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Debate : Who is Respnsible? (Page 11)

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-Alina.

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-Alina.

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Posted: 13 January 2013 at 10:22am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Angel-Jot.

Rape is rape. Women dressing provocatively is not an excuse to okay rape. Merely touching someone inappropriately without their permission is unacceptable, rape is out of the question. In a democracy, women should have the freedom to wear what they want, say what they want, go where they want without worrying about getting raped. I'd say it's the mentality and the culture to be blamed. For centuries, men have been considered above women. Women are supposed to be owned by men and clearly, this mentality still exists in society even today.


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meghasingh

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Posted: 13 January 2013 at 10:33am | IP Logged

 
And there's no denying that the middle class is apathetic most of the time. The rape victim was a middle-class educated professional, that's why people were so enraged. What about Dalits and sex workers. You will find around one-fourth of  the people who were so 'enraged' will suddenly shut their mouths.
-indigoblues.


@indigoblues...so true... you know I'm too much sensitive on any issue connected to women, so to this gang rape too. It bothered me more bcz the statements and comments after the incident...short clothes, late night plans, this and that. Now i do wear mini skirts, shorts, like late night parties...so do i deserve to get raped...?? so this case horrified me beyond limits... so by any means i am not saying that what happened with her was something which is acceptable or some light matter.

But now coming to sex workers and dalits...how many time one talk and debate over these groups... in some rural areas it's common that the lower caste women are raped, and there's hardly any complain against the wrong doers, and it hardly gains any attention. and sex workers...if u know then the worst u can call a woman is the word for a woman sex worker...so people will even think abt them...forget it.

Now to everyone, in india 99.9% people are nothing but hypocrite group of people... everyone is saying that rape is wrong, but many with a remark she shouldn't had gone out late night...wow...

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Posted: 13 January 2013 at 10:42am | IP Logged
@dude81...it's impossible that govt. can change everything...a basic example...luckily all the men and guys(talking abt whom i love, admire and attached to)...be it my dad, cousin, friends...anyone, do accept that women are equal to men, and so anything like this is not acceptable in any case...on the other hand i encounter many people that women should remain in their limits or "dehlij"...it's the difference bw the upbringing.
upbringing has nothing to do with the scams and all, even if poverty is abolished...hey one thing...do u think that the upper class really consider women as equal..??sorry not the case.
so govt is not gonna change, it's only us which can do anything.

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Gudiyalovesguru

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Posted: 13 January 2013 at 10:55am | IP Logged
I really felt ashamed of gange rape...
it arises the question about women safety in india...
Sad but it is true that we women are not safe in our own country...
In oneside people worshiping women as a god, other side she is being tortured,gangraped, brutally killed...
but our government is simply watching Mrs.Gandhi came out and tried to convince the crowd,its not out of concern its just because of pressure.
Some people are against death sentence for those monsters.
Does they know the pain of being raped??????
Does they know the pain of throwd away nude from the bus?????
No, they just know to convince the people...
Within tendays a school girl in pondicherry had been raped.
But still our government didnt take neccessary steps to ensure our safety...
After delhi rape i felt how much god disgusted about his own creation.

our goverment is responsible,our law makers are responsible,our law is responsible.
I want to make a clear point on dressing.
Dressing is our own birthright,no one i mean no one shouldnt be pass dirty comment about dressings.


Edited by ashvinisharma - 13 January 2013 at 10:56am

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dude81

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Posted: 13 January 2013 at 1:41pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by IndigoBlues

