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Real discussion about sexual violence (Page 2)

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--arti--

Goldie

--arti--

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Posted: 11 March 2013 at 9:55am | IP Logged
@Baazigar: Great points, and it's true, the fact is that it is common, but I have a huge problem with how sexual violence by the state and its agents don't get talked about. Everyone discussed the Delhi bus rape, but why aren't people talking about "men in uniform" raping lower caste women and women in the north east, women in Kashmir and so on. There was an excellent article about this by Urvashi Butalia:
Urvashi Butalia - Let's ask hwo we contribute to rape

Originally posted by _Angie_


-          Improve policing, appoint more police for general public instead of the VIPS (many of whom anyway have a criminal background themselves)

-          On going education  and sensitization of the police force

-          Improve street lightings, public transport system, surveillance,

-          Increased accountability of people responsible for maintaining law

Long term :

-          gender sensitization from school level, extended to work places, public places, homes

-          Education and employment opportunities for girls

-          Inheritance and property rights,

-          Most important girls should have the right to decision making!


Couldn't agree with you more. I actually think increased public transportation is a huge safety issue for women. There is a need for much better infrastructure that allows women to be safe on the streets at any time of the day.

All the steps you've pointed out are vital and not that we can pick and choose any one, but I would say a really important step forward is also social re-education of men. I think men really need to learn how to respect the choices women make, including positive and negative sexual choices (i.e. that they can say yes or no, and that it's their choice) without judgment.

And another big step forward for me would be to question state violence. This is difficult to do in the context of nationalist pride, but we really need to ask tough questions when that kind of brutality is normalized and people get away with no punishment for using state instruments and state-sanctioned power to rape and humiliate women who have no power or ability to speak up. It should be a national embarrassment and cops and army need to be held to the fire for sexual violence and any other gender based violence.

And finally, I think the justice system needs to be revamped big time. We need to have better laws to allow women to come forward so that rapists can be convicted, but I really don't believe in capital punishment. I think we need a better model as a society to first prevent sexual violence, and second to create a transformative model of justice for those who have raped, and how and at what point they can be reintegrated into society as productive people. I feel like the anger that people direct towards rapists is totally fair, but that shouldn't mean that we should endorse state sanctioned brutality. That's why it makes me feel sick when people mention castration or hanging. Murder or genital mutilation are both unacceptable as a social response to something as serious as rape. If we want to wipe it out, we have to get a lot more serious about justice.

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--arti--

Goldie

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Posted: 11 March 2013 at 10:00am | IP Logged
Originally posted by -Aarya-

Arti, I understand your points  but the topic is on a broader scale, do you want to focus  on one particular topic with in sexual violence, for example why female gender is more prone to sexual abuse...

Let me know your thoughts, before I jump the fence on this one ;)



Originally posted by boreddamsel

Ok, when I started commenting.. I realized this is really broad. 
Does this also include .. say marital abuse too..? 
What do you mean by gender violence .. is it physical and mental?? 'coz mental abuse could be violent too! 


I know it's broad. Sorry, I just wanted to make sure that all of those aspects were listed. Sometimes I have seen discussions where those aspects are ignored and I feel like they are all important.

You can feel free to discuss any aspect that you want if you don't want to touch on all of that.

I am using "sexual violence" to talk about rape. The use of the term is deliberate because I feel like rape is a word that is attached to all kinds of other problematic vocabulary (honour, pride, a woman's "chastity"). Sexual violence is much more uncomplicated terminology for me. It doesn't refer to all gender violence, just ones that are sexual in nature. Sexual violence has both physical and mental aspects.

Originally posted by nishabee

Marital abuse should also be talked about because many people are not aware of the fact that women can go through numerous problems in a marriage which can isolate them from their own family members.


Marital abuse is a different category. It can include sexual violence, but doesn't have to. I think those are a different set of issues altogether although they could be talked about as another aspect of gender violence.

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Posted: 11 March 2013 at 11:24am | IP Logged
Originally posted by --arti--

 
And another big step forward for me would be to question state violence. This is difficult to do in the context of nationalist pride, but we really need to ask tough questions when that kind of brutality is normalized and people get away with no punishment for using state instruments and state-sanctioned power to rape and humiliate women who have no power or ability to speak up. It should be a national embarrassment and cops and army need to be held to the fire for sexual violence and any other gender based violence.
With you on that. The law of the land must be upheld no matter who the perpetrator .

