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Lord Rama, Valmiki, Luv-Kush

varaali IF-Dazzler
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Posted: 13 February 2013 at 11:59pm | IP Logged
IIRC, when Luv-Kush were born Shaturughan was present  and Rishi Valmiki narrated their lineage during the naming ceremony, through which Shatrughan came to know that they were Rama's sons. The ashram inmates would also have come to know. Then how was it that Rama alone was unaware?

Or is it possible that Rama did know that his sons were growing up at Valmiki's ashram but was unable to acknowledge it publicly?

I know this topic must have come up in the Ramayan forum, when the serial ran on Imagine TV, but am unable to locate the exact pages.

Janaki, Vrish and others who may have participated in the discussions then- please enlighten.

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Posted: 14 February 2013 at 7:56am | IP Logged
Originally posted by varaali

IIRC, when Luv-Kush were born Shaturughan was present  and Rishi Valmiki narrated their lineage during the naming ceremony, through which Shatrughan came to know that they were Rama's sons. The ashram inmates would also have come to know. Then how was it that Rama alone was unaware?

Or is it possible that Rama did know that his sons were growing up at Valmiki's ashram but was unable to acknowledge it publicly?

I know this topic must have come up in the Ramayan forum, when the serial ran on Imagine TV, but am unable to locate the exact pages.

Janaki, Vrish and others who may have participated in the discussions then- please enlighten.
 
In Valmiki Ramayana, it can be assumed that Lord Ram did know Sita and Luv Kush were at Valmiki's ashram. But in other versions of the Uttar Kand, Valmiki does not reveal the lineage of Luv Kush to Shatrughan, so Sita is known as Vandevi only until Luv Kush reveal the story to everyone at Ayodhya.Smile

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Posted: 20 February 2013 at 12:52am | IP Logged
It is possible that everyone in Valmiki's ashram Luv Kush included, Shathrugan and Ram knew who the kids were.

From what I know when Valmiki took Sita to his ashram, he just told the women there that she is a virtuous woman and she is expecting. He also asked them to look after her. I am not sure if he gave them her real name. But the people in the ashram may have found out after a while. The settings may not have been as dramatic as shown in the serials with the women sympathizing with Sita, and Luv Kush taunted by the kids in the ashram. The people of the ashram would have accepted Sita and her children without (m)any questions.So, it is possible that Luv and Kush also knew who they were but again, I am not so sure.

Ram instructed Lakshman to leave Sita near Sage Valmiki's ashram, so even if he didn't know the details, he may have been assured that she was safe in the sage's ashram.

As for Shathrugan, he certainly was there when Luv and Kush were named/born and knew who they were.  He was on his way to kill Lavanasura and visited Valmiki to get his blessing and stayed the night. According to one version, he was told by Valmiki not to mention this to anyone including his brother and he complied. Another version says that he did report all this to Ram when he went back after killing Lavanasura and his brother told him not to speak of this to anyone else. But I think Shathrugan never got the chance to return back to Ayodhya after finishing off Lavanasura. After killing the demon, he assumed command over Madhupuri and sent word to Ayodhya of his victories. Shrutkirti (and her retinue) came to Madhupuri to live with him. She may or may not have met her sister and her nephews on the way. It was 12 years later that Shathrugan met his brothers when Ram announced the Ashwamedha Yaaga. It is possible that Shaturugan told Shrutkirti but I am not sure if he did.

When Luv and Kush sang the Ramayan in front of the gathering, it was said that later someone told Ram that they both were his sons (possibly Shathrugan or it may have been the spies Ram sent to find out about them).

I really don't know which version came up with the Vandevi story but it must be the versions that have the twins fighting their father.


Edited by Vibhishna - 20 February 2013 at 12:48am

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Posted: 20 February 2013 at 7:03am | IP Logged
^^ Yes, that sounds accurate, Vibhishna. Valmiki does not have Luv Kush fighting their father or uncles, so it's possible that Ram did know about them, although like you said, Shatrughan never did get a chance to return to Ayodhya after his defeat of Lavanasura, until 12 years later.
 
Does anyone know which version has Luv Kush fighting their father and uncles? It is that version which has Sita staying in Valmiki's ashram under disguise. I remember us discussing this in the Ramayan forum but don't remember the particulars. Was it Ananda Ramayana?
 
Also, in Valmiki Ramayana, where does Sita call upon Goddess Earth? In Shri Ram's darbaar or the outskirts of Valmiki's ashram?
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Posted: 20 February 2013 at 9:57pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by JanakiRaghunath

^^ Yes, that sounds accurate, Vibhishna. Valmiki does not have Luv Kush fighting their father or uncles, so it's possible that Ram did know about them, although like you said, Shatrughan never did get a chance to return to Ayodhya after his defeat of Lavanasura, until 12 years later.
 
Does anyone know which version has Luv Kush fighting their father and uncles? It is that version which has Sita staying in Valmiki's ashram under disguise. I remember us discussing this in the Ramayan forum but don't remember the particulars. Was it Ananda Ramayana?
 
Also, in Valmiki Ramayana, where does Sita call upon Goddess Earth? In Shri Ram's darbaar or the outskirts of Valmiki's ashram?


Possibly Ananda Ramayana (and many other versions). We did discuss a lot in RF starting from why Sita was banished. I am not sure if Rama Charita Manasa also followed this version. Bhasa's Ramayana was the only one with a happy ending - Sita restored as queen and everyone lived happily ever after.

