Real discussion about sexual violence - Page 2

Originally posted by: --arti--

 

And another big step forward for me would be to question state violence. This is difficult to do in the context of nationalist pride, but we really need to ask tough questions when that kind of brutality is normalized and people get away with no punishment for using state instruments and state-sanctioned power to rape and humiliate women who have no power or ability to speak up. It should be a national embarrassment and cops and army need to be held to the fire for sexual violence and any other gender based violence.

With you on that. The law of the land must be upheld no matter who the perpetrator .

And finally, I think the justice system needs to be revamped big time. We need to have better laws to allow women to come forward so that rapists can be convicted, but I really don't believe in capital punishment.

Thats a whole  debatable topic by itself. Do we have to include it here?  🤔

I think we need a better model as a society to first prevent sexual violence,

 

Yeah first- an effective preventive mechanism in place

 

and second to create a transformative model of justice for those who have raped, and how and at what point they can be reintegrated into society as productive people.

Once the preventive aspect is implemented the focus could be shifted to  reformative measures

I feel like the anger that people direct towards rapists is totally fair, but that shouldn't mean that we should endorse state sanctioned brutality. That's why it makes me feel sick when people mention castration or hanging.

Nothing wrong with chemical castration . It could have beneficial outcomes in those  with hormonal problems and there have been cases where the person was aware of his condition and sought medical intervention.

Murder or genital mutilation are both unacceptable as a social response to something as serious as rape. If we want to wipe it out, we have to get a lot more serious about justice.

Gruesome crimes often evoke outrage and society reacts to it. Those responsible for framing laws and upholding justice can deliberate in a logical manner but expecting the agrieved sections to do that is impractical.

Originally posted by: _Angie_

Nothing wrong with chemical castration . It could have beneficial outcomes in those  with hormonal problems and there have been cases where the person was aware of his condition and sought medical intervention.

Gruesome crimes often evoke outrage and society reacts to it. Those responsible for framing laws and upholding justice can deliberate in a logical manner but expecting the agrieved sections to do that is impractical.

 

Originally posted by: --arti--

Well, the assumption there is that the penis caused the crime. The person did, and they can easily harm another person without a penis. Don't want to get graphic here, but a lot of cases of sexual violence show us that any number of objects can be used.

Yes any number of objects could be used but the fact is that the penis remains the most commonly used weapon of offense.

I don't know if you are insinuating that hormone problems can cause rape. Are you?

Causes leading to rape are multiple. It is about violence/ domination  but violence and sexual gratification could and do overlap.  That could be one of the reasons why the penis remains the commonest weapon of offense. Uncontrollable libido due to hormonal imbalance could lead a person  to indulge in the offense. There are reported cases who have admitted to it. Chemical castration (which is different from surgical) involves administration of medication at three monthly intervals with monitoring and could serve as a preventive/reformative  measure (which you have been advocating)  in some of the selected serial offenders. Some countries have already adopted it . The debate regarding its efficacy and practicability is still on in India.

Yeah, these kinds of crimes cause a lot of anger and pain. But it's unfair to claim that only logical professionals can think about the solutions. Those who have been affected have much more of an imperative to participate in coming up with the solutions. I think people go through different stages when they are in pain or have suffered a huge loss. They get angry, sad, go through shock and grief. But all of that is part of a process, and at the end of that process, they do want reconciliation and meaningful justice. Consider other rape victims who spoke up after the bus gang rape and offered strength and support for the victim.

Exactly but it keeps eluding them time and again. When the crime gets repeated day in and day out it offers little solace or a chance to heal.

Originally posted by: --arti--

Well, the assumption there is that the penis caused the crime. The person did, and they can easily harm another person without a penis. Don't want to get graphic here, but a lot of cases of sexual violence show us that any number of objects can be used

I think the emphasis on castration is more symbolic than an actual deterrent. The trauma of rape is not exactly in the physical act, but a lot more in the violation of one's sanctity and personhood. Similarly castration may be physical, but a lot more weight lies in the mental loss of dignity and manhood.