And finally, I think the justice system needs to be revamped big time. We need to have better laws to allow women to come forward so that rapists can be convicted, but I really don't believe in capital punishment.
Thats a whole  debatable topic by itself. Do we have to include it here?  Ermm
I
think we need a better model as a society to first prevent sexual violence,
 
Yeah first- an effective preventive mechanism in place
 
and second to create a transformative model of justice for those who have raped, and how and at what point they can be reintegrated into society as productive people.
Once the preventive aspect is implemented the focus could be shifted to  reformative measures
I feel like the anger that people direct towards rapists is totally fair, but that shouldn't mean that we should endorse state sanctioned brutality. That's why it makes me feel sick when people mention castration or hanging.
Nothing wrong with chemical castration . It could have beneficial outcomes in those  with hormonal problems and there have been cases where the person was aware of his condition and sought medical intervention.
Murder or genital mutilation are both unacceptable as a social response to something as serious as rape. If we want to wipe it out, we have to get a lot more serious about justice.
Gruesome crimes often evoke outrage and society reacts to it. Those responsible for framing laws and upholding justice can deliberate in a logical manner but expecting the agrieved sections to do that is impractical.
 

return_to_hades

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Posted: 11 March 2013 at 11:38am | IP Logged
Very interesting topic. Will add thoughts sometime. Reading for now. 

--arti--

Goldie

--arti--

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Posted: 11 March 2013 at 12:43pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by _Angie_

Nothing wrong with chemical castration . It could have beneficial outcomes in those  with hormonal problems and there have been cases where the person was aware of his condition and sought medical intervention.

Gruesome crimes often evoke outrage and society reacts to it. Those responsible for framing laws and upholding justice can deliberate in a logical manner but expecting the agrieved sections to do that is impractical.
 


Well, the assumption there is that the penis caused the crime. The person did, and they can easily harm another person without a penis. Don't want to get graphic here, but a lot of cases of sexual violence show us that any number of objects can be used.

I don't know if you are insinuating that hormone problems can cause rape. Are you?

Yeah, these kinds of crimes cause a lot of anger and pain. But it's unfair to claim that only logical professionals can think about the solutions. Those who have been affected have much more of an imperative to participate in coming up with the solutions. I think people go through different stages when they are in pain or have suffered a huge loss. They get angry, sad, go through shock and grief. But all of that is part of a process, and at the end of that process, they do want reconciliation and meaningful justice. Consider other rape victims who spoke up after the bus gang rape and offered strength and support for the victim.




_Angie_

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Posted: 12 March 2013 at 1:44am | IP Logged
Originally posted by --arti--

Originally posted by _Angie_

Nothing wrong with chemical castration . It could have beneficial outcomes in those  with hormonal problems and there have been cases where the person was aware of his condition and sought medical intervention.
Gruesome crimes often evoke outrage and society reacts to it. Those responsible for framing laws and upholding justice can deliberate in a logical manner but expecting the agrieved sections to do that is impractical.
 


Well, the assumption there is that the penis caused the crime. The person did, and they can easily harm another person without a penis. Don't want to get graphic here, but a lot of cases of sexual violence show us that any number of objects can be used.
Yes any number of objects could be used but the fact is that the penis remains the most commonly used weapon of offense.

I don't know if you are insinuating that hormone problems can cause rape. Are you?

Causes leading to rape are multiple. It is about violence/ domination  but violence and sexual gratification could and do overlap.  That could be one of the reasons why the penis remains the commonest weapon of offense. Uncontrollable libido due to hormonal imbalance could lead a person  to indulge in the offense. There are reported cases who have admitted to it. Chemical castration (which is different from surgical) involves administration of medication at three monthly intervals with monitoring and could serve as a preventive/reformative  measure (which you have been advocating)  in some of the selected serial offenders. Some countries have already adopted it . The debate regarding its efficacy and practicability is still on in India.



