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Debate : Who is Respnsible? (Page 29)

sunset60 Groupbie
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Posted: 06 May 2013 at 5:00pm | IP Logged
Seriously i dont knw how to make u believe that tht statistics of rape in western countries may even be worsr than tht in india.. I m not debating on where it happens more.. I question abt how it can happen there??. Western countries do supposedly give women more freedom.. She can wear what she wants and still no one is bothered.. But is tht really so?? I just searched online and found alot of proof tht i think is credible(i m not talking abt wikipedia) which clearly proves tht rape in uk canada(just stating these two becoz i didnt search for solid proofs fot other countries) is high.. Over there too the ratio of husbands/boyfriends/relatives raping is high... Why? They hve sex education.. They open the doors for women, pull out chairs for females to sit, allow(or incourage) women to wear short clothes and dont stare hungrily at these women, hve given women an equal status, they deal with women justly,they hve a high literacy rate but then WHY DO WOMEN STILL GET RAPED OVER THERE?

I dont understand why people reading my post are constantly trying to unform me that girls wearing sarees and kamez shalwars are raped.. I think i made tht clear tht i dont think what the girl wears at the time maters.. Bcoz the guy's brain already became filth long back..
I think tht mentalilty tht develops bcox of exposure to skin show is to be blamed.. Other factors also exist.. Maybe some hve a higher influence on the mentality of developing brains of rapists.. But everyone speaks of those issues.. People are soo busy trying to defend movies and skinshow and the whole freedom to wear what u want bit tht they dont want to open their eyes towards this factor.. This is exactly why i want to speak abt it..

I m on the same page with all of u where u state that the mentality is to be blamed.. And i dont want to put the blame on just one factor.. But this factor SHOULD be discussed properly by the youth rather than being sidelined bcoz of it being unmodern..

If i m blessed with a son then ya i m going to teach him to respect women, To not hve the bckwards mentality tht he can rule women be it his sisters or wife or daughters.. AND i wont let his mind to b influenced by 'bad factors' specially in his tender age..

I knw p*rn is very readily available everywhere.. I can get it for free on my cell if i want to.. But tht thing us tht u dont go to cinema to watch p*rn with ur family do u? But movies hve made it pretty easy for us to accept skinshow.. U knw bcoz i hve analysed this in alot of families a long time before this rape issue came up..

And yes i do find educating ALL men to not rape women an incredulous idea bcoz it cant be done.. I dont knw how u can do tht.. U can use the media to create awareness.. But making people believe in what u say is not always possible.. U csn make everyone hear abt the evils of rape but can u make them realise in their hearts that they shouldnt do it..

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Krani

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Posted: 08 May 2013 at 8:52am | IP Logged
Originally posted by sunset60

Seriously i dont knw how to make u believe that tht statistics of rape in western countries may even be worsr than tht in india.. I m not debating on where it happens more.. I question abt how it can happen there??. Western countries do supposedly give women more freedom.. She can wear what she wants and still no one is bothered.. But is tht really so?? I just searched online and found alot of proof tht i think is credible(i m not talking abt wikipedia) which clearly proves tht rape in uk canada(just stating these two becoz i didnt search for solid proofs fot other countries) is high.. Over there too the ratio of husbands/boyfriends/relatives raping is high... Why? They hve sex education.. They open the doors for women, pull out chairs for females to sit, allow(or incourage) women to wear short clothes and dont stare hungrily at these women, hve given women an equal status, they deal with women justly,they hve a high literacy rate but then WHY DO WOMEN STILL GET RAPED OVER THERE?

I dont understand why people reading my post are constantly trying to unform me that girls wearing sarees and kamez shalwars are raped.. I think i made tht clear tht i dont think what the girl wears at the time maters.. Bcoz the guy's brain already became filth long back..
I think tht mentalilty tht develops bcox of exposure to skin show is to be blamed.. Other factors also exist.. Maybe some hve a higher influence on the mentality of developing brains of rapists.. But everyone speaks of those issues.. People are soo busy trying to defend movies and skinshow and the whole freedom to wear what u want bit tht they dont want to open their eyes towards this factor.. This is exactly why i want to speak abt it..

