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Debate : Who is Respnsible? (Page 28)

-bharti- IF-Rockerz
-bharti-
-bharti-

Joined: 20 September 2010
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Posted: 01 May 2013 at 8:41pm | IP Logged
Its the patriarchial upbringing where from birth it is ingrained that male is superior and females need to be protected from outsiders but can be used n abused by own family.  They are like trophies owned, showcased and discarded if tragedy befalls her cause the honour of the family is tainted.  
The mindset is to be blamed, the same who leer at other women fiercely guard their own women.  
Most men dont consider women to have a life of their OWN.  They cannot tolerate women achieving academic or career success, cause they take it as an upfront to their manhood.  
A married woman faces more biases with the added burden of appeasing in laws, husband, children, etc,..  She is expected to carry the burden of upholding the honour of all these leeches.  Its a sad sad state of affairs. All arguments of dress, bollywood, western influences is one big BULLSHIT !
Its all in the filthy brain which views women as objects of pleasure.  

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Krani

Krani IF-Dazzler
Krani
Krani

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Posted: 01 May 2013 at 10:39pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by -bharti-

Its the patriarchial upbringing where from birth it is ingrained that male is superior and females need to be protected from outsiders but can be used n abused by own family.  They are like trophies owned, showcased and discarded if tragedy befalls her cause the honour of the family is tainted.  
The mindset is to be blamed, the same who leer at other women fiercely guard their own women.  
Most men dont consider women to have a life of their OWN.  They cannot tolerate women achieving academic or career success, cause they take it as an upfront to their manhood.  
A married woman faces more biases with the added burden of appeasing in laws, husband, children, etc,..  She is expected to carry the burden of upholding the honour of all these leeches.  Its a sad sad state of affairs. All arguments of dress, bollywood, western influences is one big BULLSHIT !
Its all in the filthy brain which views women as objects of pleasure.  

To me it seems that people don't want to open their eyes and realise that the fault lies in their own mindset, and not in what they see on TV or movies. 
They keep passing off the blame to such things because it's easier to remove them from the public's eye, rather than making the effort to actually educate and reform the public. 

The whole disrespect for women does not erupt from watching Shiela Ki Jawaani, etc, it comes from seeing the injustice around you and accepting it for life, hence committing the crimes and getting away with it. 

Yes, objectification of women should stop in the media, but to pass off the blame solely on the media for the rapists raping is silly, in my opinion. 
If that's the case then just don't go for such movies? 

~K
LivingInPajamas IF-Rockerz
LivingInPajamas
LivingInPajamas

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Posts: 8646

Posted: 02 May 2013 at 1:20am | IP Logged
There can never be ANY sane person who will commit rape because he saw an item song or movie with girls as they say in "short clothes". Rape is always because of the mentality an individual possesses and NOT because a certain girl "provoked" him. It's really horrendous that many in our society including the so called representatives of power ,the politicians, believe and argue that the girl should have been more careful, the girl should have worn traditional clothing etc. FYI , there are rapes committed to girls who dress up in sarees or salwaar kameez too. It has absolutely nothing to do with the clothing whatsoever.

The root cause, at least in my POV is the socially acceptable evils in our society as well as the development in smaller towns and villages. I say that because I am a small town girl but I live in Delhi for education. I agree that rich and educated people also commit rapes but a majority of the rapes are committed by labourers and bus drivers and such who have migrated to the city for work. And I will take the liberty to say that sadly, many of them are from the state I hail from , Bihar.

Rapes have NOTHING to do with a particular state or region, that is true in itself. But I choose to believe that it does have to do with the huge gap between development in smaller towns and big cities. When I go back to my hometown, dressed in a jeans and tshirt, I will have innumerous eyes staring at me. Stares that can make you shiver. The low literacy rates, the huge population and absolutely no exposure to independent women leads to these men believing that women are their property. And when they migrate to cities, they suddenly see so many women and girls who are independent, who believe they are equal to men. This provokes them. Plus our country is largely ignorant towards sex education. Talking about sex is a taboo. If we were more broad minded in talking about sex, with our parents as well as anyone else, things would change. 