You raise a good point that the penis is always not the raping object. Not that it makes it any better, but had the Delhi gang rape been only penile, the girl may have survived. The brutality of the rape was in the fact that they used a foreign blunt object. There have been rapists with sexual dysfunctions who dealt exclusively with blunt objects. I'd also be curious if castration can make the rapist more sexually violent in frustration. The rapists with sexual dysfunction do tend to be more sadistic, and the less they can perform, the more necessary to use other means to exert alpha dominance.

But I still think there is a gratifying sense to castration, especially if done slowly with a cheese grater. We can always chop of the digits as good measure to prevent future foreign object rapes. I guess I'm sadistic as well.

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

The brutality of the rape was in the fact that they used a foreign blunt object. There have been rapists with sexual dysfunctions who dealt exclusively with blunt objects. I'd also be curious if castration can make the rapist more sexually violent in frustration. The rapists with sexual dysfunction do tend to be more sadistic, and the less they can perform, the more necessary to use other means to exert alpha dominance.

But I still think there is a gratifying sense to castration, especially if done slowly with a cheese grater. We can always chop of the digits as good measure to prevent future foreign object rapes. I guess I'm sadistic as well.

@ the bold- ..that could be a possibility! So best bet would be to incarcerate them where they cannot cause any more harm than they already did.  

Just for information, the blunt object wasnt all that blunt. All buses in Delhi carry an iron rod that is pointed at one end , about 4-5 feet long used as a lever while changing flat tyres of the bus. There were also reports that one of the accused plucked out the uterus with his bare hands and threw it out of the bus. The girl and her friends were beaten, kicked, stripped and thrown out of the running bus. The driver tried to mow her down but her friend pulled her out of the way. Both of them were bleeding profusely when the police found them.  Its horrible even to think of it.  Whatever be the circumstances or reason or the crime for these six accused do they deserve to be let off saying that imprisonment is no good for the victim! That the accused  can be transformed!  The girl has given her written statement accusing all six and expressed her wish to get  them  punished. Her friend too gave his testimony and even identified all six. Should people be wasting their sympathy on these demons in human form?  

 The autopsy reports are yet to come but in all probability the main accused was driven to suicide by the other inmates. The other 4 are feeling the heat now. The juvenile had incidentally complained of abdominal pain a day or so after he was arrested and was diagnosed as having appendicitis. He had to be rushed for an emergency surgery to prevent a ruptured appendix. Had he not been apprehended when he was,  he wouldn't have been able to access medical care   in time and had a ruptured appendix that leads to peritonitis a very difficult condition to treat . The ensuing intestinal infection would have led to the same fate as the girl that is resection of the intestines!  Makes one shudder!

That rape was sickening. The thought of it makes me sick. I can't imagine anyone wanting to sympathize with these men. One thing that has been blurry to me is – was the friend also sodomized? He would be a rape victim too then.

But foreign object rape is a common and serious concern – that is not solved by castration.

Originally posted by: --arti--

This thread is for those who want to discuss sexual violence:

1. Its root causes as a form of gender violence (think deep here, maybe beyond "the clothes actresses wear these days" - some have suggested that we have a rape culture, for example)

I don't think attraction is the only cause of violence.. then why would people rape a two year old.. because they are cute? It could be anger, frustration, mental instability, trauma, principles ( like how unmarried women shouldn't walk around at night alone or even with a male friend) .. and the lack of someone in their life who didn't slap them when they must have shown indications of sexual violence as a kid! 

2. How it is often discussed or portrayed (e.g. by the Western or Indian media, by upper class/middle class/poor or working class women and men)

In the most idiotic way right now. I am not sure what is the best way. 

I encourage everyone to go watch the Vagina Monologues, join V-day and the 1 billion rising and spread the word! 

3. Cultural stigma against rape

It's all about the damn tissue (as my wise friend FLS says) .. 

I am putting rape in two categories.. and also putting consensual sex next to it to highlight how ridiculous society is!

- Consensual sex after marriage : is accepted and encouraged by society.. because sex produces kids and that's good. (At least some people now support contraception.. phew!)