I m on the same page with all of u where u state that the mentality is to be blamed.. And i dont want to put the blame on just one factor.. But this factor SHOULD be discussed properly by the youth rather than being sidelined bcoz of it being unmodern..

If i m blessed with a son then ya i m going to teach him to respect women, To not hve the bckwards mentality tht he can rule women be it his sisters or wife or daughters.. AND i wont let his mind to b influenced by 'bad factors' specially in his tender age..

I knw p*rn is very readily available everywhere.. I can get it for free on my cell if i want to.. But tht thing us tht u dont go to cinema to watch p*rn with ur family do u? But movies hve made it pretty easy for us to accept skinshow.. U knw bcoz i hve analysed this in alot of families a long time before this rape issue came up..

And yes i do find educating ALL men to not rape women an incredulous idea bcoz it cant be done.. I dont knw how u can do tht.. U can use the media to create awareness.. But making people believe in what u say is not always possible.. U csn make everyone hear abt the evils of rape but can u make them realise in their hearts that they shouldnt do it..

Okay, I really don't know how to get this across to you properly, so I am going to just say it. 
 

If you are trying to use the American statistics to prove a point that the modernisation, and media has caused the rapes then I would like to tell you that 50-70-heck even 100 years ago rape existed. It's not like a girl came on screen showing skin, the men came out with wagging tongues and raped the first woman they saw. 

So you are pretty much saying that the men's mind goes corrupt after seeing the skin of a woman that they don't care who it is, what they are doing and they go and rape. Alrighty then.
I am glad you at least acknowledge that there are several factors involved in a rapist's mindset, but let me correct and elaborate a bit for you:

Rape in India especially, is caused by the instilled mindset in people's mind of the role of women. The sexism that exists (worldwide) often objectifies and subjects women to certain stereotypical roles which usually make her seem lesser than a man. 
This causes them to think that they have a right over her. 

Before, (and even now probably, in some places) a woman's worth was valued by her virginity. If she bled on the first night, then she was pure. If she did not, then she was subjected to all kinds of torture. 
Did any of that apply to men? Nope. In fact they were considered to be "mard" after doing the deed, while women were just thought to warm the bed at night. 

Okay, now you are going to bring in the Western thing as well and be like "what about America.." 
well sexism is not just lone to India. Yes, it's a lot more apparent in India, but it exists worldwide. 
I am not going to deny that you cannot place the entire blame on sexism, but the bottom of the thing is how women are viewed and respected. 

How a woman dresses is not an indication of how much respect she deserves. 

Now you are going to say that media fuels these sexist views - and I do not deny that - but censoring the media is not going to get rid of the original problem - sexism. 
You are treating the symptom here...

Also, I feel that however a woman dresses is her choice. Whatever she decides to do, is her choice. If she wants to go on a  stage and freaking dance in front of 100 men, so what

Let his mind be influenced by "bad factors" LOL good luck with that :') 
You have as much control on what your son will be exposed to, as much as you have control over sand slipping between your fingers. 

So wait, because we go to movies with families which show a bit of skin, you are saying we accept rape? What?

They thought educating people on racism was an incredulous idea - they got that, didn't they?
They thought that getting women their rights was an incredulous idea - they got that, didn't they?

Don't underestimate the power of education. Personally, I find educating people to not rape and respect women, is a better solution than putting restrictions on the media, the way people behave, dress etc in order to not provoke being raped. But hey, that's just my view. Clearly we disagree in that regards...
Also, you may educate one person to respect a woman - that makes one less man who is potentially going to rape. 


~K


Edited by Krani - 08 May 2013 at 9:08am

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meghasingh

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Posted: 08 May 2013 at 11:06am | IP Logged
Did i say rape never existed? Yes it did.. Its there for not hundred but thousands of years(i hve read in history).. My question is tht americans hve free highschool for all.. They hve education.. Y is rape so common over there?
What makes women an object of sex.. Dont u think by appearing sexy we r trying to objectify overselves as sex symbols?

Yes educating people around us is important but it is not a complete solution!!



By saying that we go to movies wid our famiies to watch movies wid skin show i m saying tht this has become a part of our life.. We dont c whats wrong wid skinshow...