The government never does enough to increase literacy rates and nor does the society, who still marries girls off at the age of 13 and restrict their movement. If change is needed then it has to be not just strict laws but also retaliation from the society. Earlier, the girl would be talked about if she was raped but today, suddenly there IS some change occurring. Even villages and small towns are shut down because of one rape. The mindset is changing, it will take time,but I do believe that there is more anger on rape than ever before. If there was more emphasis on educating people, morally and not just by the books, things would get better.


-Risha


Edited by Amethyst. - 02 May 2013 at 1:25am

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Krani_Angie_

Krani IF-Dazzler
Krani
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Posted: 02 May 2013 at 1:27am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Amethyst.

There can never be ANY sane person who will commit rape because he saw an item song or movie with girls as they say in "short clothes". Rape is always because of the mentality an individual possesses and NOT because a certain girl "provoked" him. It's really horrendous that many in our society including the so called representatives of power ,the politicians, believe and argue that the girl should have been more careful, the girl should have worn traditional clothing etc. FYI , there are rapes committed to girls who dress up in sarees or salwaar kameez too. It has absolutely nothing to do with the clothing whatsoever.

The root cause, at least in my POV is the socially acceptable evils in our society as well as the development in smaller towns and villages. I say that because I am a small town girl but I live in Delhi for education. I agree that rich and educated people also commit rapes but a majority of the rapes are committed by labourers and bus drivers and such who have migrated to the city for work. And I will take the liberty to say that sadly, many of them are from the state I hail from , Bihar.

Rapes have NOTHING to do with a particular state or region, that is true in itself. But I choose to believe that it does have to do with the huge gap between development in smaller towns and big cities. When I go back to my hometown, dressed in a jeans and tshirt, I will have innumerous eyes staring at me. Stares that can make you shiver. The low literacy rates, the huge population and absolutely no exposure to independent women leads to these men believing that women are their property. And when they migrate to cities, they suddenly see so many women and girls who are independent, who believe they are equal to men. This provokes them. Plus our country is largely ignorant towards sex education. Talking about sex is a taboo. If we were more broad minded in talking about sex, with our parents as well as anyone else, things would change. 

The government never does enough to increase literacy rates and nor does the society, who still marries girls off at the age of 13 and restrict their movement. If change is needed then it has to be not just strict laws but also retaliation from the society. Earlier, the girl would be talked about if she was raped but today, suddenly there IS some change occurring. Even villages and small towns are shut down because of one rape. The mindset is changing, it will take time,but I do believe that there is more anger on rape than ever before. If there was more emphasis on educating people, morally and not just by the books, things would get better.


-Risha

Well-written! 

@Bold: This


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LivingInPajamas

sunset60 Groupbie
sunset60
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Joined: 26 November 2008
Posts: 53

Posted: 06 May 2013 at 5:00pm | IP Logged
Seriously i dont knw how to make u believe that tht statistics of rape in western countries may even be worsr than tht in india.. I m not debating on where it happens more.. I question abt how it can happen there??. Western countries do supposedly give women more freedom.. She can wear what she wants and still no one is bothered.. But is tht really so?? I just searched online and found alot of proof tht i think is credible(i m not talking abt wikipedia) which clearly proves tht rape in uk canada(just stating these two becoz i didnt search for solid proofs fot other countries) is high.. Over there too the ratio of husbands/boyfriends/relatives raping is high... Why? They hve sex education.. They open the doors for women, pull out chairs for females to sit, allow(or incourage) women to wear short clothes and dont stare hungrily at these women, hve given women an equal status, they deal with women justly,they hve a high literacy rate but then WHY DO WOMEN STILL GET RAPED OVER THERE?

I dont understand why people reading my post are constantly trying to unform me that girls wearing sarees and kamez shalwars are raped.. I think i made tht clear tht i dont think what the girl wears at the time maters.. Bcoz the guy's brain already became filth long back..
I think tht mentalilty tht develops bcox of exposure to skin show is to be blamed.. Other factors also exist.. Maybe some hve a higher influence on the mentality of developing brains of rapists.. But everyone speaks of those issues.. People are soo busy trying to defend movies and skinshow and the whole freedom to wear what u want bit tht they dont want to open their eyes towards this factor.. This is exactly why i want to speak abt it..