Originally posted by dude81

so what should be done????? let them enjoy secured peaceful life??????
it is sooo easy to preach that the culprits should not be tortured... humanity... blah blah!!!
i just wish... once... for once... people try and empathetically view the girl and her family...
try and step in her shoes, her mom's shoes... her father-brothers shoes... god-forbid she could hav been you, or your sis... even then u would have said kepunishing the culprits is barbaric????
today you say candle marches are not cunstructive enough... well then what is?????
i agree that rape is an act of domination... so is ragging (although its miniscule before rape)... but dont we try to protect it????
and what police are you defending???? was the police understaffed when it wqas lathi charging the protesters?????
if they are underpaid... then should we add to their salaries????? understaffed???? if goverment does not wish to recruit police... then what should youth do???? forcefully recruit themselves???? and the police that is there... the laws for them were made in 1861... have not been revised so far... 65 yrs after independance... police reforms yet to see the light of the day!!!!
you find middle class self-righteous?????? let me enlighten you!
do you have any idea about the corruption in this country... so so so many scams...
forget all scams... just consider the value of cwg+2g. you know... if this amount instead of being skimmed off to swiss banks was distributed among indians...EACH INDIAN WOULD HAVE GOT 5 LAKH RS...  whole poverty of india... gone!!! it is mind boggling!!!!
when the government has to recruit police, doctors, teachers etc... open colleges... then government says we dont have enough money but does not bat an eyelid while giving corores of rs to industrialists as tax redumptions?????
which people attend the meetings of politicians... u think that most of middle class does it??? have u seen the rallies???? do i need to tell u what is the crowd there?????
my sociology teacher was once saying that in india, nothing is impossible! if government wants... within days it can remove poverty, caste system... corruption ... illitracy etc..!!!! b ut govt does not do so because they know that educated masses will first and foremost challange them only!
this is so true!
and in the end... the middle class you are accusing... is the sole hope of this country...
the candle marches enforce the solidarity... proove that indians can still get togather and shun selfishness of their jobs...
if thats not constructive for you... i dont see what is constructive then?????
and if u are saying "oh... its too little to late..." then all i can say is little steps make big leaps...
indian goverment would have shamelessly pardoned the'juvenile' who ripped out intestines with his bare hands...
but now they are talking of changing the law...
it takes efforts to come out on streets  and face the lathis of police my freind!!!!!
you cant take a blanket and cover the whole middle class of india...
 
I'm not disrecrediting the Indian middle class..I read newspapers...I know that if it wasn't for the protesters then forget Delhi Gangrape, Jessica Lal, many other cases would have gone unnoticed...I think it was very brave of the people to go against the police and face lathi charge, water cannon, etc...
 
But all said and done, how long can you be angry? How long can you bay for revenge? Is revenge the sole motive? Fine, we tortured the culprits, then what? Once they're dead, what are you gonna do? Return back to your offices and pat yourself on the back thinking 'Yay, they got tortured, justice is served?' some reaction is better than no reaction... and its not about killing hanging these culprits... its the casual treatment of such cases by the officials. if u hav read about this particular case... u must hav read how much planning was done by the rapists... how police was not suspicious of the bus which kept on taking u-turns...
after the incident... repeatedly people remarking.."oh its nothing... hota rehta hai...!!!" this attitude needs to be changed... the authorities need to be shaken up and told "hota tab tak rahe ga jab tak hone de ge..."
frankly... this case will frizzle out..we know... so does every social movement...
be it renaissance or anti-apartheid... so what? dont start anything coz it'll end???? i disagree with this.
 
By the way, I didn't discover the phenonmenon of rape with Delhi Gangrape.I've been reading about it in newspapers for a long time. When I first became mature enough to understand what it was my reaction was the same: 'Rapists are animals. They deserve to be hanged, tortured, etc.' Im a feminist, and the idea of a man raping a woman enraged me. But this is just a knee-jerk reaction. If you research the phenonmenon, you will realize that it goes way beyond just physical assault, it's deeply ingrained in all of us. Will you give everybody death penalty?
as i have mentioned... its not about death panelty... if u think it is... then u r mistaken!
the protests are against the laxity... the casual approach... this is no ajmal kasab whose hanging is being demanded... people out there want serious action... change of law... stricter action...
now here u are saying that strict law wont change anything... then lets not have strict laws...
what purpose will that solve???
 
What I'm trying to say here is that everybody is blaming each other. Everybody is looking for a culprit, or some kind of payback. I think it's more important to focus on reforms. You can think of n number of bloodthirsty punishments, but is that going to stop crime? What we need is results, not revenge.
result are needed... but how to get them? and whats wrong in blaming if some one is actually wrong? should we get hermits from himalyas to blame and point out mistakes?
if some theif defends himself that.."everyone is a theif..." is this a valid defence????
those rapists were not scared that they'll be caught and punished... so criminals should not fear the laws???? is that going to stop the crime?
 
A lot of the people who are speaking out against the issue are hypocrites. If you go and personally interview the people who are protesting, you will find serious differences. A lot of the people who claim to be 'progressive' are actually people who do crimes in their own houses. Holding a candle doesn't make you a saint.
as i said... the defense that everyone is a criminal is no defense...
frankly this idea projected by indian govt is sick...
you ask them about corruption..."everyone is corrupt.."... u ask about communalism... "everyone is communal.."... about gender discrimination..."everyone does it..."
why????? so as per this logic... a supreme court judge trying on a rapist in court has no right to judge him... coz he himself might be a chauvenist... what a lame view!!!!!
and the protestsin my city... i saw majority females... girl students... housewives...
dont mind... but ur views remind me of the sick remark of president's son about these protests...
holding a candle makes no one saint... but does not automatically make u a hypocrit either!
 