Yeah, these kinds of crimes cause a lot of anger and pain. But it's unfair to claim that only logical professionals can think about the solutions. Those who have been affected have much more of an imperative to participate in coming up with the solutions. I think people go through different stages when they are in pain or have suffered a huge loss. They get angry, sad, go through shock and grief. But all of that is part of a process, and at the end of that process, they do want reconciliation and meaningful justice. Consider other rape victims who spoke up after the bus gang rape and offered strength and support for the victim.

Exactly but it keeps eluding them time and again. When the crime gets repeated day in and day out it offers little solace or a chance to heal.


return_to_hades

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Posted: 12 March 2013 at 8:15am | IP Logged
Originally posted by --arti--

Originally posted by _Angie_

Nothing wrong with chemical castration . It could have beneficial outcomes in those  with hormonal problems and there have been cases where the person was aware of his condition and sought medical intervention.

Gruesome crimes often evoke outrage and society reacts to it. Those responsible for framing laws and upholding justice can deliberate in a logical manner but expecting the agrieved sections to do that is impractical.
 


Well, the assumption there is that the penis caused the crime. The person did, and they can easily harm another person without a penis. Don't want to get graphic here, but a lot of cases of sexual violence show us that any number of objects can be used




I think the emphasis on castration is more symbolic than an actual deterrent. The trauma of rape is not exactly in the physical act, but a lot more in the violation of one's sanctity and personhood. Similarly castration may be physical, but a lot more weight lies in the mental loss of dignity and manhood.

 

You raise a good point that the penis is always not the raping object. Not that it makes it any better, but had the Delhi gang rape been only penile, the girl may have survived. The brutality of the rape was in the fact that they used a foreign blunt object. There have been rapists with sexual dysfunctions who dealt exclusively with blunt objects. I'd also be curious if castration can make the rapist more sexually violent in frustration. The rapists with sexual dysfunction do tend to be more sadistic, and the less they can perform, the more necessary to use other means to exert alpha dominance.

 

But I still think there is a gratifying sense to castration, especially if done slowly with a cheese grater. We can always chop of the digits as good measure to prevent future foreign object rapes. I guess I'm sadistic as well.


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_Angie_

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Posted: 12 March 2013 at 11:59am | IP Logged

Originally posted by return_to_hades

The brutality of the rape was in the fact that they used a foreign blunt object. There have been rapists with sexual dysfunctions who dealt exclusively with blunt objects. I'd also be curious if castration can make the rapist more sexually violent in frustration. The rapists with sexual dysfunction do tend to be more sadistic, and the less they can perform, the more necessary to use other means to exert alpha dominance.

But I still think there is a gratifying sense to castration, especially if done slowly with a cheese grater. We can always chop of the digits as good measure to prevent future foreign object rapes. I guess I'm sadistic as well.


 

 

@ the bold- ..that could be a possibility! So best bet would be to incarcerate them where they cannot cause any more harm than they already did.  

 

Just for information, the blunt object wasnt all that blunt. All buses in Delhi carry an iron rod that is pointed at one end , about 4-5 feet long used as a lever while changing flat tyres of the bus. There were also reports that one of the accused plucked out the uterus with his bare hands and threw it out of the bus. The girl and her friends were beaten, kicked, stripped and thrown out of the running bus. The driver tried to mow her down but her friend pulled her out of the way. Both of them were bleeding profusely when the police found them.  Its horrible even to think of it.  Whatever be the circumstances or reason or the crime for these six accused do they deserve to be let off saying that imprisonment is no good for the victim! That the accused  can be transformed!  The girl has given her written statement accusing all six and expressed her wish to get  them  punished. Her friend too gave his testimony and even identified all six. Should people be wasting their sympathy on these demons in human form?  

 

 The autopsy reports are yet to come but in all probability the main accused was driven to suicide by the other inmates. The other 4 are feeling the heat now. The juvenile had incidentally complained of abdominal pain a day or so after he was arrested and was diagnosed as having appendicitis. He had to be rushed for an emergency surgery to prevent a ruptured appendix. Had he not been apprehended when he was,  he wouldn't have been able to access medical care   in time and had a ruptured appendix that leads to peritonitis a very difficult condition to treat . The ensuing intestinal infection would have led to the same fate as the girl that is resection of the intestines!  Makes one shudder!



Edited by _Angie_ - 12 March 2013 at 12:01pm

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