I m on the same page with all of u where u state that the mentality is to be blamed.. And i dont want to put the blame on just one factor.. But this factor SHOULD be discussed properly by the youth rather than being sidelined bcoz of it being unmodern..

If i m blessed with a son then ya i m going to teach him to respect women, To not hve the bckwards mentality tht he can rule women be it his sisters or wife or daughters.. AND i wont let his mind to b influenced by 'bad factors' specially in his tender age..

I knw p*rn is very readily available everywhere.. I can get it for free on my cell if i want to.. But tht thing us tht u dont go to cinema to watch p*rn with ur family do u? But movies hve made it pretty easy for us to accept skinshow.. U knw bcoz i hve analysed this in alot of families a long time before this rape issue came up..

And yes i do find educating ALL men to not rape women an incredulous idea bcoz it cant be done.. I dont knw how u can do tht.. U can use the media to create awareness.. But making people believe in what u say is not always possible.. U csn make everyone hear abt the evils of rape but can u make them realise in their hearts that they shouldnt do it..

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Krani

Krani IF-Dazzler
Krani
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Posts: 3423

Posted: 08 May 2013 at 8:52am | IP Logged
Originally posted by sunset60

Seriously i dont knw how to make u believe that tht statistics of rape in western countries may even be worsr than tht in india.. I m not debating on where it happens more.. I question abt how it can happen there??. Western countries do supposedly give women more freedom.. She can wear what she wants and still no one is bothered.. But is tht really so?? I just searched online and found alot of proof tht i think is credible(i m not talking abt wikipedia) which clearly proves tht rape in uk canada(just stating these two becoz i didnt search for solid proofs fot other countries) is high.. Over there too the ratio of husbands/boyfriends/relatives raping is high... Why? They hve sex education.. They open the doors for women, pull out chairs for females to sit, allow(or incourage) women to wear short clothes and dont stare hungrily at these women, hve given women an equal status, they deal with women justly,they hve a high literacy rate but then WHY DO WOMEN STILL GET RAPED OVER THERE?

I dont understand why people reading my post are constantly trying to unform me that girls wearing sarees and kamez shalwars are raped.. I think i made tht clear tht i dont think what the girl wears at the time maters.. Bcoz the guy's brain already became filth long back..
I think tht mentalilty tht develops bcox of exposure to skin show is to be blamed.. Other factors also exist.. Maybe some hve a higher influence on the mentality of developing brains of rapists.. But everyone speaks of those issues.. People are soo busy trying to defend movies and skinshow and the whole freedom to wear what u want bit tht they dont want to open their eyes towards this factor.. This is exactly why i want to speak abt it..

I m on the same page with all of u where u state that the mentality is to be blamed.. And i dont want to put the blame on just one factor.. But this factor SHOULD be discussed properly by the youth rather than being sidelined bcoz of it being unmodern..

If i m blessed with a son then ya i m going to teach him to respect women, To not hve the bckwards mentality tht he can rule women be it his sisters or wife or daughters.. AND i wont let his mind to b influenced by 'bad factors' specially in his tender age..

I knw p*rn is very readily available everywhere.. I can get it for free on my cell if i want to.. But tht thing us tht u dont go to cinema to watch p*rn with ur family do u? But movies hve made it pretty easy for us to accept skinshow.. U knw bcoz i hve analysed this in alot of families a long time before this rape issue came up..

And yes i do find educating ALL men to not rape women an incredulous idea bcoz it cant be done.. I dont knw how u can do tht.. U can use the media to create awareness.. But making people believe in what u say is not always possible.. U csn make everyone hear abt the evils of rape but can u make them realise in their hearts that they shouldnt do it..

Okay, I really don't know how to get this across to you properly, so I am going to just say it. 
 

If you are trying to use the American statistics to prove a point that the modernisation, and media has caused the rapes then I would like to tell you that 50-70-heck even 100 years ago rape existed. It's not like a girl came on screen showing skin, the men came out with wagging tongues and raped the first woman they saw. 