But on the other hand, there are those people who have put petitions, who have written articles, who have asked the government to introduce sex education, who have started NGO's and self-defence camps, who have started programmes for reformed harassers to spread awareness-this is what I call action. A lot of the people are just screaming 'Death penalty, death penalty' like it solves everything.
yeah... such people are there... working for gender equality... so only this is the right way... rest everything wrong????
i dont know about supporting death panelty... but let me tell u...
harsh punishments and strict laws serve two funtions... "repressive" and "restitutive"...
repressive for potential criminals...
and restitutive for the enraged masses.. (its sociology, i am not making up these things)
strict action and increased vigilence is not a tonic which shall produce immidiate measurable results...
i beleive that the rapists should have shivers down their spine about what can happen before they think of doing such crime again... i dont think i dont have a right to demand this from my country...
 
 
It's not just a question of humanity. Even practically speaking, death penalty NEVER works. We have death for murder-has it stopped happening? Even in America, where they have lethal injection, a 16 year old girl was raped and dragged from one party to another, and not a single person came forward to help.
as i have remarked... u are taking a very narrow viewpoint...
its not about death for thses criminals... its about increased sensitivity and vigilence by the government and police so that india becomes safer for women...
 
 
And there's no denying that the middle class is apathetic most of the time. The rape victim was a middle-class educated professional, that's why people were so enraged. What about Dalits and sex workers. You will find around one-fourth of  the people who were so 'enraged' will suddenly shut their mouths.
now... this is such a lame view... its not even worth defense... i am actually sad that u wrote it..
u mean to say that had the girl been an uneducated dalit there would have been no protests...
why to drag in an unrelated topic? what about dalits and what about sex workers? u think that dalits dont protest??? yeah there are dalit problems... so what? till that is resolved everyone should keep mum and dare not speak about any other wrong?????
 
I'm not absolving government of the blame either. But everybody knows our government is corrupt. It's nothing new.
 
 
Crime doesn't belong to a particular class bracket. It is a result of widespread social malaises such as patriarchy. All I'm trying to say here is that baying for blood or trying to 'Find out who's responsible' doesn't solve the problem. Engaging in active reform does. At the end of the day, we have to return to the 'selfishness' of our jobs. The solution lies finding a way to fulfill our social duties regardless of other constraints.
who says that crime belongs to a particular social bracket...????
and what active reforms are u talking about?
frankly people need to shun the thinking"my way or highway"...
what i think is right... what i think is correct way of doing things... THAT IS THE ONLY CORRECT WAY... rest everyrthing is useless and wont serve any purpose...!!!!
u see any reform... any change... there are a number of people doing things differently and contributing in their own way...
if i say that i am protesting on road and the person filing PIL in court is a fool... coz that wont change anything... then i am wrong! and this is how u r wrong...
our social duties also demand us to show solidarity for a just cause...
already we people tolerate just too much... its high time one puts the foot down!
 
 

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-Alina.

dude81

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dude81

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Posted: 13 January 2013 at 1:57pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by meghasingh

@dude81...it's impossible that govt. can change everything...a basic example...luckily all the men and guys(talking abt whom i love, admire and attached to)...be it my dad, cousin, friends...anyone, do accept that women are equal to men, and so anything like this is not acceptable in any case...on the other hand i encounter many people that women should remain in their limits or "dehlij"...it's the difference bw the upbringing.
upbringing has nothing to do with the scams and all, even if poverty is abolished...hey one thing...do u think that the upper class really consider women as equal..??sorry not the case.
so govt is not gonna change, it's only us which can do anything.
the poverty and all was just an example about the wrot in governance... i never said that scams are causing rapes...
i just mean to say... that every evil... EVERY... will increase if there is no fear in the minds of criminals... be it rape... corruption... terrorism...
why do we have to absolve every effort saying "its useless" even before started????
if one person... celebrates lohri for the birts of daughter...(its traditionally celebrated only if a boy is born)... hundreds of people will make grimace and say... "whats going to change by this?"
if u fight a case in india againt some stupid law... people will say..."court cases wont solve anything..."... why?????
so some people beleive that women should not step out of dehleej ... means i loose the right to question the government?????
you demand strict anti corruption laws... people pounce on you saying..."that wont eradicate corruption.."
u demand strict anti-rape laws... "that wont prevent rapes..."
every law in constitution is broken... so that means k dont have a constitution?????
you are saying... that each and every person of india should beleive in gender equality then rape wont happen... is that not utopia????? is that even possible?????
it just happens that any instant you try to point out anyone's mistake... the other person replies..."first look at urself... first get rid of ur own evils..."...
this defence is not going to solve anything either...

