You obviously have not read my previous posts on this topic Firstly, please don't compare me to Mr. Mukherjee. I never said anything about the sex or the appearance of the protesters.
Secondly, I am only against death penalty because of the futility of it and because experts have said that it will lead to killing of rape victims. I advocated at least 25 years in prison and chemical castration in my earlier posts.
i do agree that i have not read your previous posts, but you commented that the protesters are hypocrits who in their own homes dont respect females.
mukherjee also said that the protesters go to bars after candle marches... so i found the statements similer... i only said this. i never said that u r like him etc etc... just said that your statement reminds me of his views... and i still maintain that.
like him... if we are just too concerned about who is protesting... why is he protesting and what he/she does or does not do later... in all these questions we just move away from the real issue... i just said this.
The reason why I talked about Dalits and sex workers is because we-the unbiased people who can debate on this topic-constitute only 10-15% of the country. The vast majority of the country is prejudiced. I'm not suggesting that we should keep quiet till this matter is resolved. I'm just saying, solidarity should be extended to all women, not just the ones who we can identify with.
see, this 10-15% people are important. even in freedom struggle... whole of the population was not against britishers... it was 10-15% only. majority was indifferent at that time too.
in sociology, we do study... why india or world never had any feminist social movement. you have anti-dalit mov... anti apartheid... communist revolution etc etc... but why is it that we never had a womens movement anywhere in the world? today, you are pointing out that its only 10-15% women who are united... rest are not... but you should also see that 10-15 yrs ago... it was still less. i remember my grandmother crying before my mom coz my cousin's eyesight decrearsed and she had started wearing specs...!!!! apparently she thought that the girls who wear specs are not desired by the suiters. i was a kid at that time... but i clearly remember the incident beause i was totally confused about the fuss! today... far less people are concerned about that. my point is... that change will come... but not overnight. although desiring that all females should be united is acceptable... but keeping it as a precondition for success is a fallacy.
I agree with you that harsh laws will repress the citizens into behaving responsibly. But as a woman, I find it frankly insulting that a man will not rape me just out of 'fear he will be castrated' and not because he genuinely respects me. Yes, I'll be grateful for being alive-now don't accuse of me of wanting to an idealistic society more than wanting to not be rapedHarsh laws should be introduced, but there should be education alongside because 'prevention is better than cure'.
the aim is that girls should not be raped... i dont care due to respect ... or fear...
frankly.. sociopathic personality are always there... and if you want that everyone should respect you ... sorry... not gonna happen ever! basically... you have accepted everything i was saying... with just adding that few other things are also desirable....
i am not saying that education is not needed... or that only laws will prevent rapes... i am not saying that boys should not respect me...
see, the debate shall tangent off to a completely different level... because if you say that education will prevent rapes... then rapes happen even in educated masses...
sorry to say but there is no instrument to scan and tell u wheather or not a man is respecting you ... or is scared of you or law.. that is why he is not making a pass at you!
i am strictly adhering to this case only...
in "this" case... the police patroling vehicles were sitting ducks... in "this" case the bus took 6-10 u-turns on the same lane... before these vans... but police never thought it was suspicious... in "this" case... the accused had pre-planned to pick up a female and rape her when they started the joy-ride... in "this" case they were confident that they wont be caught and nothing shall happen!
see, point is... that a person... obeys laws.. why? does he do it coz he is educated...or coz he fears punishment... or any other reason...? the end result is that you obey laws... does not matter why!
Also you said that 'this case will fizzle out'...once again I agree..The government is paying attention to this case only because of widespread public outrage..but what about the victims in Punjab...tribal girls in hostels...Will we have to hold candle marches at India gate the rest of our life each time we want the government to get our attention?
i am from punjab... and u can google and see that "tribal population in punjab is ...0.00"
there are no tribals in punjab... let alone them being raped...
yes.. there was a case in which the rape victim was harassed by police so much that she comitted suicide... and we had to protest! you like it or not... you have to protest to get yourself heard...
there is a saying in punjabi... "bina roye to maa bhi doodh nahi pilaati..."... i hope you are getting what i mean to say here. our government is deaf.. corrupt... etc etc... we are unlucky to be born here... blah blah...
if you dont like something... you have to make an effort... thats plain and simple!
either get what you like... or like what you get!