I m against the traditional steriotype mentality that treats women as lower grade humans... People around me r also the same.. They never look at the bedsheet after the wedding night.. And those who hve these views they r being educated by on this matter...i never said tht i support this nor hve i said tht these factors are not unfluencing the mindset of people.. But in my view the 'feminist' view is not actually feminist... I think females in the hope of glorifying themselves are actually degrading us... We dont need to appear sexy... We dont need to attract people.. We r what we r.. We dont need to show our skin to sell stuff.. I find it highly insulting..

Edited by sunset60 - 08 May 2013 at 1:16pm
Krani IF-Dazzler
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Posted: 08 May 2013 at 8:39pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by sunset60

Did i say rape never existed? Yes it did.. Its there for not hundred but thousands of years(i hve read in history).. My question is tht americans hve free highschool for all.. They hve education.. Y is rape so common over there? 

Are you saying India doesn't have any education or highschools LOL Clearly the factors I pointed out above come into play as well. America does have a high crime rate, and therefore the rape rate is high. However if you are talking about the West, I would like to take Melbourne as an example. Low crime rate, low rape rate, and yet there is modernisation around. So clearly, media and modernisation is not the only reason why rapes are happening the West. 

What makes women an object of sex.. Dont u think by appearing sexy we r trying to objectify overselves as sex symbols?

When I go out dressed sexily, I am not doing it so the man can rape me, I am doing it because I want to look hot. When I do it, I am not doing it to seem like a sex object, I am doing it because I want to look and feel great. If I go out and dance, flirt etc with a guy, and he starts to come onto me, and if I say "No" he has to back away. So me wearing a sexy dress does not make me a sexual object - if a man (or a woman) views me as such, that reflects their disgusting and ignorant thinking. 
Why the hell should that right to show skin be taken away from women? Why should only men have the right to go around shirtless, or with muscles showing. Why shouldn't men be forced to cover up as well? And don't tell me that's because men aren't raped, because men are raped as well. 

Yes educating people around us is important but it is not a complete solution!!

Neither is the media censoring, or getting women to be appropriately dressed...
But education would not oppress women, or the media, or free speech...


By saying that we go to movies wid our famiies to watch movies wid skin show i m saying tht this has become a part of our life.. We dont c whats wrong wid skinshow...

Why should there be anything wrong with skin show? Why should people have to cover up everywhere. 
You are essentially saying that the victim has to be careful to not be raped, rather than having the men not rape women. Why are you constantly asking the victim to change?

I would also like to say that areas where such "skin-shows" are not viewed favourably, women still get raped there. 

I m against the traditional steriotype mentality that treats women as lower grade humans... People around me r also the same.. They never look at the bedsheet after the wedding night.. And those who hve these views they r being educated by on this matter...i never said tht i support this nor hve i said tht these factors are not unfluencing the mindset of people.. But in my view the 'feminist' view is not actually feminist... I think females in the hope of glorifying themselves are actually degrading us... We dont need to appear sexy... We dont need to attract people.. We r what we r.. We dont need to show our skin to sell stuff.. I find it highly insulting..

Degrading women by giving them equal rights? Degrading women by giving them the freedom to wear what they want?
You know how the Burqa was banned in France, there was a whole outcry against the movement. because they were taking away the right for women to dress as they pleased. While some thought Some thought that wearing the Burqa oppressed women (I don't agree with that), others thought that it was their wish to be fully-clothed head to toe, so what's the problem in that? And I support that. 
Since there is no problem in a woman being covered head to toe, with only her eyes showing, then what is the problem in a girl wearing a bikini. Why are you so hell-bent on taking awya this right of a woman to do as she pleases?

If you say that you don't have a problem with women wearing short clothes, or showing their skin - then banning the media from showing such stuff...what is that going to achieve? In fact it would make it more...apparent that somebody is wearign short clothes, and the girl's character will be constantly questioned if all the media shows is sari-wearing leads, while the men have the freedom to do what they want... 


My replies in red above. 

Yes, I am not going to deny that the media often uses these item songs to sell their movies etc, however in my opinion, I don't think that's an excuse for rape at all. If your sole argument is that the media should stop portraying women in a vulgar way - fair enough, but if your argument is that because women are protrayed in a vulgar way, rape occurs - I am not going to support that at all. 

