court of every king who used to record every event and pass it through generations. The earliest evidence of the existence of Suta, Magadha and Stutipathak goes to the era of king Prithu, almost 110 generations before Vyasa. From that time, we have these bards collecting information and passing on through generations. 
In the Mahabharata era, we have this information split into various bards in different kingdoms. This information was collected together by Vyasa and compiled in the Puranas. Thus the Puranas became a full fledged books which contained the names, genealogies and stories of different kings and sages. That is why, it is mere waste of time doubting the authenticity of Puranas.
As for a formality, the general information on Puranas is thus- 
There are 18 Maha Puranas namely Brahma, Brahmanda, Brahmavaivarta, Agni, Garuda, Narada, Linga, Matsya, Bhagvata, Vishnu, Kurna, Varaha, Bhavishya, Vamana,Markandeya, Padma, Shiva and Skanda.
There are 18 Upa Puranas too.
The combined verses of the 18 Maha Puranas totals upto 4000000 i.e 4 Lakhs ..!!!
The Skanda Purana is the largest with 81000 verses thus making it the third largest scripture in Hinduism after Mahabharata and Yoga Vasishtha.

For a reader, we shouldn't take only 1 Purana. Consider the 18 Puranas as one book. The reason for this is, the information is scattered into various Puranas. Thus only the name of X king appears in one, his story in other and his genealogy in the third. For a complete view. we need to look in all the Puranas.

Technically, Puranas also have incomplete information. But we should be grateful that we have at least the present information. Some of the stories are intangible. But still, the crux and the central ideas are to be taken. Through these years of propagation, there is some corruption in names or contexts. But that is an obvious effect after almost 5000 years of propagation from 3000 BC till now. 
Puranas also contain some religious stuff like information on different pilgrimage sites, stories of Gods and their description and above all, brilliant philosophy that parallels with that of Bhagvad Geeta. The dialogues of Krishna with his colleagues, speeches of kings,etc are filled with deep philosophical thought. Bhagvata Purana is considered the best among the Puranas.
 
At last, the Puranas complement the Vedas and make them complete. As Narada rishi says,

"Without any doubt, the Puranas increase the reputation of the Vedas."


Edited by mnx12 - 17 April 2013 at 2:58am

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.Reshama.

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Posted: 17 April 2013 at 11:16am | IP Logged
I dont know but is Vritrasur still alive ..or is he already killed by shiv? Ive read on internet that he is was born again created havoc. as mahammad. and misguided a group of society.
I really wonder what happend to him...

.Vrish.

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Posted: 18 April 2013 at 3:53am | IP Logged
Actually, Vritra was the one success story of Indra.  If you go by ACKs (I'm unsure of the original puranic/vedic source), there are 2 stories about it - one in 'Indra & Sachi', and the other in 'Indra & Vritra'.

The former has the one that has been somewhat shown in this serial so far.  Indra felt threatened by Trishiras and therefore murdered him w/ his Vajra.  This brought about Vritra being sent to go to war w/ him, and Indra initially suffered defeats, and so signed a temporary treaty w/ Vritra, pledging an end to hostilities.  Vritra sought from him a promise that Indra wouldn't try to kill him either during day or night, w/ any weapon, or anything wet or dry.  Indra kept his word for a while, but one day, at the beach, when he & Vritra were there at twilight, he got his chance.  There was a rich amount of foam, which is neither wet nor dry, it was neither day nor night.  Vishnu entered the foam, and Indra hurled it at Vritra, slaying him.  After that, Indra went into penance for breaking this vow, as well as killing Trisiras, and that's when the Nahusha story (of him becoming ruler of the devas) started.

The other story was pretty different, and probably the Vedic Indra, if I'm not mistaken.  Here, on one occasion, Indra and his devas were so lost in apsara dances & entertainment that when Brihaspati came in, they overlooked him, and an angry Brihaspati abandoned the devas.  Uptil then, the devas would win the devasura wars, but this incident was followed by their losing.  So Indra approached Brahma for advise, and he suggested getting a Guru who would do his yagnas and help them regain their edge over the asuras.

Now, here is where the story gets interesting.  Brahma suggested Trisiras' name to Indra, and Indra raised his reservations, given that Trisiras' mother was an asuri, and so he would have divided loyalties.  Brahma, somewhat inexplicably, told Indra that Trisiras was above that, and so Indra invited Trisiras to be the new devaguru.  Trisiras took over, and initially, the devas regained their advantage over the asuras.  However, this made Trisiras unhappy, since the asuras were his relatives as well via his mother, so he resolved to dedicate his yagnas to both.  This started and went undetected for a while, and the battles b/w the devas & asuras were stalemates.  