At the end of the day we have to realize that the government will not do anything...the laws you are talking about will take time to come into place..and look at the way the government frames laws! They call molestation 'eve-teasing'..they talk about rape as 'infringing modesty of woman'..once again the whole concept of a woman's honour and modesty being associated with her body comes into place...as if rape victims have no dignity. Look at the way people talk: Her life is destroyed, she is zinda laash, etc, etc.
if you accept.. "oh the government wont do anything..." that is accepting the defeat!
take case of mukherjee.. was he not forced to apologise because of the outrage????
was not the government more careful because it feared backlash?
and u are saying that the others are referring her as zinda lash...
but read this very column... someone was saying that she did not have presence of mind that day... she should have called the police before fighting the rapists! how naive this sounds?
for her info (who wrote this comment) those rapists took away her mobiles soon after they started teasing her... a rapist is not going to watch you smiling while you make a call to police!
the irony is... that females... be it educated or illiterate... will always and always look at faults in the female raped... blame her clothes... or "lack of presence of mind"... or carelessness... etc etc. do u think that this girl who wrote this is not educated enough? or that she does not have the right mentality... etc etc?
Filing a PIL, harsh punishments-there is NOTHING wrong with it. These are all good in their own way. But more than legal recourse, we should think about social recourse.
Because for legal recourse we have to fold our hands and prostrate before judges or we have to shout angry slogans at politicians. Once again NOTHING wrong with protesting-but people lose energy too quickly. Many people don't have the courage to end what they started.
But social recourse? It can be done by the smallest of things.
if you think that social change is brought about by only changing the mindset... you are sadly mistaken! all social change.. ALL OF IT... has happened only and only due to laws! u tell me any social evil, which just died out... without any change of law! take any eg... any! be it female education.. or abolishing untouchability... or right to property for females...
till they became laws... the significant change did not happen!
the government will always want a status quo... so will the majority of people... u are responsible for your own behaviour... you cant change anyone else's behaviour by your own good behaviour ... no matter how great it is!
Next time you are telling somebody to be strong, don't tell them to be 'man'and if you think they're weak, don't say 'you're being a girl'. If somebody makes fun of a boy for crying, defend him. Don't call the girls in your class who wear skirts and have boyfriends 's**ts' and 'bimbos'.
again refer to my previous point... if i dont call anyone s**t or characterless etc etc... that is not going to shut the mouth of everyone else in college! change of behaviour etc sounds good... but in the EXTREME condition... when a rapist .. with wrong behaviour is about to rape some one... what stops him at THAT POINT???? that is the issue. these things which you say... are good additional measures... but if u say that ultimately only this will bring a social change in india and shall bring respect for females... sorry to point it out... its not gonna happen!
have you thought that if there had not been a law that allows you right to education... livelyhood and property etc... would you still have been sitting here and debating with me? the social recourse which you desire... i desire... is not going to come voluntarily...! the government... or police... or "male chauvenists" are not going to give up a situation which is favourable to them... just like that!
I am against the casual attitude of police. But where does it come from? Think to yourself. Mindset of society! Policemen are not aliens from Mars! They are brought up in India, so obviously they will talk the way Indians talk! You tie rapists to a pole and throw stones at them. It will instil fear into people-definitely. But will it stop them from secretly sympathizing with the rapist?
please point out when did i say k tie the rapists and throw stones? i never said k police are aliens or that they are not part of society! even the leaders are indians... right? not britishers who are siphoning off the wealth and selling the concerns of the nation... right?
it again comes back to my earlier point. why is it that only indian leaders can dare this sort of corruption? you shall be shocked... times magazine's list of 100 MOST NOTORIOUS PEOPLE OF THE WORD...no.1 was gaddaffi... and no.2 was A. RAJA... and to think of it that this man is out of jail today.. left by our own courts...!!
i ask u very frankly... you are a law abiding citizen... never cross the red light signal... ok!
but imagine... you sre travelling in a remote area... u know that no policeman is watching you.. u are in a hurry... u are sure k u wont be caught... would u still not cross the red light?
now please dont tell me that u have never ever done anything wrong... voluntarily... even despite being 100% sure that u wont be caught! sometimes... you might do it... but sometimes YOU WILL BREAK THE LAW! everyone will! this is my whole point!
if the police... the rapists... the government... or the people... will think that they can get away with it... then they will do it! no one voluntarily gives away the power... no amount of education or ethics will protect lawlessness... thats the point!