So you are pretty much saying that the men's mind goes corrupt after seeing the skin of a woman that they don't care who it is, what they are doing and they go and rape. Alrighty then.
I am glad you at least acknowledge that there are several factors involved in a rapist's mindset, but let me correct and elaborate a bit for you:

Rape in India especially, is caused by the instilled mindset in people's mind of the role of women. The sexism that exists (worldwide) often objectifies and subjects women to certain stereotypical roles which usually make her seem lesser than a man. 
This causes them to think that they have a right over her. 

Before, (and even now probably, in some places) a woman's worth was valued by her virginity. If she bled on the first night, then she was pure. If she did not, then she was subjected to all kinds of torture. 
Did any of that apply to men? Nope. In fact they were considered to be "mard" after doing the deed, while women were just thought to warm the bed at night. 

Okay, now you are going to bring in the Western thing as well and be like "what about America.." 
well sexism is not just lone to India. Yes, it's a lot more apparent in India, but it exists worldwide. 
I am not going to deny that you cannot place the entire blame on sexism, but the bottom of the thing is how women are viewed and respected. 

How a woman dresses is not an indication of how much respect she deserves. 

Now you are going to say that media fuels these sexist views - and I do not deny that - but censoring the media is not going to get rid of the original problem - sexism. 
You are treating the symptom here...

Also, I feel that however a woman dresses is her choice. Whatever she decides to do, is her choice. If she wants to go on a  stage and freaking dance in front of 100 men, so what

Let his mind be influenced by "bad factors" LOL good luck with that :') 
You have as much control on what your son will be exposed to, as much as you have control over sand slipping between your fingers. 

So wait, because we go to movies with families which show a bit of skin, you are saying we accept rape? What?

They thought educating people on racism was an incredulous idea - they got that, didn't they?
They thought that getting women their rights was an incredulous idea - they got that, didn't they?

Don't underestimate the power of education. Personally, I find educating people to not rape and respect women, is a better solution than putting restrictions on the media, the way people behave, dress etc in order to not provoke being raped. But hey, that's just my view. Clearly we disagree in that regards...
Also, you may educate one person to respect a woman - that makes one less man who is potentially going to rape. 


~K


Edited by Krani - 08 May 2013 at 9:08am

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salta

sunset60 Groupbie
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Posted: 08 May 2013 at 11:06am | IP Logged
Did i say rape never existed? Yes it did.. Its there for not hundred but thousands of years(i hve read in history).. My question is tht americans hve free highschool for all.. They hve education.. Y is rape so common over there?
What makes women an object of sex.. Dont u think by appearing sexy we r trying to objectify overselves as sex symbols?

Yes educating people around us is important but it is not a complete solution!!



By saying that we go to movies wid our famiies to watch movies wid skin show i m saying tht this has become a part of our life.. We dont c whats wrong wid skinshow...

I m against the traditional steriotype mentality that treats women as lower grade humans... People around me r also the same.. They never look at the bedsheet after the wedding night.. And those who hve these views they r being educated by on this matter...i never said tht i support this nor hve i said tht these factors are not unfluencing the mindset of people.. But in my view the 'feminist' view is not actually feminist... I think females in the hope of glorifying themselves are actually degrading us... We dont need to appear sexy... We dont need to attract people.. We r what we r.. We dont need to show our skin to sell stuff.. I find it highly insulting..

Edited by sunset60 - 08 May 2013 at 1:16pm
Krani IF-Dazzler
Krani
Krani

Joined: 27 September 2008
Posts: 3423

Posted: 08 May 2013 at 8:39pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by sunset60

Did i say rape never existed? Yes it did.. Its there for not hundred but thousands of years(i hve read in history).. My question is tht americans hve free highschool for all.. They hve education.. Y is rape so common over there? 

Are you saying India doesn't have any education or highschools LOL Clearly the factors I pointed out above come into play as well. America does have a high crime rate, and therefore the rape rate is high. However if you are talking about the West, I would like to take Melbourne as an example. Low crime rate, low rape rate, and yet there is modernisation around. So clearly, media and modernisation is not the only reason why rapes are happening the West. 

What makes women an object of sex.. Dont u think by appearing sexy we r trying to objectify overselves as sex symbols?