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KhotaSikaShreya

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KhotaSikaShreya

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Posted: 13 January 2013 at 5:14pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by -Grace-

Im not blaming women in general or liberal at all but just saying that it all depends on the intention women or men (women actually dressing for attention now i dont know how much of that is true)

and i said even if they are dressing for attention its not a crime i think that is human nature to attract and get attracted but the rapists should have some control 

and i also live in Canada and i too feel women are not so safe anywhere. 
And i see your point too, usually women are the ones blamed


I'm not blaming women either. I'm saying that women are blamed all the time. We wear liberal clothing, we're to blame. We are outside after 10PM, we're to blame. We smile, we're to blame. For god's sake why are we to blame?!!!!

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Shailesh_Rathi

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Posted: 13 January 2013 at 8:21pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by KS_Shreya

Originally posted by -najmeen-

Rape is unforgivable crime .Some blame the woman , some blame the man and some strangely blame the fate .Its a cluster of reasons which lead to a criminal awakening of  rape.


Dis-respect to women

Well living in an Indian society made me realize how so ever bend they make the rules towards women ,its not going to help unless the normal people start respecting woman.Today the situation is such that we women cant go back home with full confidence that we will be back home safe. Why is woman not given the respect she deserves? Man,whether they say or not ,they consider women beneath them. According to a engineering student(3rd year-senior of mine) he thinks women are made for manly pleasure. Dis respect to women is written all over his words.

Still asking the women to change,not the men
why are the great so called 'swami's' and politicians after women asking them to wear cultural dresses? Why cant we wear the dress we prefer? Do we go and harass men if they are walking on road without a shirt ? Then why cant men follow the same path and let us live our life? Even women wearing salwar suits are raped, why dont we have anyone asking the men not to bother women?

Women are asked not to go out after 7 PM . Firstly , dont rape occur in morning? what is the fault of the girl? Did she go to the guy asking to rape? If a parent has two children one child is mischievous and other is polite , the mischievous one creates problem ,parents scold the mischievous child and take him into the right path .Right? why dosnt this rule apply in rape cases? Why cant the society ask the men not to go out since they are the problem creaters?


Society is not bothered

The whole society is protesting against the delhi rape victim's death , still rapes are happening in this society. People are not bothered to go on the realistic side. The victim was on road bleeding without any help for around 2 hours. Its time for the society to let the action speak rather than the wordly protest.

Lenient rules.
When the crime is so big, why are the rules so culprit sided? why is it that raping and going for a 14 year jail period coming back seem such a simple process?  Some one said it right ,"If the girl was sent to Singapore for better treatment ,the culprits should be sent to Saudi Arabia for better punishment"




You said everything so well. Much of what I wished to say has been said by you.

The worst part is that the society wasn't bothered to help. For 2 hours, these 2 victims lay there and people just walked past them. Where's the justice in that? If only there was a way to identify these people who left them to die. They should be punished as well!

Well said. 

I used to wonder if it was the common public mentality that was to blame. But this incident has affected us, the indian public quite strongly. 

Now after reading comments by politicians, am wondering is it due to the fact that the ones who are supposed to be advocating women protection laws and their safety are indulging in these crimes...no wonder then, their attitude shows no respect or sympathy.  Policemen who take consistently good action get transferred...they are used as scapegoats by both common public and politicians.  Judges too have gotten transferred or are made to quit.  Those committing the crimes are getting more and more comfortable doing so Angry

Even the women who made it big in political circles has had someone else backing her up...have very rarely seen women politicians taking a strong stand. most often, they are found agreeing to what's already been said and been backed up by a senior/male politician.  

In reality, most people are used to seeing women retreating away in shame due to these kind of rapes. no one expected someone to strongly fight back as done by the Delhi girl.  Even in mainstream cinema, the women are left crying or commit suicide.  Out of sight, Out of mind.  

In addition, poverty and lack of adequate infrastructure have broken down the moral values over time.  Am happy that at least now more and more women are not afraid to voice their complaints and that crimes are getting reported (instead of being swept away under the carpet).  That is the first crucial step.


Edited by newbie2011 - 13 January 2013 at 8:22pm

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