In Valmiki Ramayana, Sita calls upon the Earth Goddess in the yagnashala. It was neither in Ayodhya nor the outskirts of Rishi Valmiki's Ashram but in Naimisharanya where the sacred yagna was held. Ram summoned Sita to the yagnashala by a decree asking her to prove her innocence and she came to Naimisharanya with Valmiki and her sons.

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Posted: 20 February 2013 at 10:45pm | IP Logged
That would have been my next question. Which version has L-K fighting and trouncing their father and uncles, that has made this story so popular? 

Valmiki does not, neither does Tulsidas' RCM. 

In the versions that do have L-K fighting their uncles and almost their father, Sita goes inside Mother Earth just outside Valmiki's ashram. L-K then sing the Ramayan in Rama's court. At least this is was the ACK says.

But both the RS Ramayan and AS Ramayan made an amalgam of all available versions, I think.

Let us see what the Zee TV serial is going to do- given that it claims it is based on RCM.

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Posted: 24 February 2013 at 6:57am | IP Logged
Originally posted by varaali

That would have been my next question. Which version has L-K fighting and trouncing their father and uncles, that has made this story so popular? 

Valmiki does not, neither does Tulsidas' RCM. 

In the versions that do have L-K fighting their uncles and almost their father, Sita goes inside Mother Earth just outside Valmiki's ashram. L-K then sing the Ramayan in Rama's court. At least this is was the ACK says.

But both the RS Ramayan and AS Ramayan made an amalgam of all available versions, I think.

Let us see what the Zee TV serial is going to do- given that it claims it is based on RCM.


I remember reading a different story in ACK. ACK's Valmiki Ramayana ends with Rama's coronation. In 'The Sons of Rama', Luv, Kush don't sing the Ramayana at Naimisharanya. They capture the horse and fight their uncles and father. Rama faints on hearing they are Sita's children. They take back Rama's crown to Sita as a spoil of war. Sita is aghast at their deeds. Valmiki arrives and explains the situation and tells Rama to accept Sita again. Rama hesitates and Sita seeks refuge with the Earth Goddess. Is there a version of ACK where the twins sing the Ramayana?

I actually stopped watching Zee TV's Ramayana. Even the sets and actors couldn't make me forget how they massacred the story. But I am thinking of watching it sometime later if the story line improves. Are you following it till now?

As far as I know, Ananda Ramayana had a lot of previously unheard stories. There are so many versions of Ramayana itself from different states not to mention different countries.

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Posted: 14 April 2013 at 2:20pm | IP Logged
Varaali

Krittivas is the first version I have my hands on where Luv-Kush were said to have captured Rama's horse.  Also in Krittivas, after Sita went underground, KL started crying, which is what one would expect.  In Valmiki, they had no reaction, and the next day, just continued narrating/singing the Ramayan - the remainder of the story that was yet to happen Confused

About the battle, there are numerous stories that are all over the place, as I discussed in the Ramayan D&D thread, particularly about who accompanied the horse.  In Valmiki, it was Lakshman, and the horse went uninterrupted and Lakshman didn't have to battle anyone.  In Krittivas, it was Shatrughan, while in another book written by Bhavabhuti, it was Lakshman's 2nd son Chandraketu who accompanied the horse and fought a battle w/ Luv - in that version, Rama intervened and stopped the fight (which would have been strange, given that Rama would have had no influence on Luv).  Padma Purana totally contradicts Valmiki - whereas in Valmiki nobody dared challenge the suzerainty of Rama, in Padma Purana - everybody, right up to Veerbhadra did so.  Oh, and in Padma Purana, Bharat's 2nd son Pushkal was the one who accompanied the horse.  The stories about Rama's Ashwamedha yagna are just all over the place. Dead

Zee TV is not going to cover the part after Rama's coronation, since they have a limited #episodes to show.  Not to mention the rumors of the show being yanked due to lousy TRPs.  Both RS & AS Ramayans made up the part about Sita voluntarily going into exile, as opposed to Rama banishing her. Angry  What AS Ramayan followed sometimes was very close to Ananda Ramayan, which is one of the versions.

There are 2 ACKs - one is Valmiki, and other is Luv-Kush, and both have different accounts.  In Valmiki, it follows exactly Valmiki's version - there is no K-L capturing the horse, they do sing in Rama's yagna, Sita is summoned and goes underground.  (Vibs is right about the location - Naimisharanya, where Sita took her oath, is situated in the current UP district of Sitapur)  In K-L, they claim to follow Bhavabhuti, but don't - they follow something more similar to Krittivas, except that there is no account of K-L singing/narrating the Ramayan, which was the single great thing they were famous for.  Bhavabhuti has Chandraketu battling Luv, but that ACK had Luv defeating Shatrughan, Lakshman, Bharata and Hanuman.

About RCM, some years ago, I read one book that had the entire RCM in it - both original Avadhi & English translation.  It had an appendix called Luv-Kush kand, which again was different from anything else I've read.  But you are right - in RCM, what they called Uttarkand is about Kaagbhushandi narrating the Ramayan to Garuda, and nothing about Sita's exile, or Kush/Luv.  And as you know, Kamban deliberately avoided covering the topic.


Edited by .Vrish. - 14 April 2013 at 2:28pm

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