- Rape after marriage : How is that rape? They are married, and its the duty of the spouse to fulfil their spouse's needs.. (Notice I didn't say that victims are always women.. I am sure there are women who pounce on men too when they aren't in the mood.. except men can easily switch to that mood anytime, unless they are umm.. of a different sexual orientation?) . So society doesn't accept marital rape.. and treats a woman in contempt if she dares to come forward and say that her husband raped her, not worried about how her family will either not support her or support her and face the consequences! But the good thing is there are laws to help victims of marital rape .. and I wish they knew! On the other hand, makes me wonder if a man would ever admit he was raped by his wife...? I kind of feel bad for men now! 

- Premarital sex - Big NO from society. Poor Khusboo's name was tarnished for life for supporting premarital sex! My take on why society doesn't accept it.. There are two kinds of people who are against it .. I didn't get to do it then why should others.. OR I did get to do it but I will still say I don't support it else others will know that I did it..! What I think society should say .. I completely support premarital sex as long as it's consensual and the two people doing the act know what they are getting themselves into, take complete responsibility and are ready to face the consequences!

- Rape before marriage - Well big no again for women at least .. because the girl is now impure ..! My take.. what the eff.. what is this purity.. what does that damn tissue got to do with anything ? Fine, call girls who have consensual sex before marriage impure if you are idiots, but why also tarnish the image of girls who were victims of a brutal act? The "impure" girl might be gorgeous, smart, independent, talented, kind, generous, god-fearing, loving, caring .. the perfect dil/wife/mom material.. but no because she lost her "virginity", she is the devil! Sorry 😆 this is just too effing ridiculous.. no offense! Men on the other hand, could be raped too. Reminds me of that Akshay Kumar-Priyanka movie .. forgot the name...! But I'm sure the number of attacks on men is negligible compared to the number on women! 

4. Self-defeating ways in which we talk about rape and other forms of violence against women (e.g. "it's the woman's fault")

Everything is the woman's fault... of course.. that's just how society works.. because no matter how much we say we are getting to a point where women are considered equal.. they are still blamed for everything!.. and the funny thing is its women who are the first ones to blame other women. I am not sure what else to say here! 

5. Thoughtful, long-term strategies to end sexual violence (e.g. getting serious about rape - avoiding jokes about it and so on - as well as believing and providing support for women when they come forward to say they've been assaulted, redefining masculinity as being at all times respectful of women and their sexual choices and consent, and so on)

Free blow-up dolls and sex toys for all! 😛

Wait, I just saw you wanted thoughtful strategies. I don't think any rules could prevent it. 

The first step is to stop treating women as some delicate beings. I remember watching the news about the Pondicherry school rape case and how the minister announced that girls would have new uniforms and will be asked to go in a separate bus. The more you try to segregate them, the more they would seem like forbidden fruit and forbidden fruit is always tastier right.. ? 

Another one is proper sex education, at a very early stage. Now with internet kids have a better chance of getting to wrong information fast. Proper sex education will encourage them to talk freely about it and learn that its normal to feel attraction .. and wait, now I can't remember what I learned in my sex education class!

Three is changes in the environment in which the child is raised. A boy needs to see women being given respect at home. There was this article someone wrote somewhere (excuse my poor memory) about how guys should help out in the kitchen. It is true, why is something only meant for women ..? Hell, I can shovel snow or cut trees .. while my hubby can cook. Kids should learn that its all a partnership .. women and men are equal and should be treated with respect and love. 

Four, of course three might not be possible.. there are broken homes. Kids from broken homes should have access to therapy. 

6. How to deal with offenders as a society in a just and meaningful way (i.e. is transformative justice possible.. this really is a big question for me and I have no idea what the solution is. Or we are going to just indulge in collective anger and a tit for tat attitude, like calling for barbaric things like castration and so on, basically adding more violence in the mix, when our problem is violence in the first place).

We could use a bribe-free judicial system that ensures rapists don't walk away freely.. but then I could use a billion dollars too! One thing that is possible is to have a hearing and for the judge to pass judgement the day after rapists are captured, ensure they are punished as soon as possible. Can we have more courts to handle rape cases, please .. I think our government is getting there. 

Castration would be awesome .. but I have a better option .. can they be put in a cell with guys who have been in jail for like forever, you know the ones who have forgotten a woman's touch.. and now are craving sex in any form.. Let's see how these men would feel when they get raped ... buhahaha..