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Real discussion about sexual violence (Page 4)

_Angie_ IF-Rockerz
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Posted: 13 March 2013 at 12:20am | IP Logged
Originally posted by return_to_hades

^^

That rape was sickening. The thought of it makes me sick. I can't imagine anyone wanting to sympathize with these men. One thing that has been blurry to me is ' was the friend also sodomized? He would be a rape victim too then.

 

But foreign object rape is a common and serious concern ' that is not solved by castration.


The guy was beaten up, had a cracked skull and fractured leg  but not sodomized.
 
Are you getting at why only the girl if violence was the only motive?
 
Castration cannot be a solution nor reformation a feasible  option for all rapists.


Edited by _Angie_ - 13 March 2013 at 12:22am
-Believe- IF-Stunnerz
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Posted: 13 March 2013 at 12:44am | IP Logged
I can't understand what fun a man gets by raping a child or a woman?  What fun by molesting and raping girls and women in moving cars, buses, and homes? Some people says the girls are being raped by worst people because the girls are wearing fashionable cloth which attract the culprit to do soConfused. Bt now the baby of 4 years old girl even not spoke language correctly made what mistake for which she has been attacked..Ouch.The mentality is such that they think they can do the crime and get away, the law is such that they prove these rapists right every time...Does the judiciary know the feelings in the hearts of the mother and father of the child? They are going to abide by the laws wriiten in the 18th or 19th century!?!...and our Desi parents its time you teach your beloved son's how to respect a lady. Its no shame talking about adolescent stuff and teach what is right what is wrong and what is ok. In india/pak its common for parents to keep their sons from talking to girls and get angry when they see them close with a girl... this creates the person to just keep building those feelings as they never get freedom to talk openly to their peer group girls...the problem is with the mindset and other common factor is lack of education.
moomin4455 IF-Dazzler
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Posted: 13 March 2013 at 5:52am | IP Logged
Originally posted by TheTruth

Originally posted by moomin4455

If you castrate a man, you take away the ability for that man to be sexually aroused. There are some men who cannot have sex in any other way other than being violent towards women and they are known repeat sex offenders. In those cases I think castration is perfect -take away the sexual urges and you take away the need for sex. Same with paedophiles: there are repeat child sex offenders who cannot control themselves around children - shouldn't they be castrated?

If it is barbaric, then isn't forcing a woman (or a man) or a child to have sex not barbaric? There are some men who cannot be reconditioned or 'saved'.

I really hope that you are talking out of emotions and not logic since I do not see any logic in your post.

With your train of thoughts, for some anti-social  elements, we as a society should stoop to their level and become uncivilized. I do still believe though that you are just being emotional like I would grill a person's face who hurts my loved ones... but then there is reality.

There are laws that are put in place for each crime by much more qualified people. We must adhere to it. This should never prohibit us from fantasizing about punishments such as castration for rapists and plucking out one's eyes for eve-teasing and cutting of one's hands for indecent touching of girl etc.
We are civil society for a reason.

I hope I'm talking out of my emotions too, but I don't think I am completely. In a perfect world, with enough prison space, with a proper means of rehabilitation and/or access to psychiatric or mental health care I would completely agree with you: we should be civilized.

The measures I suggested don't apply to all sex offenders, but to repeat sex offenders who are imprisoned and released because of prison space shortage and go on to offend again and again. I think castration is particularly appropriate for the most violent of repeat child sex offenders.

Of course make sure you have the right guy, be sure of their guilt each and every time. I'm not going to be genteel and civilized against people who are proven again and again to be a hazard to women and children within society. 

If we correlate first world with civilised behaviour then I deplore such civilizations when barbarism shown during every single war that the West engages in: we should talk it out right? We're civilized. Guantanamo Bay is the tool of punishment by the most civilized country in the world.