Media uses to sell their product depending on their target audience. 

For women, they are not as sexual/visual as men are, and therefore a lot of ads that are targeted towards them are not really sexually charged. However I have come across every ad here and there where the sexual innuendos (against men) are so much that it can make a woman blush, but it does its job right and it sells the product. 
Ads where there is a focus on the "size" of a man's thing, or where the centre of attention is whether a woman gets her pleasure from a man - so women are not the only ones who are subjected to the bad end of the media. 

Also men who are flexing and stripping shirtless on a screen - such as John Abraham in Dostana - do you think they do it because they want to show the men their muscular body? Um no, they do it because it attracts the woman's eye. 

Does that mean that the fact a man is showing his body in movies is a reason enough that men are raped?

what about children? Surely a person dancing and stripping in the movies has nothing to do with a child (who hasn't even hit puberty) to be sexually abused? What about them?

Yes, the media does project women in an unfavourable light, and yes I agree sometimes it gets too much. The song 'fevicol se' made me cringe - however if some man came out and said "Kareena danced to fevicol se, therefore I decided to rape" I would slap that man and tell him to stop putting the blame on other factors when the real blame lies in the culprit - nobody/nothing else. 

~K


Edited by Krani - 08 May 2013 at 11:09pm

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meghasingh

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Posted: 10 May 2013 at 5:56am | IP Logged
Good topic. 

Okay  here  are  my  views.

Who  is Responsible?
Answering  a  question  like  this  may  seem easy but it  is  indeed very difficult. Responsibility  of  this  criminal  activity  is  not  just  of  the  Animal  who  has  done  it.
We  all  share  it  too. Don't  we?
A  man,  frustrated,sexually and  well  mentally,too  rapes  a girl.He  victimizes  her  and  leaves her  to be  dirtied more.The  age  of  the  victim  varies, it  could  be  a  mature  forty  year  old  or a  lively  twenty  year old or  as  a  matter  of  fact  a  small  five  year  old. 
He  dirties  her  body  by  inflicting  himself  upon her. She  couldn't  protect  herself. Not  because she  didn't  want  to,  but  because  she  wasn't  ABLE  to. She,  can't live  anymore. Bear  the  humility,te  pain  anymore.
We  ALL  take candles  for  her  soul, to  rest in  peace; we  ALL  mutter  sentences  like "Police  didn't  help  her","Poor girl",  etc. But  at  the  same time,  when  the  girl  was  suffering  while  that  Animal, touched  her  everywhere,the  same, people  i.e  we  looked up  on.
We  saw, We  offered  condolence,  But  at  the  end  of  the  day,  did  We  actually DO  anything  substantial?
Nope. You  know  why  because?
Not  because humanity  doesn't  exist. But  because  we're  all  too  selfish. We're  busy  fishing out  of our  own  problems that we don't  really  have  the  time  to pay  attention  to  such  things. We  are  scared and  don't  have  the  guts to  stop  all this. To ,  for  once  make  a  move.

When  a girl  wears  clothes  that  make  her  look  good, Men  get  attracted  to  her. And  we  blame  them  for  their  incoherent  attraction  and  any  misbehavior. True. They're  responsible. But  hey ,  guess  what! Their mothers  who  are  ladies  themselves  often  say things  like "She  wears  such  clothes  that  attracts  men".
I  mean  cuh-mon, what's  that  all  about?
Don't  girls  have  the  right  to  enhance  their  beauty?
Should  we  always  in  live  in  fear,  that  if  we're  good  looking  we will always  have  to hide  ourselves?

Basically all  I'm  saying  is, the  overly  hyped,  good  for  nothing  Society,   that  we live  in  needs a change.And  its the society  that  is responsible.