When I go out dressed sexily, I am not doing it so the man can rape me, I am doing it because I want to look hot. When I do it, I am not doing it to seem like a sex object, I am doing it because I want to look and feel great. If I go out and dance, flirt etc with a guy, and he starts to come onto me, and if I say "No" he has to back away. So me wearing a sexy dress does not make me a sexual object - if a man (or a woman) views me as such, that reflects their disgusting and ignorant thinking. 
Why the hell should that right to show skin be taken away from women? Why should only men have the right to go around shirtless, or with muscles showing. Why shouldn't men be forced to cover up as well? And don't tell me that's because men aren't raped, because men are raped as well. 

Yes educating people around us is important but it is not a complete solution!!

Neither is the media censoring, or getting women to be appropriately dressed...
But education would not oppress women, or the media, or free speech...


By saying that we go to movies wid our famiies to watch movies wid skin show i m saying tht this has become a part of our life.. We dont c whats wrong wid skinshow...

Why should there be anything wrong with skin show? Why should people have to cover up everywhere. 
You are essentially saying that the victim has to be careful to not be raped, rather than having the men not rape women. Why are you constantly asking the victim to change?

I would also like to say that areas where such "skin-shows" are not viewed favourably, women still get raped there. 

I m against the traditional steriotype mentality that treats women as lower grade humans... People around me r also the same.. They never look at the bedsheet after the wedding night.. And those who hve these views they r being educated by on this matter...i never said tht i support this nor hve i said tht these factors are not unfluencing the mindset of people.. But in my view the 'feminist' view is not actually feminist... I think females in the hope of glorifying themselves are actually degrading us... We dont need to appear sexy... We dont need to attract people.. We r what we r.. We dont need to show our skin to sell stuff.. I find it highly insulting..

Degrading women by giving them equal rights? Degrading women by giving them the freedom to wear what they want?
You know how the Burqa was banned in France, there was a whole outcry against the movement. because they were taking away the right for women to dress as they pleased. While some thought Some thought that wearing the Burqa oppressed women (I don't agree with that), others thought that it was their wish to be fully-clothed head to toe, so what's the problem in that? And I support that. 
Since there is no problem in a woman being covered head to toe, with only her eyes showing, then what is the problem in a girl wearing a bikini. Why are you so hell-bent on taking awya this right of a woman to do as she pleases?

If you say that you don't have a problem with women wearing short clothes, or showing their skin - then banning the media from showing such stuff...what is that going to achieve? In fact it would make it more...apparent that somebody is wearign short clothes, and the girl's character will be constantly questioned if all the media shows is sari-wearing leads, while the men have the freedom to do what they want... 


My replies in red above. 

Yes, I am not going to deny that the media often uses these item songs to sell their movies etc, however in my opinion, I don't think that's an excuse for rape at all. If your sole argument is that the media should stop portraying women in a vulgar way - fair enough, but if your argument is that because women are protrayed in a vulgar way, rape occurs - I am not going to support that at all. 

Media uses to sell their product depending on their target audience. 

For women, they are not as sexual/visual as men are, and therefore a lot of ads that are targeted towards them are not really sexually charged. However I have come across every ad here and there where the sexual innuendos (against men) are so much that it can make a woman blush, but it does its job right and it sells the product. 
Ads where there is a focus on the "size" of a man's thing, or where the centre of attention is whether a woman gets her pleasure from a man - so women are not the only ones who are subjected to the bad end of the media. 

Also men who are flexing and stripping shirtless on a screen - such as John Abraham in Dostana - do you think they do it because they want to show the men their muscular body? Um no, they do it because it attracts the woman's eye. 

Does that mean that the fact a man is showing his body in movies is a reason enough that men are raped?

what about children? Surely a person dancing and stripping in the movies has nothing to do with a child (who hasn't even hit puberty) to be sexually abused? What about them?

Yes, the media does project women in an unfavourable light, and yes I agree sometimes it gets too much. The song 'fevicol se' made me cringe - however if some man came out and said "Kareena danced to fevicol se, therefore I decided to rape" I would slap that man and tell him to stop putting the blame on other factors when the real blame lies in the culprit - nobody/nothing else. 

~K


Edited by Krani - 08 May 2013 at 11:09pm

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salta

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