Edited by moomin4455 - 13 March 2013 at 5:53am
moomin4455 IF-Dazzler
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Posted: 13 March 2013 at 5:58am | IP Logged
Originally posted by --arti--

Originally posted by moomin4455

If you castrate a man, you take away the ability for that man to be sexually aroused. There are some men who cannot have sex in any other way other than being violent towards women and they are known repeat sex offenders. In those cases I think castration is perfect -take away the sexual urges and you take away the need for sex. Same with paedophiles: there are repeat child sex offenders who cannot control themselves around children - shouldn't they be castrated?

If it is barbaric, then isn't forcing a woman (or a man) or a child to have sex not barbaric? There are some men who cannot be reconditioned or 'saved'.


Whether or not sexual violence is barbaric isn't really in question because we all seem to agree on that. The issue also isn't about whether or not we can "reform" all rapists. It's more about how we respond to sexual violence as a society. Our responses seem to betray some fundamentally problematic views about sexual violence, gender, and so on that we hold deep down, and that's my starting point for this discussion.

Castration doesn't take away the ability to be sexually aroused. It takes away one of the sex organs of the body, but the brain is also a sex organ and people are still capable of experiencing arousal. So the argument that it takes away "urges," particularly violent ones doesn't really hold water.

As has been put forward already, the push for castration is because of the meaning of what it means to be a castrated man. A "lesser" man. Any number of derogatory terms exist for that. I think that all of this "lesser man" business is rooted in sexist/homophobic/transphobic thought. Masculinity or maleness isn't about being an a*shole or a violent person, or about having x, y, z body parts or demeanour. I'll stop there because I've already made this point and other threads have gone over gender as a set of attributes and behaviour that we learn socially. Violent masculinity is learned behaviour, and it has no connection with whether or not someone has a penis. Violent masculinity is enabled through rape culture.

I think we have to abandon our attachment to the idea that a) rape is all about sex, and b) rape is a form of "defilement" towards women/victims.

a) There are a lot of compelling arguments based on facts and empirical data that show us that rape is ultimately about power. Rape victims are all kinds of ages and their perceived sexual attractiveness or perceived sexual availability isn't the issue.

b) It's a form of sexual violence. There are other forms of gendered violence too, and all those forms of violence are wrong. The difference with sexual violence is the huge amount of stigma it carries, particularly because of the notion that the "purity" of a woman is "defiled" or "dishonoured." The other unique thing about sexual violence is, due to that particular stigma and judgment attached to it, women have to live in fear of it. If we want to get anywhere with this social problem, I think it's imperative to not talk about rape in terms of purity or honour or pride. We need to talk about it as straight up gender based violence. Otherwise we really risk reinforcing the cultural stigma of "pure" and "impure" women and the sexist notions that are attached to it. To me, it's impossible to have any notion of female freedom that isn't fundamentally respectful of the sexual (education and) choices of women. If a woman wants to have sex, it's her business and she isn't any less pure because of it. The main thing is that her consent and her sense of safety is paramount. And safety isn't just physical. It's also not having to worry about whether people will try to shame you or think you're a sl*t and so on. What might be safe for me sexually might not be safe for another woman and vice versa.

I think if we move away from talking about rape in the kinds of moral terms that are grounded in sexism, and different, more progressive moral terms (being against gender based violence, for example), we will be able to resolve some of the contradictions in our thoughts about what the "revenge" for rape should look like.

Castration means removing the testicles ie removing the site of testosterone production. It does get rid of sexual arousal. For those repeat sex offenders who cannot stop themselves from repeatedly raping women or child then it may help.

But I agree if a person is violent for violence's sake then no it does not solve the problem. Do I think we can reform all rapists? No, unfortunately.

return_to_hades IF-Veteran Member
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Posted: 13 March 2013 at 7:52am | IP Logged

It is a misconception that castration removes sexual arousal. Castration only significantly minimizes and inhibits it.