-Adya.
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Posted: 10 May 2013 at 7:38am | IP Logged
IN my opinion, it's nt the 1 thing responsible for it...bt all things togeather      1st of all the mentality of that bloody persons who does all this things, then the act..only 10 years jail to all these persons, they all should b handed over to the public and let they decide what to do with them...and finally the culture, the victam who goes through all these things had too face these so called culture, which w'll nt give her any option other than to die...to stop these things, all should b changed, our mentality, culture and the act...
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Posted: 10 May 2013 at 10:32pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by meghasingh

Originally posted by -zozo-

Originally posted by meghasingh

@janakiraghunath...decent clothing...what does it means...one u wear at school and college?? we do wear skirts, shorts, and dresses there...and that's what we are bashed for... so should we start dressing up in burqa...??
u say it like its a bad thing :/... if u want to there is nothing wrong in wearing an abia... as per my bias opinion its a praise worthy thing to do... but to each its own no one said you HAVE too.. and one more thing i think what she was trying to say was that wear what ever floats your boat but in a CIVIL manner 


zozo...i m not against burqa or hizab...or anything like this. my point is why should someone tell us that u should wear this in this manner otherwise if u'll be raped it'll be ur responsibility. My point is simply this whether a woman wear burqa or bikni, leave her alone, its her body, her choice. Who are you to judge what's wrong and what's right? or what's civil or what's not?
ok so does that mean you'd  actually wear a bikini in public? ... No I don't think so... did I say that if u don't wear an Abia it's a bad thing? I reckon I didn't ... CIVIL... Is that a bad thing? Why would you rather run around looking like a s**t for the lack of a better term? Wear whatever you like that does not mean you go around flaunting yourself in a mini skirt which if u bend down in, it emphasizes EVERYTHING personally my father would never let me wear such clothing,.. And nor do I want too... 
Your right wear whatever u want... But remember and keep this in mind this output you represent yourself with is the little thing which gives people a reason more importantly the media to say such things like "she asked for it" even if she didn't... This may sound harsh but it's true and this is coming from a girl... Oh and BTW I'm not saying that its all the girls fault...guys with their lack of intelligence make the situation problematic as well... 

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rasyafan

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Posted: 10 May 2013 at 11:10pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by -zozo-

Originally posted by meghasingh

Originally posted by -zozo-

Originally posted by meghasingh

@janakiraghunath...decent clothing...what does it means...one u wear at school and college?? we do wear skirts, shorts, and dresses there...and that's what we are bashed for... so should we start dressing up in burqa...??
u say it like its a bad thing :/... if u want to there is nothing wrong in wearing an abia... as per my bias opinion its a praise worthy thing to do... but to each its own no one said you HAVE too.. and one more thing i think what she was trying to say was that wear what ever floats your boat but in a CIVIL manner 


zozo...i m not against burqa or hizab...or anything like this. my point is why should someone tell us that u should wear this in this manner otherwise if u'll be raped it'll be ur responsibility. My point is simply this whether a woman wear burqa or bikni, leave her alone, its her body, her choice. Who are you to judge what's wrong and what's right? or what's civil or what's not?
ok so does that mean you'd  actually wear a bikini in public? ... No I don't think so... did I say that if u don't wear an Abia it's a bad thing? I reckon I didn't ... CIVIL... Is that a bad thing? Why would you rather run around looking like a s**t for the lack of a better term? Wear whatever you like that does not mean you go around flaunting yourself in a mini skirt which if u bend down in, it emphasizes EVERYTHING personally my father would never let me wear such clothing,.. And nor do I want too... 
Your right wear whatever u want... But remember and keep this in mind this output you represent yourself with is the little thing which gives people a reason more importantly the media to say such things like "she asked for it" even if she didn't... This may sound harsh but it's true and this is coming from a girl... Oh and BTW I'm not saying that its all the girls fault...guys with their lack of intelligence make the situation problematic as well... 

With all due respect, I do not agree.

The point is not if one would wear a bikini in a public or not, the point is that she should be allowed to wear WHATEVER she wants. The codes of civility are up to the girl, her family, her parents. If they don't have a problem with it, so shouldn't anyone else. Why, men wear shorts and half sleeve Tees all the time, why isn't it "flaunting" then? heck! In small towns, many sit outside their houses wearing only the inner wear. I know to Media will say such things, but that is what should change. Plus I don't think , change in clothes means rape aren't committed. Many a rape victim was wearing a salwaar kameez, showing minimal parts of her body, why where men "provoked" then?

And just to explain my POV, I wrote something long back in the writers corner explaining this very opinion, if you have a bit of time, do read it out :) 


-Risha

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