Imagine a situation where the police are given strict guidelines to treat all rape victims with sympathy and to arrest all offenders. Harshest punishments are handed down by the courts. No appeals, no bail. WOW-perfect right? But then imagine the situation when the rape victim goes home, feeling happy because the court and the police were so 'fair' and 'strict'. At home, the rapist's family is busy spreading rumors about 'How that woman of loose morals killed my son'. Neighbours give her suspicious looks. No boy wants to marry her. Remember: This might not happen in Delhi and Mumbai, but definitely in the villages and other places.
see, even before a fair law is made... we are more concerned about its misuse!
you think... that a son rips off the intestines of victim... and the society shall blame the victim for having loose morels? please re-read what you just wrote! i dont know about other mothers... but in "this" case... the parents of one accused have themselves demanded their son to be hanged for what he did. villages of india... are different. they blame girls always... thats true. but i was born in a village... my parents always lived in village.. my grandfather had a farm and a cotton celler... now you tell me... initially indian law did not allow sons to indulge in an occupation away from father... there was no right to property for son... etc...
if those laws had continued... would my father have been able to move to a city? he would have been a farmer his whole life!
indian population in villages- 95% in 1947... and in 2012- 70%. how do u think this happened?
lastly... india has very strict dowery prevention laws.. right? read section 498 of indian dowery act... "NO BAIL FOR THE ACCUSED ... THE ACCUSED HAS TO PROOVE THAT HE DID NOT TAKE/DEMAND DOWERY... THE ALLEGATION OF HARASSMENT CAN BE MADE BY GIRL EVEN AFTER UPTO 7 YRS OF DIVORCE..."..
one side of the story... the dowery deaths still happen.. etc etc...!
secondly... the law is misused... false cases etc...
but this law did help in decreasing the rampant dowery murders which were happening in india! i am not saying that now its zero... but i am not saying that the law did not change anything!
What's the use of harsh punishments, if people's mentality doesn't change? That is exactly what I've been trying to say so far. You think I am against protests and speaking up. If I was against speaking up, why the hell would I be posting anything on this thread?
Everybody is NOT a criminal-fine, sorry if you felt my tone was accusatory. I didn't mean to offend you. But you seem to be a sociology student. So you should know about the evils of this anti-women culture and society. What I'm trying to say is that at the end of the day, whether you finally have death penalty, or you torture the rapists, or whatever-the struggle should NOT end there. It's just the beginning..
see, the whole point is... how does social change occour? if you have read history... or google it...
ishwar chandra vidya sagar... remarried a widow... opened a widow home... etc etc... a great social reformer... but did widow remarriage in india start because of him? sadly... NO! it started after the law was made.
and you did not offend me dear... why should i be offended? you dont know me! i am not even a sociology student... m a doc!
if u are asking me the use of harsh punishment... i think i have sufficiently explained it to you!
how many people will not commit a crime despite being 100% sure that nothing shall happen to them? if you think about this... you'll get my point! that is the use of law... even if mentality does not change!
today,.. in cities.. people dont practice untouchability. you go to a restaurant.. u dont ask the caste of waiter before he serves you food... right? it would be fair to say that your mentality has changed.. right??? but do you think that 50 yrs ago... the people of india ... all became so educated and cultured.. that they said..."oh untouchability is so bad... lets not do it now!"... and indian cities considerably stopped practicing it!!!!
no dear freind!!! it was because of the laws... people were forced to accept... and now... after so many years... you can claim that you dont practice untouchability!!!
the only reason i ranted out here was that you seem to under-estimate the value of stringent punishment! i never said... BURN THEM ON ROAD... STONE THEM ON ROAD... HANG THEM PUBLICALLY ... etc etc...
i am only saying... that such people should be afraid that they'll be caught... the police should be concerned that something is fishy... the leaders should not make irresponsible statements...
you might think that idealistically speaking... the mentality should change...
i agree! but this is not an idealistic world! the real world does not voluntarily change!
you have to force the change...