 

We also have to realize rape is not only a "sex" crime. A large element of rape is aggression and dominance. Sexual activity is one means of doing this. You often see neutered animals also mounting and displaying sexual behavior. It is a combination dominance rituals and arousal. Humans to have similar tendency. Prison rape is one unique example. Many of these men are not sexually aroused, they are not even gay. The rape is a way to humiliate others and assert dominance. Sodomy and rape by armies also follows similar behavior patterns. It is not the sexual arousal that drives them. It is the need to humiliate and dominate the conquered. Take the sexual humiliation meted out in Abu Gharib, that's not people acting on a "sex drive" but the need to dominate.

 

Many rapists have been men with happy healthy sex lives with wives and girlfriends. But there is a disturbed part of their psyche that gets off on power and dominance, and they turn to rape to fulfill it. Had it been a purely sexual urge, there are many ways to fulfill it. But rape is more than the sex.

 

So castration doesn't necessarily fix or prevent rape.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't call for sympathy for rapists. They deserve tough punishment. Rape makes me so angry, that I want the perpetrators publicly castrated with a cheese grater. I feel no punishment is too cruel for rapists. But I do realize that it is a knee jerk reaction. I'm an emotional being and such issues stir emotions a lot. But in the end, we need to think about what is pragmatic. I'm not saying don't castrate. But at the same time we need to think about the big picture of rape and try to see what more we can do to fix this problem.  

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moomin4455

_Angie_ IF-Rockerz
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Posted: 13 March 2013 at 10:52am | IP Logged
Originally posted by TheTruth


This issue is nothing different than murder or stealing or aggravated assault or any other crime.. sorry. Rape is a crime and just that. A criminal is just that.

A victim of murder, robbery, assault does not have to face social ostracism  unlike a rape victim which makes it very difficult for the victim to lodge a complaint and fight a legal battle. That sets it apart from the other crimes.

 
Originally posted by TheTruth

 
 
I think they are mostly wired that way. Some people are raised in an environment that harbors criminals. It can be viewed as psychological issue. Parents should be watching out for abnormal behaviors in their kids at every age and get help as soon as they notice something weird.
 
 No easy solutions to this one. Most of the abnormal behaviour does not get recognised as anything abnormal or weird  by parents or society. Even if they do notice it the options for getting help are quite limited . Many would  be reluctant to seek psychiatric help because  of the perceived stigma of being labeled as a "mental case" , even if they overcome the hesitation not many would be able to afford the expenses involved. The onus would ultimately be on to the state funding agencies

Originally posted by TheTruth

I am willing to bet that these Delhi rapist must have had exhibited enough warning signs before he committed this evil act.
Thats right. They broke many laws but got away with it. Imprisoning them at that time could have averted greater crimes. The reformists could have tried out whatever reforms they had up their sleeves once they were put safely behind bars.IMO  letting them loose in society is not acceptable.
 
 * darn! problem with the quotes again.


Edited by _Angie_ - 13 March 2013 at 10:54am
peridot. Senior Member
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Posted: 21 April 2013 at 9:04am | IP Logged

A good discussion here. Too many similar topics so no point in starting a new thread .  The OP has covered a lot of important issues here.Hope to revive this thread.

 Rape is worse than murder as the victim dies many death. What makes people commit crime with such impunity? Could  it be the confidence to be  able to get away with it? If the criminals  knew that they would face punishment would they hesitate to commit crimes?
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Posted: 21 April 2013 at 9:58pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by .Baazigar.

Originally posted by _twilight_

A good discussion here. Too many similar topics so no point in starting a new thread .  The OP has covered a lot of important issues here.Hope to revive this thread.

 Rape is worse than murder as the victim dies many death. What makes people commit crime with such impunity? Could  it be the confidence to be  able to get away with it? If the criminals  knew that they would face punishment would they hesitate to commit crimes?

May be a compulsory death penalty in these cases specially on child rape and murder cases should be there , or else these cases are increasing. Only thing is our policing are crap .



I reckon death penalty for any form of rape. I mean, if you differentiate between a woman and little girl, then that's sending out the message that it's better to rape older women when in fact ALL forms of rape are horrible, despite of the age. In fact, I believe rape is by far, way worse than murder, a death penalty is too nice of a punishment

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