The devas were curious about these developments, while Indra got suspicious.  At the next yagna, Indra made it a point to be close to Trisiras and monitor what he was doing.  He detected that while Trisiras was doing the main rituals for the devas, he was chanting in undertones something totally different, and Indra suspected that something fishy was going on.  When it came time to offer ghee into the fire, Trisiras poured in a spoonful of ghee dedicating it to the devas, making Indra wonder why he didn't empty the whole pot.  Trisiras did next empty the whole pot, dedicating it to the asuras.  This infuriated Indra, and he drew his sword and cut off Trisiras' heads.  The heads took the form of 3 birds that flew away.  That yagna was a fiasco.

Twastha found out about Trisiras death and then did some major penances & invoked Vritra, and ordered him to go destroy Indra.  In the battlefield, the battle b/w devas & asuras were going on, when Vritra arrived and totally shattered the devas, and Indra was powerless against him.

Indra then approached Brahma for help, and Brahma told him that since Vritra was created by Twastha, he could only be killed by a weapon created from the bones of Dadhichi, whose tapasya alone matched that of Twastha.  Since Dadhichi was in debt to the Ashwin twins, who had once saved him from death for imparting to them some vedic knowledge that the devas wouldn't allow, they all asked Dadhichi if he would be willing to give up his life so that a weapon could be made of his bones to kill Vritra.  Dadhichi agreed and gave up his life, and w/ his skeletal remains, the Vajra was made.

Indra then led the Devas to battle against Vritra, and this time, he was successful in killing him.  This was one of Indra's rare achievements in war.

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.Vrish.

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.Vrish.

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Posted: 18 April 2013 at 3:58am | IP Logged
The thing about the latter story above was that Indra didn't murder Trisiras out of any sense of insecurity, but rather, in retaliation for treason.  After all, Trisiras had been honored by the devas by being made the devaguru, and should have declined the job if he was unable to avoid the conflict of interests b/w his duty to the devas as their guru, vs his partiality towards the asuras, due to his maternal relationship.  But sitting in the deva camp and then dedicating his work to the asuras was downright treason, and even in modern societies, death is sometimes the punishment for treason.

Needless to say, Vritra had nothing to do w/ either Taki earlier, nor Jalandhar now.

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varaali

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Posted: 18 April 2013 at 10:09am | IP Logged
Thanks Vrish for having compiled both the stories concisely. I often got confused b/w the two.

Now my question is: In the first story, Indra uses the Vajra to kill Trisiras while in the second, he uses it to kill Vritra.  Am I right? 

.Vrish.

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.Vrish.

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Posted: 19 April 2013 at 12:38am | IP Logged
Right.  In the first, Indra uses the vajra to kill Trisiras, and after that, dead Trisiras' eyes keep staring @ him, following him where he is and freaking him out.  He then asks a woodcutter to cut off Trisiras' head, and the woodcutter declines, on the grounds that his ax would be blunted.  Indra promises to re-sharpen it w/ his vajra, and so the woodcutter does the job, and Trisiras' eyes are closed forever.  No Dadhichi in this story, and Indra uses a totally different way to kill Vritra.  Latter story - Indra uses his sword to behead Trisiras @ the agnikund itself.

In the serial though, Vritra, in his practice session w/ Jalandhar Wednesday, said that he could not be killed in day or night, or by any weapon.  This matches the first story I narrated about him, except that instead of ascribing that to Indra's promise, it's ascribed to Brahma's boon.  But then, in the precap for tonight, Dadhichi offers his bones to make the Vajra, but I don't see how that could kill him given this story.  They are mixing both the accounts I listed above, but those 2 are totally incompatible, and one just doesn't follow from the other.


Edited by .Vrish. - 19 April 2013 at 5:05am

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Posted: 20 April 2013 at 1:25am | IP Logged
Ya, so my doubt is something which everyone yould have been wondering. How can the devtas be killed if they have drunk amrit? After all, the very meaning of Amrit is "A-mrit" "Yah Mritah Na ASti) That which is not mortal.
And rishi Dadhichi, saidm, "Amar aur Adamya jaise shabd is nashvar sansaar mein hai hi nahi." So what does that mean? That amrit is not possible? ConfusedConfusedConfused


Edited by Surya_krsnbhakt - 20 April 2013 at 1:27am

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